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Anti-choicers: this is the fruit of your labour

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
predicts an increase in 815 pregnancy-related deaths per year as a result of the overturning of Roe v. Wade.
So you posted a study that makes up a scenario that hasn't happened? You do know that abortion wasn't banned, right?
And fails to mention how many babies would get to be born that would not have otherwise?

Now how about showing me who really has died because of Roe being overturned at the decision given back to the states?
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I was hoping for some more tangible evidence that things like this were taking place. It doesn't look like anything but baseless speculation about what might happen. It's worrying and fear mongering imo.
Well this 10 year old child was already denied a medically necessary abortion, due to the shaky laws as a direct consequence of the R v W decision. A scenario that is abhorrent to any medical professional, by the way. Duty of care has already been severely compromised in this case and indeed has been interfered with by the law.
So such speculation seems rather warranted and is apparently coming to fruition as we speak. But like I said, I’m not from the states so I can only go by what you guys give me
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Apparently being pro life now makes one a rapist. Thanks for clarifying that. :rolleyes:
Anti-choicers certainly have the same disregard for consent and bodily autonomy that rapists do.

Really the only difference I see between you and your fellow anti-choicers and rapists:

- in a rape, there's typically one perpetrator and one victim.

- in what you do, you team up in large numbers to violate victims in large numbers.

That's it. What you do is just as immoral.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
So you posted a study that makes up a scenario that hasn't happened? You do know that abortion wasn't banned, right?
And fails to mention how many babies would get to be born that would not have otherwise?

Now how about showing me who really has died because of Roe being overturned at the decision given back to the states?
Are you under the impression that women don't die from lack of access to abortion?

"Every year, worldwide, about 42 million women with unintended pregnancies choose abortion, and nearly half of these procedures, 20 million, are unsafe. Some 68,000 women die of unsafe abortion annually, making it one of the leading causes of maternal mortality (13%). Of the women who survive unsafe abortion, 5 million will suffer long-term health complications. Unsafe abortion is thus a pressing issue. Both of the primary methods for preventing unsafe abortion—less restrictive abortion laws and greater contraceptive use—face social, religious, and political obstacles, particularly in developing nations, where most unsafe abortions (97%) occur. Even where these obstacles are overcome, women and health care providers need to be educated about contraception and the availability of legal and safe abortion, and women need better access to safe abortion and postabortion services. Otherwise, desperate women, facing the financial burdens and social stigma of unintended pregnancy and believing they have no other option, will continue to risk their lives by undergoing unsafe abortions."
Unsafe Abortion: Unnecessary Maternal Mortality

"Lack of access to safe, affordable, timely and respectful abortion care, and the stigma associated with abortion, pose risks to women’s physical and mental well-being throughout the life-course.

Inaccessibility of quality abortion care risks violating a range of human rights of women and girls, including the right to life; the right to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health; the right to benefit from scientific progress and its realization; the right to decide freely and responsibly on the number, spacing and timing of children; and the right to be free from torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment.

Each year, 4.7–13.2% of maternal deaths can be attributed to unsafe abortion (3). In developed regions, it is estimated that 30 women die for every 100 000 unsafe abortions. In developing regions, that number rises to 220 deaths per 100 000 unsafe abortions (2). Estimates from 2012 indicate that in developing countries alone, 7 million women per year were treated in hospital facilities for complications of unsafe abortion (4)."
Abortion



Are you unaware of the already abysmally high maternal mortality rate in the US?

"Among 11 developed countries, the United States has the highest maternal mortality rate, a relative undersupply of maternity care providers, and is the only country not to guarantee access to provider home visits or paid parental leave in the postpartum period, a recent report from The Commonwealth Fund concluded. ...

Maternal deaths have been increasing in the United States since 2000, and although 700 pregnancy-related deaths occur each year, two-thirds of these deaths are considered to be preventable."
US Ranks Worst in Maternal Care, Mortality Compared With 10 Other Developed Nations

"Women in the U.S. are the most likely to die from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth.
In 2018, there were 17 maternal deaths for every 100,000 live births in the U.S. — a ratio more than double that of most other high-income countries (Exhibit 1). In contrast, the maternal mortality ratio was three per 100,000 or fewer in in the Netherlands, Norway, and New Zealand."
Maternal Mortality and Maternity Care in the United States Compared to 10 Other Developed Countries



How about the equally abysmally high infant mortality rate?

"And with respect to infant mortality, the U.S. ranks 33 out of 36 Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) nations. In 2018, while infant mortality reached an all-time low in the U.S., at 5.9 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, still more than 21,000 infants died. Compared to countries with a similar GDP, the U.S. infant mortality rate is much higher. France and the U.K., for example, have 3.8 deaths per 1,000 live births. ...

Among the leading causes of infant deaths are maternal pregnancy complications, premature birth, and low birth weight. Lower birth weight or a lower gestational age at birth predispose infants to worse outcomes. But, compared to other countries, U.S. babies of similar birth weight and gestational age also fared relatively poorly, with a higher neonatal mortality rate (deaths within the first month of life) and a higher post-neonatal mortality rate (deaths in months one through twelve)."
U.S. Maternal And Infant Mortality: More Signs Of Public Health Neglect



This sounds to me like a country that cares more about blastocysts/embryos/zygotes/fetuses than about actual living and breathing human beings. Overturning Roe v. Wade is only going to make this much, much worse, if actual data and history tell us anything.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Anti-choicers certainly have the same disregard for consent and bodily autonomy that rapists do.

Really the only difference I see between you and your fellow anti-choicers and rapists:

- in a rape, there's typically one perpetrator and one victim.

- in what you do, you team up in large numbers to violate victims in large numbers.

That's it. What you do is just as immoral.
Lol, now I've heard everything. The most illogical people in the universe exist on RF.
Killing babies now makes you moral.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Are you under the impression that women don't die from lack of access to abortion?

"Every year, worldwide, about 42 million women with unintended pregnancies choose abortion, and nearly half of these procedures, 20 million, are unsafe. Some 68,000 women die of unsafe abortion annually, making it one of the leading causes of maternal mortality (13%). Of the women who survive unsafe abortion, 5 million will suffer long-term health complications. Unsafe abortion is thus a pressing issue. Both of the primary methods for preventing unsafe abortion—less restrictive abortion laws and greater contraceptive use—face social, religious, and political obstacles, particularly in developing nations, where most unsafe abortions (97%) occur. Even where these obstacles are overcome, women and health care providers need to be educated about contraception and the availability of legal and safe abortion, and women need better access to safe abortion and postabortion services. Otherwise, desperate women, facing the financial burdens and social stigma of unintended pregnancy and believing they have no other option, will continue to risk their lives by undergoing unsafe abortions."
Unsafe Abortion: Unnecessary Maternal Mortality

"Lack of access to safe, affordable, timely and respectful abortion care, and the stigma associated with abortion, pose risks to women’s physical and mental well-being throughout the life-course.

Inaccessibility of quality abortion care risks violating a range of human rights of women and girls, including the right to life; the right to the highest attainable standard of physical and mental health; the right to benefit from scientific progress and its realization; the right to decide freely and responsibly on the number, spacing and timing of children; and the right to be free from torture, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment.

Each year, 4.7–13.2% of maternal deaths can be attributed to unsafe abortion (3). In developed regions, it is estimated that 30 women die for every 100 000 unsafe abortions. In developing regions, that number rises to 220 deaths per 100 000 unsafe abortions (2). Estimates from 2012 indicate that in developing countries alone, 7 million women per year were treated in hospital facilities for complications of unsafe abortion (4)."
Abortion



Are you unaware of the already abysmally high maternal mortality rate in the US?

"Among 11 developed countries, the United States has the highest maternal mortality rate, a relative undersupply of maternity care providers, and is the only country not to guarantee access to provider home visits or paid parental leave in the postpartum period, a recent report from The Commonwealth Fund concluded. ...

Maternal deaths have been increasing in the United States since 2000, and although 700 pregnancy-related deaths occur each year, two-thirds of these deaths are considered to be preventable."
US Ranks Worst in Maternal Care, Mortality Compared With 10 Other Developed Nations

"Women in the U.S. are the most likely to die from complications related to pregnancy or childbirth.
In 2018, there were 17 maternal deaths for every 100,000 live births in the U.S. — a ratio more than double that of most other high-income countries (Exhibit 1). In contrast, the maternal mortality ratio was three per 100,000 or fewer in in the Netherlands, Norway, and New Zealand."
Maternal Mortality and Maternity Care in the United States Compared to 10 Other Developed Countries



How about the equally abysmally high infant mortality rate?

"And with respect to infant mortality, the U.S. ranks 33 out of 36 Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) nations. In 2018, while infant mortality reached an all-time low in the U.S., at 5.9 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, still more than 21,000 infants died. Compared to countries with a similar GDP, the U.S. infant mortality rate is much higher. France and the U.K., for example, have 3.8 deaths per 1,000 live births. ...

Among the leading causes of infant deaths are maternal pregnancy complications, premature birth, and low birth weight. Lower birth weight or a lower gestational age at birth predispose infants to worse outcomes. But, compared to other countries, U.S. babies of similar birth weight and gestational age also fared relatively poorly, with a higher neonatal mortality rate (deaths within the first month of life) and a higher post-neonatal mortality rate (deaths in months one through twelve)."
U.S. Maternal And Infant Mortality: More Signs Of Public Health Neglect



This sounds to me like a country that cares more about blastocysts/embryos/zygotes/fetuses than about actual living and breathing human beings. Overturning Roe v. Wade is only going to make this much, much worse, if actual data and history tell us anything.
So the leading cause of death to pregnant woman is abortion. How predictable. It's also the leading cause of death for the unborn.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So the leading cause of death to pregnant woman is abortion. How predictable. It's also the leading cause of death for the unborn.
That is disingenuous to say the least. Unsafe abortions, which you advocate for, are the leading cause of death to pregnant women.
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I don't advocate for any abortion. Quit bearing false witness.
But you are. When you ban legal abortions you leave desperate women with no choice.

I bore no false witness. When something that you advocate for has negative results you have advocated for those negative results as well. That is why one's actions should be well thought out when they affect others. You have not fully thought out your antichoice stance.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Another false statement. You are on a roll.
There's lots of choices available.
Nope, that is a true statement. You are making the error of assuming that there are other viable solutions. Facts are facts, when abortions are made illegal the number of illegal abortions go up. Those that banned abortions and did nothing else, as you have, are as a result advocating for those abortions.

Tell me, as part of your abortion ban did you offer to pay for all contraceptives to try to help avert the need for an abortion? Did you offer to support the women financially so that they would not have an economic debt that she could never recover from? And how did you offer to help the pregnant women for the bodily changes that pregnancy to term will cause? If you cannot answer appropriately you advocated for illegal abortions. You advocated for the deaths of pregnant women. Actions do have consequences. You want to take an action but deny the responsibility for the consequences.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
But you are. When you ban legal abortions you leave desperate women with no choice.

I bore no false witness. When something that you advocate for has negative results you have advocated for those negative results as well. That is why one's actions should be well thought out when they affect others. You have not fully thought out your antichoice stance.
Classic liberal thinking:
" 1.Abortion kills women."
"2. That's an unfortunate truth, therefore we declare that's it's actually pro lifers killing the women, not the abortion providers that are doing the killing."

It makes perfect sense if you have a liberal brain educated by a slew of liberal professors that don't live in the real world.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Classic liberal thinking:
" 1.Abortion kills women."
"2. That's an unfortunate truth, therefore we declare that's it's actually pro lifers killing the women, not the abortion providers that are doing the killing."

It makes perfect sense if you have a liberal brain educated by a slew of liberal professors that don't live in the real world.
You forgot the important part, UNSAFE abortions kill women.
Lack of access to SAFE abortions kill women.
You don't care about women though.
You care about fetuses up until they're born.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Classic liberal thinking:
" 1.Abortion kills women."
"2. That's an unfortunate truth, therefore we declare that's it's actually pro lifers killing the women, not the abortion providers that are doing the killing."

It makes perfect sense if you have a liberal brain educated by a slew of liberal professors that don't live in the real world.
You used a strawman argument. That is as much as admitting that you cannot refute the actual argument used by your opponents. It is also less than honest, and you have the never to claim that I was bearing false witness.

The correct version of your argument is:

1. Illegal abortions kill women.
2 That an unfortunate truth advocated for the the people that falsely claim to be "prolife" but have refuted that claim by not providing viable alternatives when they banned legal abortions.

Like it or not you are advocating for illegal abortions by not providing viable alternatives.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
You used a strawman argument. That is as much as admitting that you cannot refute the actual argument used by your opponents. It is also less than honest, and you have the never to claim that I was bearing false witness.

The correct version of your argument is:

1. Illegal abortions kill women.
2 That an unfortunate truth advocated for the the people that falsely claim to be "prolife" but have refuted that claim by not providing viable alternatives when they banned legal abortions.

Like it or not you are advocating for illegal abortions by not providing viable alternatives.
Viable alternatives: birth.
Sources for help: crisis pregnancy centers.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Viable alternatives: birth.
Sources for help: crisis pregnancy centers.
Nope, those are shown not to be viable by the fact that illegal abortions exist. Women would not put themselves at risk if those options were enough.

By the way, why did you dodge my question about how you are going to recompense the pregnant woman? It was a reasonable question since that is a major factor that would motivate an illegal abortion. An unanswered reasonable question is also a tacit admission that one is wrong.
 

Wildswanderer

Veteran Member
Nope, those are shown not to be viable by the fact that illegal abortions exist. Women would not put themselves at risk if those options were enough.

By the way, why did you dodge my question about how you are going to recompense the pregnant woman? It was a reasonable question since that is a major factor that would motivate an illegal abortion. An unanswered reasonable question is also a tacit admission that one is wrong.
They exist because people choose death. Not because there's no other choice.
Again you are using the same liberal thinking that avoids personal responsibility at all costs.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
They exist because people choose death. Not because there's no other choice.
Again you are using the same liberal thinking that avoids personal responsibility at all costs.
No, that is not the case. And you are the one avoiding personal responsibility. You are responsible for the laws and rules that you support. You have no answer for your wrong doings. Meanwhile I can explain why abortion is not a wrong doing. It is a sadly needed service at times.

You should look into why European countries that have free and easy to get abortions also tend to have much lower abortion rates than the US. It is not because they are Christian. Most of those countries are less Christian than the US.
 
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