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Featured Answering Tzarah's Question about Hebrew text of Yoel 4:1

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by Ehav4Ever, May 11, 2020.

  1. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Ibn Ezra. Ibn Ezra is short for Rabbi Avraham ben-Meir ben-Ezra is was a Torath Mosheh commentator of the Torah. Don't worry I know it is not something you are used to.
     
  2. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    So now you're trying to contradict what the prophecies in the Torah and Tanakh say by using the writings of "rabbis"?
     
  3. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    @Ehav4Ever You need to explain how Joel 3:1-2 (Yoel 4:1-2) doesn't say what I "claim" it says, when in your video you pretty much confirm the fact that it's actually saying what I've been saying. Here is what I originally quoted from the KJV:

    JOEL 3:1

    "1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,"


    It says that in those days, and in that time, God will gather Judah and Jerusalem from captivity or "exile". According to the next verse, we know that the time and day being referenced is the day when God gathers all nations for judgement.

    According to you, the hebrew text "doesn't say what I claim". You created an entire video of you speaking hebrew and rambling on about the hebrew language but at the 12:53 mark of your video, this is what you say the verse means:

    [​IMG]

    Which is pretty much the exact same thing as all of the versions that I have been posting for the past 24 hours.

    At this point, I am convinced that you are a troll.
     
  4. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Like I said. You weren't paying attention.
    1. Torath Mosheh Jews start from the beginning of the text to the end.
    2. Those days that are mentioned several times before 4:1 and also include the events mentioned in 3:1.
    3. 3:1-5 to 4:1 on are talking about two seperate series of events. I.e. that there are are already Torath Mosheh Jews in the land of Israel when prophecy returns, in the land of Israel. Further, 3:5 states (ה וְהָיָה כֹּל אֲשֶׁר-יִקְרָא בְּשֵׁם יְהֹוָה יִמָּלֵט כִּי בְּהַר-צִיּוֹן וּבִירוּשָׁלַם תִּהְיֶה פְלֵיטָה כַּאֲשֶׁר אָמַר יְהֹוָה וּבַשְּׂרִידִים אֲשֶׁר יְהֹוָה קֹרֵא:) That is talking about Torath Mosheh Jews who are already in Har Tziyon and Yerushalayim and remain noted by the statement (וּבַשְּׂרִידִים אֲשֶׁר יְהֹוָה קֹרֵא) during the war of Gog uMagog.
    4. 4:1 is talking about the return of the exiles which are a different group from those mentioned in 3:5. I.e. no where in the Tanakh does it claim that all Jewish residents of Yehduah and Yerushalayim were exiled. See below.
    The Jewish Temples: The Babylonian Exile
    (597 - 538 BCE)

    "The Chaldeans, following standard Mesopotamian practice, deported the Jews after they had conquered Jerusalem in 597 BCE. The deportations were large, but certainly didn't involve the entire nation. Somewhere around 10,000 people were forced to relocate to the city of Babylon, the capital of the Chaldean empire. In 586 BCE, Yehudah itself ceased to be an independent kingdom, and the earlier deportees found themselves without a homeland, without a state, and without a nation. This period, which actually begins in 597 but is traditionally dated at 586, is called the Exile in Jewish history; it ends with an accident in 538 when the Persians overthrow the Chaldeans.

    Nebuchadnezzar, the king of the Chaldeans, only deported the most prominent citizens of Judah: professionals, priests, craftsmen, and the wealthy. The "people of the land" (am-hares ) were allowed to stay. So Jewish history, then, has two poles during the exile: the Jew in Babylon and the Jews who remain in Yehudah."

    Now here is the kicker. (Drum roll)

    There are a group of Hebrew Israelites who have been living in the land of Israel (Dimona, Israel) since the 1960's. See below.



    So maybe your group of Hebrew Israelites are not the same as the group of the Hebrew Israelites who are already living in the Negev desert. Maybe your group isn't doing something right.
     
    #24 Ehav4Ever, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
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  5. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    You're totally ignoring the point. The people who have been migrating to Israel since 1948 claim to be the tribe of Judah returning from exile.

    But the prophecy in Joel 4 says that Judah and Jerusalem will not be saved from exile until the day God judges all of the nations.

    On top of that, you've been trying to convince me this whole entire time that the hebrew text says something different but in your video you literally confirmed that it says Judah and Jerusalem will be saved from "exile" on the day when God judges the nations of the world.

    You like to type a lot and talk a lot, but it doesn't ever seem to help you.
     
  6. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Trust me when I tell I tell you. I am not here to convince you of anything.
     
  7. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    You created an entire video and dedicated it to me in this thread, trying to convince me that the text doesn't say what it says. Then when it came down to it, you ultimately proved that the text does actually say what I've been saying this whole time -- that God will save Judah and Jerusalem from captivity or "exile" on the day when he gathers all of the nations to judge them. It's hilarious.
     
  8. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Actually, if you look at my YouTube videos I make all kinds of videos for little or no reason. Besides, didn't make the video to convince you. I enjoy making videos. I made it to answer your questions. Whether you like the answer or not is not the issue for me. Besides, I had already make it clear that Hebrew Israelites and Torath Mosheh Jews are not the same people and we have different texts and understandings so.
     
    #28 Ehav4Ever, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
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  9. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    You keep saying that you have "different texts" as if that means something special but in your video you literally proved that what I was saying is right. :D
     
  10. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    I know it doesn't mean anything special to you. ;)
     
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  11. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying that hebrew isn't special. You still don't get it. You rambled on and on about hebrew and how you can speak hebrew but in the end you basically proved that the prophecy said exactly what I said it was saying. You're so obsessed with trying to make yourself look like some hebrew expert that you can't even realize how you've ultimately proved what I've been saying all along -- that the prophecy in Joel says Judah and Israel will be saved from captivity or "exile" on the day when God gathers all the nations to judge them.

    You wasted all of this time trying to look like a cool guy and in the end you just proved my point. I honestly feel sorry for you.
     
  12. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Rambling. Uh huh.
     
  13. Tazarah

    Tazarah Well-Known Member

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    Yeah... that's all you did... ramble... and in the end you STILL proved that I was right... Thanks. It was nice talking with you. I will leave you with these as a parting gift:

    "ISRAELI : Confesses Black Americans Are The Real Jews!!"



    "Caucasian Jew confesses the knowledge that the ORIGINAL JEWS are black! Mar 19, 2014"



    "Israeli woman Says Black People are the Real Jews: The Real Hebrew Israelites"

     
  14. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    What was that you were saying about rambling? ;)
     
  15. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    promoting tribalism is adverse to the Law

    proverbs 20:10

    leviticus 19:15-19


    its quite apparent that all nations could not fit in such a small space of the valley of jehoshaphat. the humble will be lifted up and the haughty struck down


    seriously people its esoteric






    without love all you got is chaos, dissension, i pray not so much.
     
    #35 Fool, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  16. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    This is very interesting.... question (as I go through it):

    The Aleppo Codex was made in 10th century AD... how do we know that it wasn't without errors?
     
  17. Ehav4Ever

    Ehav4Ever Well-Known Member

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    Greetings. I have attached a paper below that I wrote concerning the Torah that has been preserved in various Jewish communities. How we Jews verify the Torah (5 books of Moses) is different than the prophetic texts and the writings of the Tanakh.

    Concerning non-Torah text the method is more simple. What we Jews do, if there is a question about the authencity, is
    1. Compare the oldest Hebrew texts in the community we come from.
    2. Compare those Hebrew texts against the oldest Hebrew texts from the ancient Jewish communities. (Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Egypt, Italy, Spain, Greece, and Morocco.)
    3. Compare with texts such as the Leningrad codex and the those available from the Dead Sea scrolls.
    4. We compare statements made by Jewish sages that are found in the Mishnah, Talmuds, and Midrashim.
    5. We compare with the most ancient Jewish commentators from various Jewish communities.
    6. Lastly, we check with the archeology found here in Israel for new developments.
    Generally speaking, the rules for copying a Torah scroll are more stringent than those of the prophetic texts and the writings of the Tanakh. There is a saying amoung the sages of Israel from the Talmudic times is that during the days of return of Davidic Kingdom/rule here in Israel the only text from the Tanakh that will be relevant will the Torah and book of Esther. The other writings were only for causing the people of Israel to a) return to the Torah, b) give hope for the future, and c) inspire those who were keeping Torah correctly to continue.
     

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  18. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Question:

    In the original Hebrew texts, I thought there were no punctuation marks... correct?
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    Plead:

    I think that one of the problems in the video is that they are translating plead within a modern context instead of 1600's context. In other words, I'm not sure it is a problem.

    For an example:

    Plead:
    Law.
    1. to maintain (a cause) by argument before a court.
    2. to allege or set forth (something) formally in an action at law.
    3. to allege or cite in legal defense:
    Which would conform to what you are saying. God isn't "pleading" as in asking but rather "to set forth formally in an action of law" which is what the video is saying in the Hebrew language.

    I would assume that even the great Hebrew scholars would also have arguments on what YHWH was trying to say as they sought to interpret what was written.
     
    #39 KenS, May 13, 2020
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
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  20. KenS

    KenS Face to face with my Father
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    So, as I view and interpret what you are interpreting:

    Screen Shot 2020-05-13 at 1.32.56 PM.png

    I would agree that the original is always better.
    I would also agree that the Septuagint, a Jewish interpretation of the Hebrew text into Greek, was widely used and accepting by the Jewish teachers. (Apparently they didn't have a problem with a translation)
    I would hold that even Jewish scholars have differences of opinion on what was being said in Hebrew.
    I would hold that not all Jewish people read Hebrew and thus translations become helpful but one must study to show oneself approved.

    Finally, I think that Joel 4 or 3, depending on which one you are reading, was more of a misinterpretation of "plead" than it was a wrong translation (in this case). I would agree that KJV didn't always translate exactly.


    2 I will assemble all Israel’s enemies in the valley of Jehoshaphat—My judgment.
    I will judge them for how they treated My people, My legacy, Israel—
    Whom they deported and exiled to the nations.
    They divided My land among themselves; The Voice


    And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel, NKJV

    I will also gather all Goyim, and will bring them down into the valley of Yehoshafat, and will enter into judgment against them there concerning My people OJB

    Seems to be consistent with all English translations.
     
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