Anti-Christmas Thread

[oldbadger]

A Solstice or Equinox party has nothing to do with Gods or religions, or New Age stuff.

Exactly! It's all about an annual celebration that can be looked-forward to and enjoyed.
Christmas is so many things to so many different people and cultures.

I have to admit that when a person bangs on about howe ridiculous and absurd Christmas is, and that they will have nothing to do with it for various reasons, then I just have to put that down to some kind of extremism. Obviously some religions as well as extreme-atheists are absolutely against recognising it........... it's all just a kind of extremism.

 

[Laika]

What God? What worship? Did you notice that - YOU AREN'T?

A Solstice or Equinox party has nothing to do with Gods or religions, or New Age stuff.

The religions were later formed around the turning of the earth, and the stars and heavens. Sun Gods, etc.

I do not worship any God in my Winter Solstice celebrations, and obviously, as an Atheist neither should you.

And YOU did say this, below - So - how is it different from what I said?

"I think I mentioned it in the OP but I like the idea of celebrating New Years Day instead. I can really "relate" to that (even if it is just one orbit round the sun). It's a milestone you can measure and an opportunity to think about the year behind you and the one that lies ahead. As a secular alternative, that makes sense to me..."

So?

*

I mis-read the second line of your reply as celebrating Christmas for a whole week- so my apologies. You make a fair point.

 

[Laika]

Ha ha! I am prepared to bet you have never, in a long time, worshipped at any God's alter!

The ancients where I live waited to see the rising sun halt from its Northward progress and just start to return to the south, so they knew that the spring was only about 80 days away. And they killed all their excess stock which they could not feed (or shelter) through the rest of the cold months. Hence the enormous feasts. They did believe in Gods and super beings, but their Mid Winter Feast was just that.

But if you don't like Christmas, you could just get on with your life as best you can. But if you tell me that it's a great trial for you, Christmas, I'll just laugh.


Then you just haven't ever starved and thirsted in a desert. If you managed to survive a week in a deert you'd be positively raving, I reckon.

The "Trial" of Christmas is wondering how to go from celebrating it to not celebrating it at all. I haven't believed in Christmas for a long time but still gone along with it out of a sense it's a time for social bonding. (It's pretty clear I'm not alone in that). Questioning that feels like a big deal given how normalised that is- but in practice, yeah, I'm probably letting the social anxiety doing the talking.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I have to admit that when a person bangs on about howe ridiculous and absurd Christmas is, and that they will have nothing to do with it for various reasons, then I just have to put that down to some kind of extremism.

Bah-humbuggery isn't extremism, it is very British, have a good moan and then enjoy it anyway.

 

[Ingledsva]

I mis-read the second line of your reply as celebrating Christmas for a whole week- so my apologies. You make a fair point.

*

 

[Laika]

Exactly! It's all about an annual celebration that can be looked-forward to and enjoyed.
Christmas is so many things to so many different people and cultures.

I have to admit that when a person bangs on about howe ridiculous and absurd Christmas is, and that they will have nothing to do with it for various reasons, then I just have to put that down to some kind of extremism. Obviously some religions as well as extreme-atheists are absolutely against recognising it........... it's all just a kind of extremism.

I'm having to "feel" my way round this. My head is trying to catch up.

In a previous post you said it must have been a long time since I've worshipped at an alter. It was actually back at primary school, and we had to go and sing in the local church during Christmas and Harvest time. I would only have been 10 or 11 at the oldest but I lost any religious faith a few years before that. I only entertained the idea at all because we sang about God and Jesus all the time and I think we may have been taught some bible stories.

The one area where I know this was detrimental was sexuality as I was brought up to believe sex was sinful and abstinence was good. This was something I picked up age 4-6 at school when I was too young to know the damage it would later do. Echoes of that repeated much later on during my adolescence and eventually in my twenties when I came out as bisexual. The price of being instructed to engage in self loathing at a natural sexual instinct is years of mental illness. True, it has more than one cause- but that was by far the biggest. It took a very long time for me to challenge many of those ideas, expose them at a rational level with all the emotional bagged it involved and to learn to love and respect myself.

The extremism of my atheism is in trying to identify and purge myself of those harmful ideas by re-examining them in a materialist/wholly naturalistic light. Given this involves digging around my unconscious to find connections, it's both extremist and very much like religion in the way emotions take such a central role and how it relies on intutition to let it unfold and trust yourself. Its extreme because it's messy.

 

[Jumi]

Recently Christmas has been great for me, good food and friends. Nothing religious about it.

 

[oldbadger]

From now on "Christmas" shall be known as "Guinnessmas", and draft Guinness shall be installed in every home.

That's it!!
Think of that...... parties where everybody drinks Guiness Draught and then the whole gathering just descends into a full-on pagan ......... whatever.....

 

[oldbadger]

I'm having to "feel" my way round this. My head is trying to catch up.

Fair enough......... I promise you that I have never ever caught up, for me it's rather like swimming out in a vast estuary and wondering how to work out which way the tide is flowing and how fast.

In a previous post you said it must have been a long time since I've worshipped at an alter. It was actually back at primary school, and we had to go and sing in the local church during Christmas and Harvest time. I would only have been 10 or 11 at the oldest but I lost any religious faith a few years before that. I only entertained the idea at all because we sang about God and Jesus all the time and I think we may have been taught some bible stories.
The one area where I know this was detrimental was sexuality as I was brought up to believe sex was sinful and abstinence was good. This was something I picked up age 4-6 at school when I was too young to know the damage it would later do. Echoes of that repeated much later on during my adolescence and eventually in my twenties when I came out as bisexual. The price of being instructed to engage in self loathing at a natural sexual instinct is years of mental illness. True, it has more than one cause- but that was by far the biggest. It took a very long time for me to challenge many of those ideas, expose them at a rational level with all the emotional bagged it involved and to learn to love and respect myself.

The extremism of my atheism is in trying to identify and purge myself of those harmful ideas by re-examining them in a materialist/wholly naturalistic light. Given this involves digging around my unconscious to find connections, it's both extremist and very much like religion in the way emotions take such a central role and how it relies on intutition to let it unfold and trust yourself. Its extreme because it's messy.

Again..... Fair enough. Only now am I beginning to realise what a psychological mess I was when an infant, and Primary school culture in the 50's did so much damage to so many.
Our hair partings, which way we buttoned our coats, what games we could play, what small jobs we were given, and so many other details were governed by our sex, and anyone who differed was in deep difficulties.

I also remember morning prayers and the humbig which was pumped into us, but fortunately I laugh out loud when I think about this, because the boy who stood next to me at assembly didn't understand the Lord's Prayer (who did?) and he had his own mistaken version which spoke out loudly. Every line was a delight, and I even I could figure that it was wrong.

Arfarva, whose art's in 'eav'n
Hello! Be Vy's name..... etc.....

....and I laugh........

Remember this, there are legions of us who were so badly damaged during our raising, in different ways.

 

[Laika]

Fair enough......... I promise you that I have never ever caught up, for me it's rather like swimming out in a vast estuary and wondering how to work out which way the tide is flowing and how fast.



Again..... Fair enough. Only now am I beginning to realise what a psychological mess I was when an infant, and Primary school culture in the 50's did so much damage to so many.
Our hair partings, which way we buttoned our coats, what games we could play, what small jobs we were given, and so many other details were governed by our sex, and anyone who differed was in deep difficulties.

I also remember morning prayers and the humbig which was pumped into us, but fortunately I laugh out loud when I think about this, because the boy who stood next to me at assembly didn't understand the Lord's Prayer (who did?) and he had his own mistaken version which spoke out loudly. Every line was a delight, and I even I could figure that it was wrong.

Arfarva, whose art's in 'eav'n
Hello! Be Vy's name..... etc.....

....and I laugh........

Remember this, there are legions of us who were so badly damaged during our raising, in different ways.

Thanks.

 

[oldbadger]

Bah-humbuggery isn't extremism, it is very British, have a good moan and then enjoy it anyway.

The Brits are different! Brits are ALLOWED to moan. We can moan about the weather, the cold winter, the hot summer, the friggin' gridlocked roads, ......... anything! Including bloomin' Christmas.

For this reason, and being a Brit, I am trying to get through a whole Christmas without receiving a Christmas card. I can't tell you how difficult it is, being a total t--t to everybody in the weeks leading up to Christmas. And then some total idiot sends me a friggin' card, which renders all that fine effort into a complete waste of -------- time.

Obviously I am going to get a card from Mrs Badger, and I don't go out of my way to upset her before Christmas because ....... well ....... you know, those glasses of Guiness-Draught can make Christmas!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

For this reason, and being a Brit, I am trying to get through a whole Christmas without receiving a Christmas card. I can't tell you how difficult it is, being a total t--t to everybody in the weeks leading up to Christmas. And then some total idiot sends me a friggin' card, which renders all that fine effort into a complete waste of -------- time.

Oh, I know, I've managed to bah-humbug most people out of present-giving now, but the cards are still a challenge. Especially that acquaintance who keeps sending a card every year, despite the total lack of response!

 

[Rick O'Shez]

That's it!!
Think of that...... parties where everybody drinks Guiness Draught and then the whole gathering just descends into a full-on pagan ......... whatever.....

Full-on pagan is what Christmas is all about!

But be careful out in Iowa in the lead up to Christmas! ( probably similar to Norfolk )

 

[Quintessence]

It's good advice but hard to follow.

It is; that's definitely something I recognize. It's something I have to deal with as a religious minority, and honestly.... I mostly deal with it by simply not making a big deal about it in the first place.

I've got my own beefs with Christmas, but they're different from what you're talking about, for sure.

 

[Laika]

It is; that's definitely something I recognize. It's something I have to deal with as a religious minority, and honestly.... I mostly deal with it by simply not making a big deal about it in the first place.

I've got my own beefs with Christmas, but they're different from what you're talking about, for sure.

Yeah, thanks. Not having met a Pagan in person, I am curious so you are welcome to share.

 

[Quintessence]

Yeah, thanks. Not having met a Pagan in person, I am curious so you are welcome to share.

I held of on those sorts of comments because I wasn't sure this thread was the place for it, so I'll take you up on the invitation.

For me there's a couple things. Paganism on the whole, and in particular Druidry as groups like OBOD understand it, are sensitive to environmental issues and often consider themselves environmentalists of some flavor or another. This means the increased commercialization and consumerism of holidays - and Christmas is by far the biggest offender here - is something that makes me grouchy. I did touch on this briefly before when I mentioned Giftmas. It means what I practice for that aspect of Christmas aims to fly in the face of the wasteful consumerism it enshrines. Technically, I do this for everything I purchase for any reason... and I don't exempt gifts from this. But seeing all the mass produced, gimmicky crap around this time of year? It's a painful reminder that the geologic legacy of the human species is going to be massive trash piles everywhere. Yay.

The other bit is that how mainstream culture celebrates Christmas is almost entirely at odds with how I view that time of year. This is something that alienates me from other Pagans as well, because your typical Pagan will celebrate Winter Solstice in a very light-fixated fashion. That is to say, it's seen as being about the rebirth of light. For me, it is a celebration of darkness, silence, and stillness. It's a time to do things like fast from all forms of technology and fire, to embark on a hermitage, engage in rituals of sensory deprivation, deep meditation, that sort of thing. So when people hang these blasted colorful lights everywhere, and do their singing and their extroverted activities, it is a horrible clash. It's bad enough that I can't actually immerse myself in total darkness for my Winter Solstice ritual like I want to without all the extra light pollution ruining the longest night of the year. It would make my year if there was some massive power outage on Winter Solstice - voluntary or storm-driven.

 

[Laika]

I held of on those sorts of comments because I wasn't sure this thread was the place for it, so I'll take you up on the invitation.

For me there's a couple things. Paganism on the whole, and in particular Druidry as groups like OBOD understand it, are sensitive to environmental issues and often consider themselves environmentalists of some flavor or another. This means the increased commercialization and consumerism of holidays - and Christmas is by far the biggest offender here - is something that makes me grouchy. I did touch on this briefly before when I mentioned Giftmas. It means what I practice for that aspect of Christmas aims to fly in the face of the wasteful consumerism it enshrines. Technically, I do this for everything I purchase for any reason... and I don't exempt gifts from this. But seeing all the mass produced, gimmicky crap around this time of year? It's a painful reminder that the geologic legacy of the human species is going to be massive trash piles everywhere. Yay.

The other bit is that how mainstream culture celebrates Christmas is almost entirely at odds with how I view that time of year. This is something that alienates me from other Pagans as well, because your typical Pagan will celebrate Winter Solstice in a very light-fixated fashion. That is to say, it's seen as being about the rebirth of light. For me, it is a celebration of darkness, silence, and stillness. It's a time to do things like fast from all forms of technology and fire, to embark on a hermitage, engage in rituals of sensory deprivation, deep meditation, that sort of thing. So when people hang these blasted colorful lights everywhere, and do their singing and their extroverted activities, it is a horrible clash. It's bad enough that I can't actually immerse myself in total darkness for my Winter Solstice ritual like I want to without all the extra light pollution ruining the longest night of the year. It would make my year if there was some massive power outage on Winter Solstice - voluntary or storm-driven.

Well, I'm with you on both of those.

I like the idea of darkness actually. Something I've always wanted to do is camp out in the night and do star gazing. Looking at stars is an oddly religious experience when you think about the time scales and distances involved. The sense of being connected with "all that" can make me feel rooted in a way.

I gave up TV a few years ago and my family life has improved for it. My laptop broke earlier this year. I took it apart in a (failed) attemp to repair it. Seeing the actual components was a bit of a reality check and I held out from buying a new one. I was really angry as I had spare components left over from a previous broken laptop but that weren't designed to be compatible (both made by HP). It's been several months now and I'm still without a laptop and actually a lot happier for it. I even talk to my parents now rather than just hide in my room staring at a screen. I'm still on the internet too much but it's better than it was. Technology is a great way to alienate people.

My parents have a summer house down the garden. There is no electrify and it's easy to just relax, fall asleep and meditate. Time is really still in there and it's a rare space to think.

I'm guessing you celebrate Christmas differently than I do. I bought my parents a present each the past two years and then help out on the Christmas dinner. It's repetitive and predictable- but my parents like it that way.

 

[Parchment]

This should be considered a classic, contains profanity so fair warning:

 

[suncowiam]

OMG
It is just me, or do the anti Christmas threads start earlier and earlier every year?
Tom

LOL

It's not you.

I guess people hate Christmas that much.

bah humbug!

 

[McBell]

OMG
It is just me, or do the anti Christmas threads start earlier and earlier every year?
Tom

I remember the good old days when the anti-halloween threads started before the anti-christmas threads....