Anti-Racism, Privilege and Non-Racism

[Shad]

"Racist" is the pefect all purpose perjorative.
Nobody is safe nobody can defend against it,
nobody knows what it means.

Since I brought it up, I will volunteer to
go first.

Grand Inquisitor-
"Audie, are you a racist?"

Audie-
"Yes".

You should race less

 

[dianaiad]

I don't know where this whole line of thinking comes from but it isn't a liberal line of thinking.

The fact that you even cast this whole discussion as a "condescension" is telling.

If you accidentally step on someone's toes, is it a condescension to admit it? When you realize your naivete do you not feel humility?

I beg to differ. It IS a liberal line of thinking. It is also, perhaps, naivete in its own way, because those who do this do not THINK they are being racist.


They just are.

and you demanding that I feel 'humility' for being 'white' when others are darker skinned is racist in and of itself. Why should I be humble over that?

One is humble about things that one could be proud of, if they weren't being 'moral.' One is not humble about one's freckles, is one? They are either there or they aren't. One could be humble about being spectacularly beautiful, I suppose...but I'm definitely not that.

I'm neither humble nor proud of my skin color; it just is what it is. I'm not responsible for it. My husband was considerably darker of skin than me...so much so that when we were first married, and we went out to dinner, the wait staff tended to be very rude. Not to HIM, mind you, but to ME for being with him. This attitude did not confine itself to 'white' waiters, either. In fact, it was mostly "people of color" who were insulting.

But I married him 47 years ago. Things have, thank heaven, changed a bit since then.

But I utterly refuse to be told that I'm a 'naive racist' simply and only because....I'm 'white.' That IS a racist thing to assume or say.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yeah, that idea was out within the first minute. Made me so mad I stopped watching. She claimed that she had a platform because she was 'white' and nobody else had such a platform?

So your mad she recognizes her own privilege as a white woman?

She has a platform...not because she is 'white,' but because she is apologizing for BEING 'white.'

That wasn't what she said, that is straw man you're doing.

She's got a platform because her opinions tickle the ears of her listeners

No. She has a platform because some white racist coward decided to use his car as a tool for evil and run her daughter over.

and frankly? Those listeners are as racist as any good ol' southerner looking to lynch the 'N****" Only the target changed.

This made no absolute sense. So if someone speaks out against racism they are somehow racist? This website never cease to amaze at the intelligence and logic some of you people display.

But the thing is, SHE is being racist herself; very racist. SHE is claiming special privilege because of her skin color

Acknowledging ethnic privilege does not mean you're racist, what type of idiocy is this? I call it idiocy because it lacks intellectual integrity. If I acknowledge that I have certain privileges based on my ethnic demographic that no other demographic has it is not racism, it is being conscientious of the reality that there are some privileges that exist for me and for those that look like me that no other group has.

She's using her daughter's death to manipulate the listeners, so that they will say 'look how special this woman is, giving up her "white privilege" so she can come down and be just like the rest of us."

Another straw man.....This is illogical at its finest.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Notice how its white mostly right wing people that claim whites aren't racist.

No. Notice how its mostly idiots who lack any sense of damn listening comprehension to a 5 minute video that can take this entirely left field (or in the righties case right field).

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I tried dating a Korean girl once and her Father forbid it because he wouldn't have a white man date his daughter.

You poor soul.

 

[dianaiad]

So your mad she recognizes her own privilege as a white woman?

She doesn't have any privilege as a 'white woman.' She claims to have it, but she is assuming it, then apologizing for it, and expecting her listeners to admire her for acknowledging...and then using...that special privilege.

But her 'platform' is hers because she is the mother of a victim, and she would have that same platform no matter what her skin color is, if she spoke up. There are many other women of different skin colors who have spoken out, and been listened to. SHE, however, had to draw attention to her 'whiteness,' and her special morality in using that 'special white privilege' to do good things for the poor, underprivileged minorities.

I mean, really; the first thing she said was, for all intents and purposes, 'look at me! I'm WHITE, and I'm using my white specialness for YOU!"

Made me gag, to be honest.

That wasn't what she said, that is straw man you're doing.

No. She has a platform because some white racist coward decided to use his car as a tool for evil and run her daughter over.[/quote]

You are quite correct. However, SHE claimed that she had a platform only because she, herself, was white: that other women in her place, if they were not 'white' wouldn't have such a platform. She's wrong.

And after that, I stopped listening to the video.

This made no absolute sense. So if someone speaks out against racism they are somehow racist?

Sometimes. In this case, yes. It's the 'some of my best friends are' sort of thing. It might even be unintentional:so deeply ingrained in the psyche that even she herself can't see it.

Acknowledging ethnic privilege does not mean you're racist,

It does if that privilege doesn't actually exist, or if that acknowledgment is actually a boast; 'look what I have, and look what I'm doing with it, aren't I wonderful?"

In this case, her platform (as you have pointed out) is because a racist drove a car into a crowd and killed her daughter. She would have had the same platform if she and her daughter had been purple with polka dots, or very dark brown, or with epicanthic folds on her eyes, or whatever. SHE is the one who is claiming that her 'race' is what gave her the platform to speak from.

And that is racist.

what type of idiocy is this? I call it idiocy because it lacks intellectual integrity. If I acknowledge that I have certain privileges based on my ethnic demographic that no other demographic has it is not racism, it is being conscientious of the reality that there are some privileges that exist for me and for those that look like me that no other group has.

Which is fine, and could be argued if we were talking about where to sit on a bus in 1950's Atlanta. But we aren't. We are talking about a woman who lost her daughter, and is no more privileged as a 'white' speaker than an equally erudite 'black' woman. It is that claim that makes her racist.

 

[Lyndon]

Its idiotic to deny white privilege, mostly racist people do it, white people.

 

[Enoch07]

You poor soul.

Tell me about it. Xun was hot and a firecracker in the sack. If he knew all the naughty things she did for this white man he would have been a lot more upset than just selling his gas station and moving back to Korea.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

She doesn't have any privilege as a 'white woman.

Where do you deduce that she doesn't? Privileges exist whether you acknowledge them or not.

he claims to have it, but she is assuming it, then apologizing for it, and expecting her listeners to admire her for acknowledging...and then using...that special privilege.

I listened to the video, I didn't hear an apology from her, merely her recognizing she has privilege. I also didn't see any expectation rather the mother was explaining that being anti-racist isn't enough, she further adds according to the New York Daily News: People must be affirmatively anti-racist. Also, if you must know this was a hearing by House Oversight Committee on Civil Rights and Civil Liberties which discussed escalating violence.

Source:Heather Heyer’s mom tells AOC why not being racist is not enough

But her 'platform' is hers because she is the mother of a victim, and she would have that same platform no matter what her skin color is, if she spoke up.

That remains to be seen.

There are many other women of different skin colors who have spoken out, and been listened to.

Really? When? Where? You have proof, if so, show me? Show me a black parent or Muslim parent who lost someone to hate violence who had not just a local platform but global.

SHE, however, had to draw attention to her 'whiteness

Which is good. She understands her white privilege.

I mean, really; the first thing she said was, for all intents and purposes, 'look at me! I'm WHITE

Actually if you go back to the video the first thing she said was:

"I would like it as part of the record stated that Heather was killed primarily because Mr. Fields was aiming to kill someone who he thought was black. He drove into a crowd of people in support of black lives matter."

You are quite correct. However, SHE claimed that she had a platform only because she, herself, was white: that other women in her place, if they were not 'white' wouldn't have such a platform. She's wrong.

I think you missed the point.

"Her mother, Susan Bro, testified at a hearing examining the rise in white supremacist violence and said a double standard applied to white terrorism and victims compared to people of color. “I have been given a huge platform across the country and in some forms even around the world because I’m white,” Bro said. “Many black parents lose their children, many Muslim parents lose their children, Jewish parents lose their children and nobody pays attention.”

Source:Heather Heyer’s mom tells AOC why not being racist is not enough

Very often mothers and fathers of color speak out against racial violence but very rarely does the United States put the mirror to itself, recognizing its own internal biases. We as a society are ready to categorize Arabs who commit crimes as terrorism (even if their motive was not terrorism) yet when white murders who kill for socio-political reasons we label them not as domestic terrorists but rather people with mental issues.

Sometimes. In this case, yes. It's the 'some of my best friends are' sort of thing. It might even be unintentional:so deeply ingrained in the psyche that even she herself can't see it.

First off, this was not even the case. Second, highlighting and addressing racism is not even close to the very definition of racism. If I'm highlighting a problem that does not by default make me part of the problem, in fact it makes me part of the solution because I'm acknowledging a problem exists.

It does if that privilege doesn't actually exist

Sociological research has shown that white privilege exists. YOU just choose to not acknowledge it.

Source:https://www.collegeart.org/pdf/diversity/white-privilege-and-male-privilege.pdf
Source:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1111/0004-5608.00182
Source:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13613320500110519
Source:SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

I suspect you wont read all the research articles, but I just thought I list them to show you proof that there is sociological research there that acknowledges that white privilege exists.

SHE is the one who is claiming that her 'race' is what gave her the platform to speak from.

And that is racist.

“I have been given a huge platform across the country and in some forms even around the world because I’m white,” Bro said. “Many black parents lose their children, many Muslim parents lose their children, Jewish parents lose their children and nobody pays attention.”

Again, to acknowledge one's privilege especially when it comes to ethnic privilege is not a racist thing, it is acknowledging there are certain privileges that one has. Ultimately there are many women on this planet that have gone through tragedy and unfortunately among them are women of color whose voice has not been heard. For women of color it takes something drastic for the world to hear their voice case in point, look at the mother of Emmett Till who decided to have the casket open showing the deformity of her son. The mother "wanted the world to see the barbaric act committed against her son by white men in Mississippi." Heyer's mother did the same thing, she wanted the world to know the hatred and violence purported by white supremacy.

It is that claim that makes her racist.

You really need to go back and look at the definition of what racism is.

 

[sealchan]

'deeply embedded?"

Hardly.

I'm 'deeply embedded" in a 'culture' that honestly doesn't see that skin color means anything. I acknowledge that to many, it DOES mean something. This woman is one of those who thinks it does, and I do, actually, believe that she is racist.

If she weren't, she would not be talking about the RACE of the shooter or the victims, but the mindset and motivations. She wouldn't be bragging about how she is using her 'special' status of being 'white' to promote her agenda.

That others are racist is obvious. The insidious thing is that those who are most screaming ABOUT racism are continuing that racism themselves, by so doing. Don't talk about 'people of color." Talk about 'gangs,' or 'cultures.." because it's the group one identifies with that makes the 'person' who s/he is when others look.

(shrug)

MY culture is...my religion, the town I live in, the people I'm comfortable 'hanging' with. Those would be...quilters, knitters, people who do community theater, paint and go to museums, deal with specific issues that most other people don't have to deal with....and those cultures all have different memberships. None of these 'cultures' have skin color as a qualification to join.

If I go back far enough in my genealogy, I'm descended from Eric the Red...and later, from a Mayflower couple and John Adams. Oh, and I'm descended from a great many famous people's relatives; except for Adams and Eric, I don't ever seem to hit the mark. I'm descended, for instance, from William the Conqueror's ******* cousin, and a few other 'wrong side of the blanket' folks. Lots of fooling around in my family tree.

That makes me pretty darned 'white,' I suppose, but so what? Doesn't make me smarter, richer, more moral, or 'special.' I do not need to handicap myself in order to allow a 'person of color' to be equal to me. Doing so is an incredible insult, I firmly believe. Brains, ability and morality have nothing to do with melanin content. They do not need me to 'hold back' in order for them to keep up, and I wouldn't put up with any situation in which I WERE given different treatment because of my skin color.

Unless someone is offering free sunscreen samples.

And this woman? She claims that she IS better/more 'special than people of color, simply by referring to her 'white privilege platform' , and she's actually bragging about it. Had she simply stated her case, rather than letting everybody know that she was deliberately stepping in less exalted company....well, I don't actually know whether I would have listened. I couldn't get past the bragging apology.

I agree that you shouldn't 'hold back' because of your racial background. You, like everyone else born of this earth deserve all the love, success and happiness you can get without having to indiscriminately give it away to anyone else for no good reason...like race. And I am sure you would feel bad if you saw someone acting with racial bias to take away that same opportunity from someone else.

So if we all keep our eyes open and listen with sincerity I am sure no one will be cheated of anything.

 

[sealchan]

If golden rule is it, then at least, in intent,
I am no way a racist.

I am sure that is all anyone can ask. My own lack of exposure to non-whites for a great part of my life leaves me prone to lean on my biases no doubt.

 

[sealchan]

I can.

And I can prove it. I will get just as insulting to a 'person of color' as I will a 'white' person.
As well, while I am certainly melanin challenged, my husband certainly wasn't, and neither are my kids, and trust me on this; I don't attribute any possible flaws in their character to their skin color.

I won't give a 'person of color' any breaks I wouldn't give a 'white' person, in work or anywhere else...or vice versa. To me, skin color only matters when purchasing cosmetics and hair care products.

In fact, I'm kinda confused as to what 'white' actually MEANS, to 'people of color,' and I'm not sure what that means, either, if one looks at the matter from 'outside.' I'll have to ask the next red-headed blue eyed Jew I meet how s/he feels about being a 'person of color."

The problem is that the 'human race' is probably the most homogeneous species on the planet, thanks to that long ago 'bottle neck' that winnowed humans down to a small group from which we have all descended. Every other species, from chimpanzees to whales, have more variation in DNA among themselves than we humans have from one another.

The whole thing is asinine.

It is asinine, but like so many things in human social experience, that doesnt stop it from being a thing.

I dont think you or anyone here needs to prove anything, but let's not ignore what does happen.

No one should be asked to give up who they are because by being put in a class they are identified as less worthy, so let's listen carefully to those who claim that this is true of them and help, if we can, lessen the likelihood that continues.

 

[sealchan]

If golden rule is it, then at least, in intent,
I am no way a racist.

I think that many people are now beginning to realize that they all come with bias and that it really takes no effort on their part to perpetuate it. It is really inescapable.

I think that one thing we all need to know is that we are all biased. What is avoidable are rationalizations that lead one to dismiss this. Bias is a basic human psychological reality that we will never be rid of. What we want to be rid of is conscious promotion of discrimination based on irrelevant factors which persistently limit the opportunity of others as well as to reduce the ability of people to unconsciously avoid checking their bias. We really want to do this for ourselves because we want to he free from thinking with bias against ourselves as well as others.

The problem with racism isnt racial identification, it's a failure see a person as sincere when you dont understand or agree with them IMO.

There is a lot of lack of safety in this topic and it will take time and repeated effort to find ways of authentically hearing "others" and eventually making room for sincerely empathizing with others.

 

[Stevicus]

White culture consists of those individuals who would identify as of the white race and who live in a predominantly white population both currently and historically through the generations of their ancestors.

There may be such a thing as "white culture," but the term seems an oversimplification when looking at the wide variety of European cultures which have migrated to our shores. It's an amalgamation of various cultures.

I'm not sure where the term "white culture" originated. Perhaps it's a consequence of America's history of racism and segregation where dual cultures, "white culture" and "black culture," developed side by side even if they were artificially segregated. Both cultures would be part of the overall "American culture," which also seems to mystify some folks.

 

[Audie]

Its idiotic to deny white privilege, mostly racist people do it, white people.

You are funny.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

@sealchan The problem with discussing this topic is there is lack of understanding and empathy regarding the issue of race, and race relations. There are far too many right-wing people here on this website with racial biases of their own, and many fail to see the other side or don't want to see the other side. In a society where white supremacy has caused the lives of innocent people, people of all walks of life, a failure to act upon our own alleged non-racist views simply allows racism of this kind to fester and grow. I again, attribute the famous line most notably attributed to Edmund Burke:

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

This is why the likes of Heather Heyer in my opinion will always be a martyr for the cause of civil rights and a voice for "Black Lives Matter." Because she took to action her views of her not being a racist into action by staying shoulder to shoulder with other human beings of different walks of life to speak out against the injustices that black Americans face. The beautiful as well as the most tragic thing about suffering is that it becomes relatable, and when we become empathic, that pain and anguish becomes our own. I believe this is the crux of the issue in the video when Ms. Susan Bro stated in the video concerning taking action to our self-professed beliefs of non-racism. You see, I know what she meant. I've seen from afar many whites who have seen blatant discrimination especially in the healthcare field to which I work in and they have said nothing. The whole "I don't want to get involved" motif is only to protect the cowardly because fighting against injustice is hard work and troublesome.

This is why I call into question a person's religious faith especially those who profess the belief in doing good works and helping mankind. You see, these people believe good works are done at their convenience, but when it is inconvenient to them virtue is not an appropriate endeavor. In another thread it was asked of me why I would interject if someone was making inappropriate jokes. The thing is, what's right is right, and what's wrong is wrong. I'm trying to constantly teach myself to put my money where my mouth is. Not being racist is not a phrase you say on religiousforums.com but its something you call into action ever day the moment you see something wrong and unjust against your fellow man. I think this is ultimately what Ms. Susan Bro was aiming for.

You said:

"There is a lot of lack of safety in this topic and it will take time and repeated effort to find ways of authentically hearing "others" and eventually making room for sincerely empathizing with others."

Unfortunately the lack of safety resides in the fact that there is a lack of empathy.

 

[sealchan]

I beg to differ. It IS a liberal line of thinking. It is also, perhaps, naivete in its own way, because those who do this do not THINK they are being racist.


They just are.

and you demanding that I feel 'humility' for being 'white' when others are darker skinned is racist in and of itself. Why should I be humble over that?

One is humble about things that one could be proud of, if they weren't being 'moral.' One is not humble about one's freckles, is one? They are either there or they aren't. One could be humble about being spectacularly beautiful, I suppose...but I'm definitely not that.

I'm neither humble nor proud of my skin color; it just is what it is. I'm not responsible for it. My husband was considerably darker of skin than me...so much so that when we were first married, and we went out to dinner, the wait staff tended to be very rude. Not to HIM, mind you, but to ME for being with him. This attitude did not confine itself to 'white' waiters, either. In fact, it was mostly "people of color" who were insulting.

But I married him 47 years ago. Things have, thank heaven, changed a bit since then.

But I utterly refuse to be told that I'm a 'naive racist' simply and only because....I'm 'white.' That IS a racist thing to assume or say.

What are your thoughts on how the unconscious levels of the mind influence human behaviour and group behaviour?

 

[Audie]

What are your thoughts on how the unconscious levels of the mind influence human behaviour and group behaviour?

Supposing you were wanting to hire for
a position that required that the person
be utterly reliable about showing up on time.

Your two applicants are someone from a local
Indian reservation, and a Japanese.

 

[sealchan]

@sealchan The problem with discussing this topic is there is lack of understanding and empathy regarding the issue of race, and race relations. There are far too many right-wing people here on this website with racial biases of their own, and many fail to see the other side or don't want to see the other side. In a society where white supremacy has caused the lives of innocent people, people of all walks of life, a failure to act upon our own alleged non-racist views simply allows racism of this kind to fester and grow. I again, attribute the famous line most notably attributed to Edmund Burke:

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”

This is why the likes of Heather Heyer in my opinion will always be a martyr for the cause of civil rights and a voice for "Black Lives Matter." Because she took to action her views of her not being a racist into action by staying shoulder to shoulder with other human beings of different walks of life to speak out against the injustices that black Americans face. The beautiful as well as the most tragic thing about suffering is that it becomes relatable, and when we become empathic, that pain and anguish becomes our own. I believe this is the crux of the issue in the video when Ms. Susan Bro stated in the video concerning taking action to our self-professed beliefs of non-racism. You see, I know what she meant. I've seen from afar many whites who have seen blatant discrimination especially in the healthcare field to which I work in and they have said nothing. The whole "I don't want to get involved" motif is only to protect the cowardly because fighting against injustice is hard work and troublesome.

This is why I call into question a person's religious faith especially those who profess the belief in doing good works and helping mankind. You see, these people believe good works are done at their convenience, but when it is inconvenient to them virtue is not an appropriate endeavor. In another thread it was asked of me why I would interject if someone was making inappropriate jokes. The thing is, what's right is right, and what's wrong is wrong. I'm trying to constantly teach myself to put my money where my mouth is. Not being racist is not a phrase you say on religiousforums.com but its something you call into action ever day the moment you see something wrong and unjust against your fellow man. I think this is ultimately what Ms. Susan Bro was aiming for.

You said:

"There is a lot of lack of safety in this topic and it will take time and repeated effort to find ways of authentically hearing "others" and eventually making room for sincerely empathizing with others."

Unfortunately the lack of safety resides in the fact that there is a lack of empathy.

My hope is that people are capable of finding that empathy that they didn't know they were missing by being shown it in their own case of vulnerability. It is perhaps a recognition of ones own vulnerability that is the primary difficulty and that sense of being judged unfairly for being white may be a good place to start.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

It is perhaps a recognition of ones own vulnerability that is the primary difficulty and that sense of being judged unfairly for being white may be a good place to start.

But who is judging someone unfairly for being white?