Any Mary-worshippers here?

[Kathryn]

I don't have a problem with worshiping Mary. That aside, the Roman Catholic church does not teach worship of Mary, but veneration. She is venerated more than anyone other than God.

Granted, from an outsider's perspective, many Catholic practices of veneration and devotion to the Virgin Mary look like worship to me under a different name. But the official doctrine of the Catholic Church is that the Virgin Mary is not to be worshiped. Many Protestants are not aware of that.

I am a former Catholic, one who still has a lot of respect for many RCC teachings. I also know that a synonym for "veneration" is "worship." What I saw in the RCC was a lot of Mary WORSHIP rather than simply adoration or devotion.

One other problem I had was that the Mary is called the Mediatrix between God and man. I Tim 2:5 tells us that there is only one Mediator between God and man - the man Jesus Christ.

 

[Requia]

Two words being synonyms does not mean they have the same definition, but that they have similar ones. Worship and veneration are not the same thing.

Timothy also tells us that a woman should not presume to teach a man. It's not really the best source for these things.

 

[Renji]

For me, Catholics aren't worshipping Mary, but rather honoring her. If it wasn't because of her "fiat" then Jesus, the savior of mankind will not be incarnated as a man. Any moment Mary could say "no, I don't want to conceive Him in my womb", but instead, she said yes, "fiat voluntas tua". That's why the Catholics venerate her

 

[Kathryn]

I don't have a problem with anyone honoring Mary, or even showing devotion to her as an example of the epitome of womanhood.

But I do have a problem with anyone worshipping her, and some of what I have seen seems to fall into that category. That's all I'm saying.

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Two words being synonyms does not mean they have the same definition, but that they have similar ones. Worship and veneration are not the same thing.

Honestly, the best thing is to keep to the Latin terms. I find it creates less confusion.

Dulia, Hyperdulia, Latreia.

 

[Renji]

I don't have a problem with anyone honoring Mary, or even showing devotion to her as an example of the epitome of womanhood.

But I do have a problem with anyone worshipping her, and some of what I have seen seems to fall into that category. That's all I'm saying.

I agree, she's a good icon on womanhood and humility. But you know what, I don't see any problem with any churches' doctrine in venerating Mary. Sometimes, the problem is not the doctrine( of a particular sect) itself but the people attending the Church and how they interpret/ perceive a particular teaching.

 

[Kathryn]

I love Mary. I have a beautiful figurine of her that sits beside my bed. I have a lovely medieval-era print of Mary that is framed and hanging in my guestroom - and I hang it above my fireplace during Advent.

I was wrong about the catechism - it doesn't say to worship Mary, it does say to venerate Mary.

There's a very thin line between worship, adoration, and veneration, though, and what I've seen from some Maryian zealots is so over the top that it's very hard to tell the difference - and I'm not even sure that THEY could articulate the difference, or that they even know or care that they should not worship Mary.

 

[Antiochian]

I love Mary. I have a beautiful figurine of her that sits beside my bed. I have a lovely medieval-era print of Mary that is framed and hanging in my guestroom - and I hang it above my fireplace during Advent.

I was wrong about the catechism - it doesn't say to worship Mary, it does say to venerate Mary.

There's a very thin line between worship, adoration, and veneration, though, and what I've seen from some Maryian zealots is so over the top that it's very hard to tell the difference - and I'm not even sure that THEY could articulate the difference, or that they even know or care that they should not worship Mary.

Who or what people worship isn't really all that important to me. If people worship Mary as a goddess, that's their priviledge. Most Wiccans would say that the divine is in all of us, so Mary wouldn't be excluded.

What's interesting is that the reformer Martin Luther was devoted to Mary till the end of his life. He rejected the papacy and other doctrines, but never rejected marian devotion. Most Lutherans in America, at least, don't seem to be aware of this, because she's never mentioned except at Christmas--as is the case with most Protestants.

Then you have those Catholics who go nuts anytime someone claims to see Mary in a corn field... The accounts of Fatima, Lourdes, and Medjugorje make interesting reading. In my opinion, Medjugorje is definitely bogus. But I digress...

In one of her ongoing apparitions, somewhere in Africa (Zimbabwe??), Mary affirmed people of all religions as her children. Interesting.

 

[EverChanging]

I agree that some Catholics are indeed worshiping Mary in practice, if not in name, but it's not a problem to me.

As for one mediator between Christ and men....It is understood among Catholics, the Orthodox, and according to one Anglican document I've read by a committee under the Archbishop of Canterbury, that the Virgin Mary plays a role in bringing us to Christ as the Mother of God, just as a friend in your own life may have led you to Christianity, and it is in this sense that the Virgin Mary is a mediatrix, but it is only Christ that is our unique mediator. This is something I've read about the Eastern Orthodox, and the document I read was signed by Catholic bishops as well. So Christ is the unique mediator because he is God incarnate. The Virgin Mary is the unique mediatrix in that she brought Christ into the world and made salvation possible, but she is not the mediarix in the same way that Christ is. That is how many Anglicans, the Roman Catholics, and the Orthodox understand this.

 

[EverChanging]

This is the document I mentioned. It explains Mary's role in the economy of grace and how Christ as the only mediator is understood. This was produced by Anglicans and Roman Catholics together in agreement.

Mary: Grace and Hope in Christ

 

[Kathryn]

That's all well and good but as much as I respect and admire Mary, I am very uncomfortable when I see people kneel in front of her statue, pray to her, leave flowers, etc. and then walk right past the crucifix without a glance or a prayer to our Lord. Seems like a bit too much emphasis on Mary at the expense of Jesus. And it definitely seems like worship to me.

It's their business of course, but as a former Catholic I can tell you that what I saw for all those years from many practicing Catholics was absolutely indistinguishable from true worship.

And I know all the arguments about mediatrixes and veneration - I used them myself as a Roman Catholic. But actions speak louder than words unfortunately.

 

[EverChanging]

That's all well and good but as much as I respect and admire Mary, I am very uncomfortable when I see people kneel in front of her statue, pray to her, leave flowers, etc. and then walk right past the crucifix without a glance or a prayer to our Lord. Seems like a bit too much emphasis on Mary at the expense of Jesus. And it definitely seems like worship to me.

It's their business of course, but as a former Catholic I can tell you that what I saw for all those years from many practicing Catholics was absolutely indistinguishable from true worship.

And I know all the arguments about mediatrixes and veneration - I used them myself as a Roman Catholic. But actions speak louder than words unfortunately.

You aren't going to find many people on a Christian Wiccan forum who have a problem with Mary worship or goddess worship in general. All deities reflect our humanity in some way. All deities are ultimately a reflection of one reality. In my opinion, worship or veneration of Mary is worship of Christ. The Virgin Mary is Christ in a feminine form. These stories are myths, not fact, and I read them accordingly.

 

[Nightingveil]

Just a returning member (I posted as Fate earlier in this thread, but for personal reasons had to change screen names on many forums).

I was never Catholic, and though the catechism states veneration, many Catholics (women especially) do more than honor Mary as the son of Jesus. This is especially pervasive in some of the areas along the Gulf Coast where I grew up or from families of Iberian descent. In her books Green Witchcraft I, II, and III, Aoumiel details about these practices by her mother and grandmother. My BA was in Portuguese and Brazilian history, and it was fairly common to mix Mary and what Americans would define as witchcraft, into everyday religious practices.

I would consider myself a Mary-worshiping Hellenic Pagan Spiritualist. It's a motley grouping, but it's been my path since I was a child, long before I had labels. I don't honor Mary as just Sophia or particularly as the mother of Jesus (as I don't believe he was an historical figure, simply another god that died, and was brought back in the cycle of the year).

I'm currently working on another article about Philomarianism/Collyridianism/Mary-Worshiping, and I am moving some of my website content into a blog for ease of updates. Back when I started the site, Blogger didn't have all the shiny features it does now.

 

[glenn3land]

Just run into this site again today and several of the messages on this thread. Several of them are very good. I am also what could be called a Mary worshiper though she shares that worship with Isis who I believe is all goddesses including the Biblical Sophia, the Holy Spirit and thus Mary. Question. Nightingveil, You said that you have a blog. Could you sent the link to it?
Glenn

 

[Nightingveil]

Mary and Isis actually share a lot of attributes. It's believed that many of the portraits and statues of Mary holding Jesus are directly related to statues of Isis and the Baby Horus. This is also related possibly to the Black Madonna phenomenon in France, Poland, Spain, Russia, and several other European countries. They are also both referred to as Queens of Heaven, share the dove as a symbol, etc.

The blog is brand new, so only two posts up right now, along with about fifty links to various favorite sites. I don't think I can post links here yet, because of the requirement on posts before you can, but it's TheGrayVeil at Blogger.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Some may call me a Mary worshiper for the way I venerate her as part of my Gnosticism. I also venerate Jesus the same way though. I view Mary as having been an avatar of a goddess and Jesus as a god.

 

[diosangpastol]

the reason Mary was proclaimed by the Catholic church as the Immaculate Conception is because she is believed to have been born without sin. Why? because she is to carry Jesus Christ for 9 months and thus she has to be spotless. Here is the biblical basis; St Gabriel's greeting to Mary before she conceived Jesus was," Hail Mary FULL OF GRACE, the Lord is with you". What does full of grace meant? When you have a cup that is full of water, is there space for additional water, none, right? So Mary who is full to the top of grace has no sin, no original sin. What are the causes of sins; greed, pride, laziness, etc. Mary does not have those tendencies. God has already protected her from all those tendencies, she was favored by God. So those who accuse us Catholics of favoring her more than Jesus Christ are all wrong. Mary does not have pride, greed. She will bring all prayers to her Son, Jesus Christ. Lastly, if we believe that the Holy Spirit continues to guide us to the truth up to now as the Bible has said, well read the story of St. Bernadeth, Bernadeth asked Mary who she was during Mary's apparition, Mary said, I AM THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION, Bernadeth did not know anything about that teaching of the church and the Catholic church at that time did not proclaim Mary as the Immaculate conception. As the story went...... with all the troubles the church was suffering caused by the apparition of Mary to Bernadeth, the bishop asked Bernadeth to ask the lady who she is. Many believed the lady came from the devil but Bernadeth said no adamantly, it cannot be from the devil since she is so beautiful, clothed with the sun, so kind, so understanding, so gentle. Bernadeth who was a little forgetful did not want to forget the lady's name so she said the words over and over, I am the Immaculate Conception, till she arrived to the place of the bishop. The bishop was amazed because at that time the church was debating if Mary should be proclaimed the Immaculate conception. See, the story of Bernadeth is a great great evidence that the Holy Spirit continues to guide the church up to now to all truths, wether you non- Catholics believe it or not.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The fact is that the Blessed Mother has always been venerated from the very beginnings of the early church. Any serious research into early Christianity will bear this out. In Gnosticism she was sometimes venerated as a goddess or as the Holy Spirit itself. These ideas didn't leave just because Orthodoxy became the dominant sect, because Orthodoxy had these ideas too.

The conversion of many early political leaders to Christianity was often attributed to the blessed Mother, including that of Clovis. Hence, earning the idea among Catholics that Mary "points to her son". If we want to be honest, Mary veneration isn't new and isn't really a Catholic invention.

 

[diosangpastol]

I am a former Catholic, one who still has a lot of respect for many RCC teachings. I also know that a synonym for "veneration" is "worship." What I saw in the RCC was a lot of Mary WORSHIP rather than simply adoration or devotion.

People doing such things doesn't necessarily mean it is taught or even encouraged. On the part of the Catholic Church, what should be done is to remind people what the proper role Mary and the saints have in the Church.

One other problem I had was that the Mary is called the Mediatrix between God and man. I Tim 2:5 tells us that there is only one Mediator between God and man - the man Jesus Christ.

It does say that Jesus is the mediator between God and man; however, is there anything in Scripture that says that specifically states that there shouldn't be any any mediator between Jesus and man?

 

[diosangpastol]

Mary and Isis actually share a lot of attributes. It's believed that many of the portraits and statues of Mary holding Jesus are directly related to statues of Isis and the Baby Horus. This is also related possibly to the Black Madonna phenomenon in France, Poland, Spain, Russia, and several other European countries. They are also both referred to as Queens of Heaven, share the dove as a symbol, etc.

The blog is brand new, so only two posts up right now, along with about fifty links to various favorite sites. I don't think I can post links here yet, because of the requirement on posts before you can, but it's TheGrayVeil at Blogger.

It does not mean that there is a causal relationship involved. Two groups may develop similar beliefs, practices, and artifacts totally independently of each other. The idea that similar forms are always the result of diffusion from a common source has long been rejected by archaeology and anthropology, and for very good reason: Humans are similar to each other and live in similar (i.e., terrestrial) environments, leading them to have similar cultural artifacts and views.

In every culture, there are mothers who hold their children. Sometimes this gets represented in art, including religious art, and it especially is used when a work of art is being done to show the motherhood of an individual. Mother-with child-images do not need to be explained by a theory of diffusion from a common, pagan religious source as you erroneously claim. One need look no further than the fact that mothers holding children is a universal feature of human experience and a convenient way for artists to represent motherhood.