Any Catholics "in name only" here?

[Karolina]

I don't mean secular people who were raised Catholic, but rather people who attend Mass and/or otherwise identify with Catholic practices yet do not fully believe the basic Catholic Christian dogma?

If so, I'd like to hear how you make peace with your inner beliefs and the decision to continue to worship in Catholic spaces. Do you share your difference of opinion openly or do you rather keep your mouth shut and your real beliefs to yourself? And if you're a parent, how does your real faith vs your official denomination influence how you teach your children about God?

.......................................................................................................................................................
I do ask that no one merely dismiss this question with the pejorative label of "cafeteria Catholic" and tell me to go to Confession. In fact, there are more reasons than agreement on dogma that people identify with Catholicism. I refer you to the book "What Makes Us Catholic" by Groome, where Catholics are compared to Jews in that there's more to our identity than just faith. Except that within Judaism, there is a built in tolerance of differences of opinion, whereas within Catholicism, we have accusations of heretics instead. (Just sayin )

 

[Cooky]

I don't mean secular people who were raised Catholic, but rather people who attend Mass and/or otherwise identify with Catholic practices yet do not fully believe the basic Catholic Christian dogma?

If so, I'd like to hear how you make peace with your inner beliefs and the decision to continue to worship in Catholic spaces. Do you share your difference of opinion openly or do you rather keep your mouth shut and your real beliefs to yourself? And if you're a parent, how does your real faith vs your official denomination influence how you teach your children about God?

.......................................................................................................................................................
I do ask that no one merely dismiss this question with the pejorative label of "cafeteria Catholic" and tell me to go to Confession. In fact, there are more reasons than agreement on dogma that people identify with Catholicism. I refer you to the book "What Makes Us Catholic" by Groome, where Catholics are compared to Jews in that there's more to our identity than just faith. Except that within Judaism, there is a built in tolerance of differences of opinion, whereas within Catholicism, we have accusations of heretics instead. (Just sayin )

I wouldn't consider myself that, since I believe all that the Church teaches. However, there are phases I go through, where I become detached from the body of the Church for a while -falling out of communion. Then I return later. But I think that's typical for a lot of people.

 

[Cooky]

Here's a really heartfelt song, that to me, symbolizes the struggles of remaining Catholic in a secular/ material world.

...It's worth listening to, if one has the patience and humbleness to sympathize with others spiritual despair.

Mission in the Rain

I like the part towards the end where he says:
"There's some satisfaction in the San Francisco rain
No matter what comes down the Mission always looks the same."

...To me, it suggests that there's comfort in the unchanging, everlasting Church, and the promises of Christ. And that it's all there, waiting for us to return to it. IMO.

 

[exchemist]

I don't mean secular people who were raised Catholic, but rather people who attend Mass and/or otherwise identify with Catholic practices yet do not fully believe the basic Catholic Christian dogma?

If so, I'd like to hear how you make peace with your inner beliefs and the decision to continue to worship in Catholic spaces. Do you share your difference of opinion openly or do you rather keep your mouth shut and your real beliefs to yourself? And if you're a parent, how does your real faith vs your official denomination influence how you teach your children about God?

.......................................................................................................................................................
I do ask that no one merely dismiss this question with the pejorative label of "cafeteria Catholic" and tell me to go to Confession. In fact, there are more reasons than agreement on dogma that people identify with Catholicism. I refer you to the book "What Makes Us Catholic" by Groome, where Catholics are compared to Jews in that there's more to our identity than just faith. Except that within Judaism, there is a built in tolerance of differences of opinion, whereas within Catholicism, we have accusations of heretics instead. (Just sayin )

Yes this probably applies to me. I am not unhappy to keep the issues unresolved. I am sure I am like millions of people throughout history who have been sceptical of a lot of the doctrines but nevertheless find themselves drawn to the teaching of Christ, the atmosphere of the mass and the traditions of the church. Like Judaism, Catholicism is strong on tradition and this I find has considerable value as one ages in a rapidly changing and increasingly confusing world. Having some timeless constants in one's life can be good for the spirit.

As for children, we decided to bring our son up Catholic so that he would at least have a proper understanding of the faith - and thereby his own culture, i.e. the culture of Western Europe - whatever decision he might make for himself about beliefs later. He has duly decided, at the age of 16, that he doesn't buy it and has stopped coming to mass. But he got a GCSE in religious studies out of it and has studied enough philosophy now not to make any facile condemnations of Christianity. So I'm happy that he has a mature attitude to religion. Who knows - he may come back to it at some time. If he wants to it will be dead easy - far easier than if he had never had the grounding. And if not, it will help him culturally and academically - he wants to study history.

 

[metis]

The Catholic Church is not the Gestapo, thus there's room for personal discernment and possible disagreement with and even within the Church.

The Church, as all religions do, teaches what it believes is more correct, but there's no guarantee that it'll bat 1000. As time has gone on, changes have been made and other changes will be made in the future, such as the numerous changes made with Vatican II presided over by Pope John XXIII.

The best Catholic book on this that I have read is "Let Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide", although I don't know if it's still in publication.

 

[nPeace]

Here's a really heartfelt song, that to me, symbolizes the struggles of remaining Catholic in a secular/ material world.

...It's worth listening to, if one has the patience and humbleness to sympathize with others spiritual despair.

Mission in the Rain

I like the part towards the end where he says:
"There's some satisfaction in the San Francisco rain
No matter what comes down the Mission always looks the same."

...To me, it suggests that there's comfort in the unchanging, everlasting Church, and the promises of Christ. And that it's all there, waiting for us to return to it. IMO.

I'm just interested - more than curious - in understanding how people think and feel about particular things, so I hope you don't mind my asking... How do you feel when you attach yourself to the world? Do you feel like being on a seesaw? Do you feel like you are struggling, or does it feel like a normal everyday experience?

 

[Cooky]

I'm just interested - more than curious - in understanding how people think and feel about particular things, so I hope you don't mind my asking... How do you feel when you attach yourself to the world? Do you feel like being on a seesaw? Do you feel like you are struggling, or does it feel like a normal everyday experience?

I feel like it's my own selfishness taking hold. If Jesus plans on returning for me, I should be able to return to him in worship... I know this... But my selfish nature is something I struggle with. I need to be more like Jesus.

 

[pearl]

I don't mean secular people who were raised Catholic, but rather people who attend Mass and/or otherwise identify with Catholic practices yet do not fully believe the basic Catholic Christian dogma?

Catholicism is not easy. I find the problem with Catholic dogma is that the development of is not understood by the laity. And often a doctrine has been phrased in "the changeable conceptions of a given epoch". Dogmatic truth may be expressed incompletely and at a later date receives a fuller expression. Through continuing interpretation of Scripture it may be found that the grasp of Scripture in an ancient formulization of a dogma did not always agree with what the biblical author originally intended.

If so, I'd like to hear how you make peace with your inner beliefs and the decision to continue to worship in Catholic spaces.

All religion is man made in response to and expression of faith. I find that for me the Catholic church is the highest expression of Christian faith. I am a convert, not raised Catholic.

Do you share your difference of opinion openly or do you rather keep your mouth shut and your real beliefs to yourself?

Whether from the laity or clergy through the hierarchy questions lead to opinions and even, ultimately, to Councils. And all may express their opinions, as private opinions, but never when presenting official Church teaching.

I do ask that no one merely dismiss this question with the pejorative label of "cafeteria Catholic" and tell me to go to Confession. In fact, there are more reasons than agreement on dogma that people identify with Catholicism. I refer you to the book "What Makes Us Catholic" by Groome, where Catholics are compared to Jews in that there's more to our identity than just faith. Except that within Judaism, there is a built in tolerance of differences of opinion, whereas within Catholicism, we have accusations of heretics instead. (Just sayin )

Its due a fundamentalism I think found in all religion.

 

[metis]

it was being catholic that determined me to seek more..it was being catholic that made my reality confusing With the works that it gave me..

If one reads the Sermon On the Mount (Matthew ch. 12-14) and the Parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew ch. 25), one can see the "works" that are expected of us by Jesus.

And the most important of all to ME..is the ‘Virgin Mary’...Virgin Mary was the Key of all this..if you knew what I know! In fact SHE represents the downfall of TODAY! She is the reason why I am here to show you of who I am.

Could you please explain this?

 

[LuisDantas]

Did anyone other than the OP read the book that is mentioned there? I did not, but I would welcome some comments on its contents.

 

[metis]

Did anyone other than the OP read the book that is mentioned there? I did not, but I would welcome some comments on its contents.

I did not, but let me just say that the idea of tolerance within Judaism is really not true a great deal of the time. So, if the book says there is, I can speak from experience to say that it simply is wrong.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't want to abuse the fact that technically I might claim being a baptized Catholic, so please indulge me to ask: I take it that Catholicism, in your experience, is a bit different from Judaism / Jewish communities?

 

[Karolina]

So you no longer consider yourself Catholic (and this is the Catholic DIR).

I'm just not convinced that we're so far detached from the Body of Christ that we cannot find common ground with what has been written and spoken by the Saints and the others, who have literally spent their lives in prayer and reflection.

...For me, it would be comparable to trusting my own gut feeling over a seasoned doctor with a PhD, who has spent the greater part of his life studying and developing contributions toward medicine.

..Yes, there is our "gut feelings" and our own limited experiences... But that can only take us so far. We're a social species, and we all depend on one another, as a group -something worth taking into consideration, IMO.

I prefer to always seek a second opinion when facing major medical decisions. Well educated and respected people tend towards arrogance and maintaining the status quo. I left a PhD program shortly before completion when I realized it would be a mere certificate, not at all indicative of my intelligence or worth. But I know many people that simply follow expert advice and then what happens when they're are conflicting expert opinions? I recently heard my former Spiritual adviser contradict the Jesuit priest author of the book we were using for our retreat in daily life. She quoted the catechism. There is no obvious single explanation, like I used to think.

 

[Karolina]

I did not, but let me just say that the idea of tolerance within Judaism is really not true a great deal of the time. So, if the book says there is, I can speak from experience to say that it simply is wrong.

The book is about being Catholic, not Jewish. The point is that there are so many rituals and traditions that become so ingrained in a Catholic who grows up with it that it becomes a part of one's culture and identity, like being an American, and is not something easily given up even when it's no longer tied to an agreement on dogma. As opposed to perhaps other denominations where it's simpler to switch affiliation bc you're still "doing church" in much the same way as before.

 

[Karolina]

I don't want to abuse the fact that technically I might claim being a baptized Catholic, so please indulge me to ask: I take it that Catholicism, in your experience, is a bit different from Judaism / Jewish communities?

I'm not sure if you're talking to me, but obviously I think being Catholic and Jewish is different. What's the same is the pervasiveness of the various religious traditions deeply ingrained in everyday life, making it nearly impossible to just let go of all of that when one believes something different from official Catholic dogma.

 

[pearl]

Did anyone other than the OP read the book that is mentioned there? I did not, but I would welcome some comments on its contents.

I have not read the book itself, but here is a perfect example of the differences within the Church concerning varying opinions and how they are received and by who.

Library :

For anyone seeking to know more about their Catholic faith so as to be able to live it more integrally in the world, Groome's WMUC rather than being useful may instead undermine their faith. The book is punctuated with anti-Catholic rhetoric and promotes dissent from the teaching of the magisterium. His theological methodology is directed to the politicization and deconstruction of the Catholic tradition, i.e. the dissolution of the historical Church, whose existence across time is rooted in its liturgical history going back to Christ himself. All of this is present in Groome's continuing assault upon Catholic sacramental realism, something that is evidenced in his continuing propaganda against the Catholic Church's doctrine on the ministerial priesthood.
Library :


Groome’s knowledge and expertise in religious education, theology and ministry make him a sought-after speaker in religious education circles and beyond. During the past 35 years, he has made more than 700 presentations to religious educators throughout North America, and served as a guest lecturer at several universities, including Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Emory, Chicago, Notre Dame and Georgetown, among others. He has lectured outside the US in Ireland, England, Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Trinidad and Tobago, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Pakistan, Jamaica, Lithuania, Sweden, Peru, Ecuador, Germany, South Africa and the Netherlands.

https://www.bc.edu/publications/chr...stories/2015/topstories/groome-to-lead-church

 

[metis]

The book is about being Catholic, not Jewish. The point is that there are so many rituals and traditions that become so ingrained in a Catholic who grows up with it that it becomes a part of one's culture and identity, like being an American, and is not something easily given up even when it's no longer tied to an agreement on dogma.

I agree, which is a point that I make to my RCIA students, namely that Catholicism is a lifestyle, not just a religious denomination.

Also, Catholic theology doesn't appear out of nowhere, thus one's doing research is important.

 

[LuisDantas]

A question for anyone willing to answer: to which extent, if any, do you consider the Catholic lifestyle defined by any or all of these elements?

• A contrast to some other local group that is either explicitly non-Catholic or widely understood to be separate and distinct from Catholics (Protestants, for instance)
• Family tradition and legacy, perhaps with specific reference roles that might sometimes be difficult for blood relatives to fulfill being exerced by priests or other people with a clear connection to the Church
• Ritual, understood here as the simple willingness to go along with general expectations of participation in meetings, masses, and other situations that invite people to take a visible role and show some measure of commitment to the community of Catholics
• Actual belief in Church doctrine, including some effort at understanding the core teachings and deciding to which degree one considers those valid in either a literal or figurative sense
• Appreciaton of the potential for good works that comes from the collective effort encouraged and managed by the Church and its priests
• Beliefs in some form of Supernatural reality and/or entities

 

[Cooky]

A question for anyone willing to answer: to which extent, if any, do you consider the Catholic lifestyle defined by any or all of these elements?

• A contrast to some other local group that is either explicitly non-Catholic or widely understood to be separate and distinct from Catholics (Protestants, for instance)
• Family tradition and legacy, perhaps with specific reference roles that might sometimes be difficult for blood relatives to fulfill being exerced by priests or other people with a clear connection to the Church
• Ritual, understood here as the simple willingness to go along with general expectations of participation in meetings, masses, and other situations that invite people to take a visible role and show some measure of commitment to the community of Catholics
• Actual belief in Church doctrine, including some effort at understanding the core teachings and deciding to which degree one considers those valid in either a literal or figurative sense
• Appreciaton of the potential for good works that comes from the collective effort encouraged and managed by the Church and its priests
• Beliefs in some form of Supernatural reality and/or entities

I'm going to go with the last 5, as practical aspects of the Catholic lifestyle, while calling the first as being only true by default. IOW, I don't see the Catholic lifestyle as distinct, but perhaps others do, who protest the Church, thus making it so.

 

[Karolina]

I think some Catholics make it a point to be more counter cultural than necessary. Wearing a bunch of large holy medals comes to mind. Or abstaining from meat but only on Fridays (the way I grew up;s we were supposed to replace meat with something else if we wanted to, but few actually do). Crossing oneself before grace before meals while in public. In some places it seems that just having more than three young children makes people ask if the family is Catholic.

For me, family tradition is off the Polish Catholic flavor, so there to are intertwined.

Ritual is a biggie. Going to Mass and knowing what to do and say when apparently is a big deal for those unfamiliar with it. And going to Mass on designated days of "obligation".

Good works seems like a double edged sword for me. The Catholic Church is the only one I've found to be painterly and unapologetically pro-life when it comes to abortion. I was actually shocked to find out there are Christian pastors and churches that fail to see that it's wrong to stop a beating heart, but I digress. There are works I would designate as anti-good in the anti-LGBTQ rhetoric that comes from the church. Even issues that are clearly Catholic, like welcoming the stranger (refugee, immigrant) are not well received among the more well to do, majority White parishes. And in spite of clear church teaching about care for Creation and the current Pope's teachings, most Catholics I know fight any such effort as "left wing political". So... No, I don't think the potential for good works is sufficient for the Catholic lifestyle, since individual issues are not always seen as good works.

And I personally think a belief in God is central, though I've heard of atheists who continue to "get something" out of periodic visits to church or Mass attendance