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Any ideas on why some people lend so much meaning to the Theory of Evolution?

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Why was Major Lategan NOT natural?
Is he not part of nature?
He certainly was a biological organism.

As amusing as the reductionist argument that all things are natural therefore there is no unnatural is, it's still a reductionist argument. We already have standing definitions of what natural and artificial is in the context of selection. The two are not the same process.

And you ignored the rest of the post about natural selection not supporting genetic homogeneity, or any genetic ideal or morphological ideal. Which means evolution demonstrably would not support a eugenics position.

Further, descriptive theories are not a prescriptive call to action. I.e. trying to blame a suicide by jumping off a building on the person's education in theory of gravity as another poster put it.

So really all you're doing is the same thing the eugenicist is doing, trying to make ToE into something it's not to further your agenda.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Logically, there is little sense in proselitizers of theism bothering to attempt to "refute" evolution. It is about as reasonable as discussing "belief" in sexual reproduction, thermodynamics, the water cycle, electromagnetism or gravity. Yet the mistake just won't die.

Any ideas on why, or better yet, on how to put the matter to rest so that more relevant subjects may be discussed?
It's actually pretty simple, as well as incredibly difficult to change. Those who deny evolution do so far less out of an actual theology. I has to do with thinking in magical and supernatural terms in general. Their views of the natural world are reflected in their theologies. It's not that the theology causes that view of the natural world, which evolution challenges for them, but that their theology simply reflects that mode of thought in general. It's a mistake to say belief in God causes that. If the mode of thinking about reality in general shifts to a more rational, evidenced based reality, theologies about God shift as well to be consistent with that.

What has to change is that mode of thinking in general, and one's theologies changes along with it. And that is not a matter of presenting evidence and arguments supporting the Theory of Evolution. It has to do with exposing minds to different modes of thinking about reality in general. This of course is a matter of growth enlarging the container of the mind to hold larger, wider, and deeper ways of understanding things. I heard someone comment one time that to try to argue someone to change their entire mindset like this is like screaming at your bones, "Grow!".

Growth happens naturally. And the best we can hope to do is to encourage that growth. For me, I think to show that a belief in God can in fact be held quite comfortably, in fact living within Evolutionary Theory in general (another topic), removes a stumbling block from someone taking those first scary steps into their own uncharted territory of new ways of thinking - something we all do as we mature in every area of our lives. For those to make it a matter of "You can't believe in God and Evolution at the same time", which I hear being said or at the least strongly implied by voices coming out of both sides of theism and atheism, actually can hinder that natural growth.

So my suggestion is more voices from theism and atheism work to encourage people that to advance to more rationalistic approaches to reality does not mean you have to abandon Faith. That would at least communicate to them that they will be able to learn how to reintegrate religious beliefs in a more Modern reality, if that is something important for them. It is more than possible, and in fact should be encouraged, not discouraged by diving truth into two camps only equating theism with supernaturalism, and naturalism with atheism. Belief in God should not be imagined or framed as predicated on anti-intellectualism, nor rationalist reality be imagined or framed as atheistic. Neither held as strictly true is truly matured yet, IMO.
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Thanks for the food for thought, @Windwalker .

I had not considered that. Denial of Evolution not so much as an article of faith, ignorance proper or fear exactly, but rather as a consequence of attachment to magical thought?

That sounds consistent with much of what I have seen. For instance, that frequent appeal to the pseudo-mantra that there must be a cause, or that biological beings are "perfect".

Yes, it makes sense. They are talking about mythical, idealized conceptions of reality, and therefore just fail to realize that the actual facts do not conform to those sanitized fictions.

That also helps explain why there seems to be so little awareness of how unconvincing, even all-out tentative and feeble many of the so-called arguments for anti-evolutionism that are so passionately presented are.

In some unfortunate, extreme circunstances they seem to be so attached that they actually get defensive and hurt when the fantasy of their premises is made difficult to deny. We become "hate speakers", "evilutionists", or the like.

People are indeed responsible for what they believe in, I think. But that does not mean that they are necessarily mature enough to realize or understand their options and the consequences. Some people do in fact choose destructive paths because they can't help themselves out of a need for magical, supernatural thinking.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
People are indeed responsible for what they believe in, I think. But that does not mean that they are necessarily mature enough to realize or understand their options and the consequences. Some people do in fact choose destructive paths because they can't help themselves out of a need for magical, supernatural thinking.
The other thing to add to this is something I have struggled to understand as well, why it is that people who are otherwise living and functioning in a rational, Modern world in other areas of their lives, when it comes to things like the big picture views like God or Evolution that touch on the very nature of our existence itself, that rationality gets laid at the door and a different mode of thinking kicks in - the magical or mythical framework. Are they just pretending to be rational at other times? Are they deliberately checking their minds in at the door when they walk into church or their mosques and revert to pre-rational thought?

The answer seems best explained by those who have realized that there are different "lines of development". Each of those lines follow the same basic stages of growth as the other lines. So in one line, someone may be quite mature, functioning at rational levels. But in another line, they haven't developed that far. So when it comes to faith and God, or the "big-questions", such as the nature of existence and the meaning of life itself, they can be still functioning at early magic and mythic levels. So in dealing with life's daily challenges, "Bob" may be functioning fully using analytical thought, using science and reason, testing and evidence, etc, but when he talks about God, it's the anthropomorphic deity in the sky answering your wishes you ask of him. What it is is they simply haven't developed that line. It's a different channel for thought to integrate. So higher, rational thought has yet to develop in that line. It doesn't happen automatically that once you're rational scientific over here, you're going to be over there. It has to be specifically applied and developed to fit that particular line. In other words, one line does not directly give one the ability to translate another line utilizing those skills. It has to develop within that line itself.

It still perplexes me to try understand that, as you make assumptions that if they know this here, why don't they over there, but this does offer a pretty good reason to explain it. And there is actually research that this is based upon. I believe Howard Gardner is one of the researches who have modeled out some of the various lines of development.

BTW, in regard to what I initially posted, apply that to the "debate" between Bill Nye and Ken Hamm. Perfect example of one using the rational framework taking with someone using a mythic/magical framework. Same words, entirely different realities. They were not arguing science versus faith. They were debating rational versus magical thought. It was the act of that, not the details of the arguments that was the actual debate.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
BTW, in regard to what I initially posted, apply that to the "debate" between Bill Nye and Ken Hamm. Perfect example of one using the rational framework taking with someone using a mythic/magical framework. Same words, entirely different realities. They were not arguing science versus faith. They were debating rational versus magical thought. It was the act of that, not the details of the arguments that was the actual debate.
Sounds just about right - and typical.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
The other thing to add to this is something I have struggled to understand as well, why it is that people who are otherwise living and functioning in a rational, Modern world in other areas of their lives, when it comes to things like the big picture views like God or Evolution that touch on the very nature of our existence itself, that rationality gets laid at the door and a different mode of thinking kicks in - the magical or mythical framework. Are they just pretending to be rational at other times? Are they deliberately checking their minds in at the door when they walk into church or their mosques and revert to pre-rational thought?

The answer seems best explained by those who have realized that there are different "lines of development". Each of those lines follow the same basic stages of growth as the other lines. So in one line, someone may be quite mature, functioning at rational levels. But in another line, they haven't developed that far. So when it comes to faith and God, or the "big-questions", such as the nature of existence and the meaning of life itself, they can be still functioning at early magic and mythic levels. So in dealing with life's daily challenges, "Bob" may be functioning fully using analytical thought, using science and reason, testing and evidence, etc, but when he talks about God, it's the anthropomorphic deity in the sky answering your wishes you ask of him. What it is is they simply haven't developed that line. It's a different channel for thought to integrate. So higher, rational thought has yet to develop in that line. It doesn't happen automatically that once you're rational scientific over here, you're going to be over there. It has to be specifically applied and developed to fit that particular line. In other words, one line does not directly give one the ability to translate another line utilizing those skills. It has to develop within that line itself.
I believe it's a matter of need. People take up a religion because it helps put their fears and concerns to rest. To do this they have to trust that what they are told is true: their beliefs are genuinely valid. Most often this means accepting the entire basis of these beliefs (one can't pick and choose which pronouncements are right and those that aren't) which can include some pretty odd stuff. It's an "In for a dime, in for a dollar" kind of commitment. Coupled with this is the authority for these beliefs, which is almost always a god. A figure invested with so much wisdom it can never be wrong, and which naturally begs to be followed. Sometimes quite literally.

So here's the set up: Religion doesn't work because it's rational but because it helps people get through their lives; a very important benefit that can't be found anywhere else. A benefit so important that anything that even smacks of picking at it can't be right, and may even have to be destroyed. People are so invested in their beliefs that no matter how crazy they may be their preservation is paramount.

So the religious mind necessarily splits itself into two modes of approaching life, one using rationality---after all, it's far more beneficial to understand why A² + B² = C² than to just accept it on faith---and the other actually using faith---after all, it's far more beneficial to have faith that prayer works than trying to find a down-to-earth rationale for it before accepting it.

And this is why I think we sometimes find very smart people believing some very irrational stuff. To dismiss the irrational stuff would be to admit the basis of their security may be flawed. Maintaining one's sense of security far outweighs one's commitment to rationality.


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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe it's a matter of need. People take up a religion because it helps put their fears and concerns to rest.
While there are truths you are bringing up in what you offer as an explanation, I think it doesn't entirely work in the bigger picture. To begin with I do not believe people's adopting of religion can be reduced down to existential dread (which is what I believe you are getting at in talking about fear). There is a lot more to it than that. In quite a number of cases that fear of non-existence, or death, is not the case. To cite just one example, someone having an "awakening" moment, a profound moment of facing the Void (non-existence, non-being) and coming out on the other side of it no longer have that fear. And yet, they become some of the most deeply devout. It's not fear that drive them, but rather a yearning to become everything possible, and then some.

At a high level this can be understood as the difference between what Maslow recognized in others in his research as "abundance needs" versus the typical "deficiency needs". Deficiency needs seeks to fill a need that is lacking. In your example, one might come to religion to put their fears of death at rest through beliefs. In abundance needs however, one is already fully satisfied with their lives, but there exists a need to express, communicate, and share this, to grow this, to expand this, to become fully and overflowing with that deep satisfaction. Such as these don't fit the model that religion is about death-avoidance.

Furthermore, and more importantly, religion actually does NOT "put their fears and concerns to rest". It simply does not, nor can through simple belief. Religion itself can be for many people who are consumed by that existential dread, actually be all about death-avoidance! It's a form of death-denial! "Jesus will bring me back! I will live forever!", etc, is avoiding facing non-existence. It seeks to "save" this life they live. And doing that, will never result in putting their fears to rest. Denial is not being at peace. Therefore, on a deep existential, on deep subconscious and emotional levels, since it cannot actually truly work, despite the lies we tell ourselves "just believing" in the face of annihilation, the best you could say is that these people turn to religion to try to deny death. But it's not effective in actually doing that to the point one is actually released from that fear. So the best that could be said is it provides the illusion and promise of relief, like a carrot on a stick to keep one chasing after it through the system.

But again, religion is much, much more complex than that. And the reasons why people adopt it far more than simply fear. Social identity, group cohesion, support, structure, and a long list of other reasons are also a factor. Religion and the reasons people adopt them is a whole lot more than just death-denial alone.

To do this they have to trust that what they are told is true: their beliefs are genuinely valid. Most often this means accepting the entire basis of these beliefs (one can't pick and choose which pronouncements are right and those that aren't) which can include some pretty odd stuff. It's an "In for a dime, in for a dollar" kind of commitment.
That can be part of that one particular aspect of it for some people. That's true, but that's far from an inclusive enough model to explain the rest of it very well, let alone those who don't fit that basic need, which are many.

Coupled with this is the authority for these beliefs, which is almost always a god. A figure invested with so much wisdom it can never be wrong, and which naturally begs to be followed. Sometimes quite literally.
Now this is something I talk about regularly about authority and the need to believe and trust that authority. But that fits the developmental model I was mentioning in my two previous posts. That only applies to those at that stage of growth, like a child needing to believe in and trust the god-like knowledge of his parents to keep him safe and teach him how to survive in life. That is very much the mythic-literal stage of faith, but it does not reflect the higher developmental stages. In those, like in any normal childhood development, external authorities become gradually replaced by internal integration. You become the authority in yourself. You become self-actualized, and self-realized. If all you ever do is follow others, you have not yet internalize anything, and yet matured. Any child raised by their parents should grow enough where they are now independent and responsible for themselves to make their own decisions and become a parent, an authority to another.

But alas, so much of religion keeps people at that dependency stage, especially Christianity in the West. Hence why I believe so many are breaking free from it, becoming atheist, spiritual-but-not-religious, alternative religion, etc. It's their attempts to break away from self-serving, narcissistic authoritarian parents to find themselves as self-awaking young adults, as well they should and need to! I seriously believe there is truth to this, and I could expand on it for some time.

So here's the set up: Religion doesn't work because it's rational but because it helps people get through their lives; a very important benefit that can't be found anywhere else. A benefit so important that anything that even smacks of picking at it can't be right, and may even have to be destroyed. People are so invested in their beliefs that no matter how crazy they may be their preservation is paramount.
But that's actually not true. The same things can be found in other ways than religion. But the 'cognitive dissonance" aspect of it you are talking about here, is true of anything, not simply religion, where we emotionally invest our hopes and beliefs in seeking for find whatever it is we are looking for from it, a relationship for instance.

What you see in religion where someone is say, "denying evolution" as we've been talking about, I honestly do not believe it's just cognitive dissonance going on, though I accept in certain cases that is in fact what it is. In others, such as a Ken Ham type "believer", I do not believe it actually is cognitive dissonance! I believe it's basically a cognitive incapability! That very different. Do you follow? Cognitive dissonance occurs when you "know better", but don't want to accept the data. But if you tried to explain stuff to someone without the necessary prerequisite foundations in order to understand something, it literally goes right over their heads! There is no dissonance there. It just simply escapes them. It lands outside their field of vision. It sounds like the teacher in Charlie Brown's Christmas talking, "mah mah, mah mah mah mah...."

This is a developmental thing. Even though they are biologically adults, that has nothing to do with the development of higher structures of consciousness, the frameworks we utilize for translating our experiences of reality. The rational framework, versus the mythic framework, is something that has to develop to the point it replaces the earlier stage of mythic symbols, as valid as those are at that stage, with the symbols associated with later stages. But those who aren't there yet, in that line of development, simply don't grasp that way of thinking yet. What you see then is a "disconnect" in translation between the two stages. That's not cognitive dissonance going on within the mythic level. It's actually quite consistent for that level. Ken Ham, as the example, is not contradicting his world view. He is true to it. He is not in denial of "reality" such as it is to him.

You see where this can go from here?

So the religious mind necessarily splits itself into two modes of approaching life, one using rationality---after all, it's far more beneficial to understand why A² + B² = C² than to just accept it on faith---and the other actually using faith---after all, it's far more beneficial to have faith that prayer works than trying to find a down-to-earth rationale for it before accepting it.
But this is actually not true. You do have those at the rational level who have rational understandings of their own faith and beliefs! This model only works if you reduce religion down to pre-rational mythic and magic thought. For instance, a very easy example is myself. I can talk at some length about "God" from a religious perspective which never once violates reason. It can in fact be held in a rational worldspace, without any cognitive-dissonance whatsoever. Of course, it's not going to look like the anthropomorphic sky-parent deity God of the mythic level, but that's my whole point! :)

And this is why I think we sometimes find very smart people believing some very irrational stuff. To dismiss the irrational stuff would be to admit the basis of their security may be flawed. Maintaining one's sense of security far outweighs one's commitment to rationality.
And this is where I say there is some truth to what you say, but it's pretty specific rather than a sweep explanation of the whole. I want to avoid getting really deep into this in all its subtle shades and variations, but at a high level, I surmise that firstly that cognitive-dissonance occurs when someone is for the most part flying at the rational level as the dominant mode of how they perceive and translate their realities. Then when some other deeply-personal, or deeply important part of their lives, such a truly deep religious need, is important enough for them to be able to integrate it with the rest of their lives you end up with an internal conflict. In many, if not most cases, people's "religious lives", are frankly not all that critical or important to them. They're able to simply fly at the mythic level when they go to church on Sunday, and then put it away like their bicycle when they are done riding it for the day. It's not important enough to them to "upgrade" it to something more effective, at the same level of quality with the other important things with the rest of the lives.

But when it is important enough, and they are predominantly operating at the rational level in the rest of their lives, then they become faced with that disconnect in their own minds with their own modes of thinking over in this other important part of their lives! Now they have a conflict. Now they have dissonance. Now they have an inconsistency, a disconnect. And all that can bring with it emotional reactions, such as irrationality, denial, excuses, alibis, etc, because they are facing quite literally a crisis of faith! That's the pain point before growth occurs!

Now they can go a few directions here when this is occurring, far too involved to go into here. But one of those is to grow that area of their lives to be consistent with the rest of how they translate their world. They can no longer afford to "think as a child". They have to mature their religious understanding of what faith is to them in their lives to be not at odds with the rest of their lives. They literally have to "evolve God", in what that is to them, to make it not at odds, where "faith and reason" are the right and left hands of their own body, both functioning at the current age they have grown to. They are now both 30-year old hands, on a 30 year old body, as opposed to a 5 year old hand on a 30 year old body. They become proportional, balanced, and fully functional at the stage.

Alright, I feel an urge to write an entire chapter of a book on this area, but I'll spare you that much reading here! :) Cool stuff, and an interesting topic, to be sure!
 
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RRex

Active Member
Premium Member
Any ideas on why some people lend so much meaning to the Theory of Evolution?

In my case, I believe it has something to do with the innate need of humans to understand, concretely, where we came from, who we are, and where we're going.

I, personally, have an urgent and, I think, logical need, to see evidence before I can make an informed decision about anything.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
While there are truths you are bringing up in what you offer as an explanation, I think it doesn't entirely work in the bigger picture. To begin with I do not believe people's adopting of religion can be reduced down to existential dread (which is what I believe you are getting at in talking about fear).
Which is why I didn't identify any fears and also included concerns. Any existential dread (whatever you have in mind with this) would just be one among the other fears.

Furthermore, and more importantly, religion actually does NOT "put their fears and concerns to rest". It simply does not, nor can through simple belief.
Then you're not familiar with the effect religion has on people.

But again, religion is much, much more complex than that.
Yeah, I forgot to include its socialization value.

And the reasons why people adopt it far more than simply fear.
Yup, as I said it works to allay concerns and functions as means for socialization.

Social identity, group cohesion, support, structure, and a long list of other reasons are also a factor. Religion and the reasons people adopt them is a whole lot more than just death-denial alone.
Obviously you're hung up on only focusing on the fear of death to the exclusion of concerns. :shrug:

As for the rest of what you've posted, I appreciate the thought you've put into it, but I'm simply not in the mood to go over it all and post replies.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Which is why I didn't identify any fears and also included concerns. Any existential dread (whatever you have in mind with this) would just be one among the other fears.
If you are not referring to fear of death and meaninglessness, what fear are you referring to? And then how would that specifically pertain to religion and not anything else people turn to help them with? Do you mean general anxiety? Also, when you speak of concerns, what concerns? Just saying this without any context which you've now moved this into cannot then be used as a basis for the rest of your model to explain why people are apparently willing to be irrational with religion when they aren't elsewhere. What's your actual foundation? As it stands now, it definitely doesn't seem to explain much of anything. What am I missing?

Then you're not familiar with the effect religion has on people.
Are you being serious? I'm more than familiar with it. I'm writing a book on this topic.

Obviously you're hung up on only focusing on the fear of death to the exclusion of concerns. :shrug:
I am for quite obvious reasons. Because you put that point on it.

As for the rest of what you've posted, I appreciate the thought you've put into it, but I'm simply not in the mood to go over it all and post replies.
Apologizes. I thought you were interested in a discussion, not just stating your views and not wanting to discuss them. Thanks anyway. It did help me flesh out some thoughts for my book.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
If you are not referring to fear of death and meaninglessness, what fear are you referring to? And then how would that specifically pertain to religion and not anything else people turn to help them with? Do you mean general anxiety? Also, when you speak of concerns, what concerns? Just saying this without any context which you've now moved this into cannot then be used as a basis for the rest of your model to explain why people are apparently willing to be irrational with religion when they aren't elsewhere. What's your actual foundation? As it stands now, it definitely doesn't seem to explain much of anything. What am I missing?
Do I really have to enumerate the various fears people have before you'll believe that there's more than just the fear of death? And is it really germane to know which concerns people have to establish the fact that they have them? Let me put it this way: ANY fears and ANY concerns qualify.

Are you being serious? I'm more than familiar with it. I'm writing a book on this topic.
You think everyone who's written a book has been right? Please say no. Simply writing or having written a book does not impress. I've had a book published by a major US publisher and would never think that because of it I necessarily know more about a specific point of its subject matter than someone else.

I am for quite obvious reasons. Because you put that point on it.
I assume by "that point" you're referring the fear of death. My question then is, where did I put that point on it? You were the first of us to mention death.

Apologizes. I thought you were interested in a discussion, not just stating your views and not wanting to discuss them.
Discussing them certainly, but not to the point of having to read through lengthy (by RF standards) expositions.

Thanks anyway. It did help me flesh out some thoughts for my book.
Du är välkommen


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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do I really have to enumerate the various fears people have before you'll believe that there's more than just the fear of death? And is it really germane to know which concerns people have to establish the fact that they have them? Let me put it this way: ANY fears and ANY concerns qualify.
Now this makes your argument purely nonsensical. Thanks for your time.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
As amusing as the reductionist argument that all things are natural therefore there is no unnatural is, it's still a reductionist argument. We already have standing definitions of what natural and artificial is in the context of selection. The two are not the same process.

And you ignored the rest of the post about natural selection not supporting genetic homogeneity, or any genetic ideal or morphological ideal. Which means evolution demonstrably would not support a eugenics position.

Further, descriptive theories are not a prescriptive call to action. I.e. trying to blame a suicide by jumping off a building on the person's education in theory of gravity as another poster put it.

So really all you're doing is the same thing the eugenicist is doing, trying to make ToE into something it's not to further your agenda.

Nobody ever jumped off a building after learning about gravity.
There are countless examples of which I mention one personal to me
of people pursuing eugenics as a result of natural selection theory.
The two concepts are thus not even remotely the same.
That analogy is about as inapplicable as any I have ever heard.

The point no evolutionist has managed to reconcile is that the mental map, or the theory itself
is dictating the behavior. Christians construct their world according to their ideology,
and evolutionists construct the world according to their ideology.

The genetic component plays a role, yes, but its only a part of the picture.
You say
descriptive theories are not a prescriptive call to action
How is it that possible (according to you) that descriptive theories CAN and DO become a prescriptive call to action?

Yes, they need not be.
But how is it possible that they DO in a non-dualist purely genetic paradigm?
How can a piece of paper with black markings on it override behavior that is supposed to be dictated by genes???
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Nobody ever jumped off a building after learning about gravity.
There are countless examples of which I mention one personal to me
of people pursuing eugenics as a result of natural selection theory.
The two concepts are thus not even remotely the same.
That analogy is about as inapplicable as any I have ever heard.

The point no evolutionist has managed to reconcile is that the mental map, or the theory itself
is dictating the behavior. Christians construct their world according to their ideology,
and evolutionists construct the world according to their ideology.

The genetic component plays a role, yes, but its only a part of the picture.
You say

How is it that possible (according to you) that descriptive theories CAN and DO become a prescriptive call to action?

Yes, they need not be.
But how is it possible that they DO in a non-dualist purely genetic paradigm?
How can a piece of paper with black markings on it override behavior that is supposed to be dictated by genes???
Thats not how analogies work. People never actually said apples are the same thing as oranges and yet that is the analogy used to describe when two things aren't analogous. So saying 'nobody ever said apples are oranges' when someone uses the analogy to show something non-analogous would be pretty silly. Blaming gravity or the teaching of gravity for a suicide IS analogous to blaming evolution or the teaching of evolution for eugenics, whether or not it's ever been done.

Once again, descriptive theories aren't prescriptive calls to action. They can no more become one than the previous example calling gravity a malicious idea. Evolution isn't an ideology, any more than gravity is.

Furthermore I've already twice demonstrated that saying pursuing eugenics as a result of evolutionary theory is objectively false. Evolution (which is all about natural selection and genetics) doesn't encourage homogeneity. Eugenics does. Therefore one cannot naturally lead to the other.

If you blame ToE for eugenics
 
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Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
Thats not how analogies work. People never actually said apples are the same thing as oranges and yet that is the analogy used to describe when two things aren't analogous. So saying 'nobody ever said apples are oranges' when someone uses the analogy to show something non-analogous would be pretty silly. Blaming gravity or the teaching of gravity for a suicide IS analogous to blaming evolution or the teaching of evolution for eugenics, whether or not it's ever been done.

Once again, descriptive theories aren't prescriptive calls to action. They can no more become one than the previous example calling gravity a malicious idea. Evolution isn't an ideology, any more than gravity is.

Furthermore I've already twice demonstrated that saying pursuing eugenics as a result of evolutionary theory is objectively false. Evolution (which is all about natural selection in genetics) doesn't encourage homogeneity. Eugenics does. Therefore one cannot naturally lead to the other.

Well evolution certainly was used by the Afrikaners to encourage genocide.
I agree that it does not have to be that, but still, it was and is such.
We can quibble about the semantic meaning of 'ideology' if you like.
People that replace Christianity with Evolution, are certainly changing ideologies.
The dictionary defines ideology as a "body of doctrine".

Eugenics may or may not encourage homogeneity. In the real case of apartheid,
the only homogeneity they desired was skin-color, and being a bunch of rugby players,
valued short squat props as well as tall 8th man, and fast wingers.

Ultimately evolutionary principles will give rise to homogeneity as often as not.
The human race is the only surviving hominid, and all other hominids are extinct.

I do not see how you can state that
saying pursuing eugenics as a result of evolutionary theory is objectively false
for two core reasons:

Firstly,
Major Lategan actually did in fact do this.

Secondly,
there is no logical difference between eugenics and evolution
both consider the death of a biological organism to be nothing more than its inability to survive.
(might is right)

But you still refuse to see the obvious point:
eugenics is part of materialist evolution when humans actively apply it in place of other ideologies.
 

ADigitalArtist

Veteran Member
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Well evolution certainly was used by the Afrikaners to encourage genocide.
I agree that it does not have to be that, but still, it was and is such.
If I said that I was using my knowledge of tectonics to enact a policy of union it would only be stating that I have a fundamental misunderstanding how tectonics work, and would be rightly criticized for making an incongruous statement. The same is no less true for anyone stating eugenics->evolution.

We can quibble about the semantic meaning of 'ideology' if you like.
People that replace Christianity with Evolution, are certainly changing ideologies.
The dictionary defines ideology as a "body of doctrine".
Considering the vast majority of Christians believe in evolution, with YEC and evolution denial only really prevalent in the states (And even then at a rate of 60% last Pew study I've looked at) then no, I wouldn't say that people who acknowledge evolution reject Christianity. But I digress, evolution doesn't meet the demands of the term 'doctrine.' There's no dogma or creed behind it, it just describes genetic flow. It certainly doesn't make claims about the superiority in general terms of types of life, as 'fitness' can mean anything depending on the environmental selection. It doesn't attributes as idealic, which is why it will never by simpatico with eugenics.

Eugenics may or may not encourage homogeneity. In the real case of apartheid,
the only homogeneity they desired was skin-color, and being a bunch of rugby players,
valued short squat props as well as tall 8th man, and fast wingers.
That is homogeneity. And idealizing traits for reasons according to an artificial selection process. All counter-ToE studies.

Ultimately evolutionary principles will give rise to homogeneity as often as not.
The human race is the only surviving hominid, and all other hominids are extinct.
And? We aren't the only primate and there are myriads of example of genus level and family level diversity (e.g. birds, reptiles, felines, canines, apes, etc). I would certainly not describe that as 'as often as not.' Besides, current paleoprimatology research shows that we survived the bottleneck all other hominid species went through because we had the highest variability, and thus adaptability, to the swift changes in environment. Our diversity is what made us stronger, which goes against the modus operendi of eugenics belief. To say nothing of that other hominid species survived through us by breeding into our ancestors. We aren't the same as early homo sapiens (hence the sapiens sapiens classification.)

I do not see how you can state that

for two core reasons:

Firstly,
Major Lategan actually did in fact do this.
See first paragraph.

Secondly,
there is no logical difference between eugenics and evolution
both consider the death of a biological organism to be nothing more than its inability to survive.
(might is right)
See the rest of the paragraphs.

But you still refuse to see the obvious point:
eugenics is part of materialist evolution when humans actively apply it in place of other ideologies.
Once again, I've already demonstrated this to be untrue. Hell I am a demonstration of it being untrue. As here I am, a materialist atheist who rejects eugenics and knows why it is not congruous with evolution as a study. Nor do I describe evolution as an ideology (for reasons I've already inumerated), My ideology, if there is one, is consequential utilitarianism, informed by observation and tempered by pro-social empathy.
 
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