Answered prayer or coincidence?

[BilliardsBall]

How did you rule out confounding variables in your analysis? It's not surprising to me that many thousands of times in your life you may have observed, "I do x, then y happens." I've observed something similar, about many different things in my life. But how did you determine that it is God, and not something else, causing that chain of events to occur?

Telling me that your holy book says God is what causes it is not really an answer. That's just another claim. How did you determine that claim is actually correct, and there's not another explanation?

A just question. I ruled out confounding variables after realizing I'd had thousands of iterations. Put differently, I pray daily, for some big things, some little things, I've seen THOUSANDS of answers to prayers, healings, miracles. On balance, I see no confirmations via prayer and prayer answers that God is a deist, non-interactive God.

Pretend that like many men, I own two pairs of shoes only, brown and black. You predict for a year what I pull at random from the shoe shelf, thus 2^365. We'd logically conclude you had foreknowledge of my choice, whether by supernatural means or a more natural means.

I gave an example where God, thousands of times, has brought me prompt correction for a sin or prompt blessing for righteousness/effort/prayer/sanctification. 2^thousands...

My holy texts (multiple books, since you constantly use "book" as if 40 teams didn't author documents we bring together, despite hundreds of years of authorship in diverse cultures by diverse authors) is laser-specific about how to be blessed or cursed. I follow the rule book. I have rejected alternative explanations (I'm insane, I have psychic power to bend human wills and temporal events via prayer, etc.) as untenable. I also have reliable, trustworthy eyewitnesses, up to challengers and skeptics, who've seen miracles or relayed to me they see truth.

Occam's says the most popular text of all time, received by adherents as "working", works.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm arguing INTIMATELY familiar, having traveled the breadth of the known Roman world. Pilgrims who knew leaders, customs and people from gospel witnessing. Travel was fraught with peril compared today.

I don't doubt that early Christians travelled far distances - potentially at great personal risk - to proselytize.

This doesn't mean they did magic tricks and miracles on these trips, though.

 

[Left Coast]

A just question. I ruled out confounding variables after realizing I'd had thousands of iterations.

No no, I'm not questioning that you've seen thousands of iterations of "I do a, then b happens." The question is, why does b happen? How did you determine that it was God, and not something else, causing b to happen after you do a?

For example, let's say that I pray for my car to start today when I put the key in the ignition to start it. And then I put my key in the ignition, turn it, and the car starts. Was it God answering my prayer that caused the car to turn on?

How about if I do that 1,000 times, for the next 1,000 times I turn my car on? Every time, lo and behold, I turn the key, my car turns on. Can we conclude that my praying for my car to turn on had anything to do with my car actually turning on? Or is there another explanation (say, the internal mechanics of how a car works)?

That's the issue. If you pray for x, and then x happens, how did you determine that God caused x to happen as a function of your prayer?

Put differently, I pray daily, for some big things, some little things, I've seen THOUSANDS of answers to prayers, healings, miracles. On balance, I see no confirmations via prayer and prayer answers that God is a deist, non-interactive God.

You've seen miracles? Can you give an example? Have you submitted such evidence for peer review to an academic journal? That could be revolutionary.

I gave an example where God, thousands of times, has brought me prompt correction for a sin or prompt blessing for righteousness/effort/prayer/sanctification. 2^thousands...

No, you haven't actually given me any specific examples. You've claimed you've experienced things in general, I haven't seen any specifics.

Occam's says the most popular text of all time, received by adherents as "working", works.

You're aware that the Bible is the "most popular text of all time" as a function of theocracy, right? Please tell me you know that.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Depending on your definition, love can either mean a feeling, or a type of action. Ultimately, feelings can be, and are, measured neuroscientifically. If we define love as an action, we simply observe the interaction of individuals and compare what they do with our definition till we find a match. If we find a match, we label it, love.

Justice is a certain state of affairs between parties or individuals. We need simply to define what the characteristics of that state are, and then, like love, observe conditions in the world. When we find conditions that match, we label it a just situation.



As we've already covered, the fact that lots of people believe something doesn't make it true.



Truth is another label like love and justice that describes empirically identifiable conditions. Math and logic are abstract concepts we invented to analyze and quantify empirical things in our experience.



Oh trust me, I hear lots of things from lots of theists. I'm still waiting for one of then to actually demonstrate the truth of their claims about their god(s), though. How did your god demonstrate his existence to you?

I would like to see objective claims, like in the Bible. Filmed would be even better.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I don't doubt that early Christians travelled far distances - potentially at great personal risk - to proselytize.

This doesn't mean they did magic tricks and miracles on these trips, though.

What I'm looking for is why the most intense ancient historians, with the most historical facts within (NT writers, Luke as one example had 80 facts as cited in the Acts) were writing BS in their intense histories. Those two things don't go together! For example, the Book of Mormon has horrible "history" within that is simply, quickly refuted.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I'm looking for is why the most intense ancient historians, with the most historical facts within (NT writers, Luke as one example had 80 facts as cited in the Acts) were writing BS in their intense histories. Those two things don't go together!

Self aggrandizement? Trying to promote a religion they hoped to profit from? Delusion? Later insertion by someone looking to jazz up the story?

I'm sure that if you're open-minded, you can think of plenty of reasons why someone might want to do it.

For example, the Book of Mormon has horrible "history" within that is simply, quickly refuted.

Same with the New and Old Testaments.

 

[BilliardsBall]

No no, I'm not questioning that you've seen thousands of iterations of "I do a, then b happens." The question is, why does b happen? How did you determine that it was God, and not something else, causing b to happen after you do a?

For example, let's say that I pray for my car to start today when I put the key in the ignition to start it. And then I put my key in the ignition, turn it, and the car starts. Was it God answering my prayer that caused the car to turn on?

How about if I do that 1,000 times, for the next 1,000 times I turn my car on? Every time, lo and behold, I turn the key, my car turns on. Can we conclude that my praying for my car to turn on had anything to do with my car actually turning on? Or is there another explanation (say, the internal mechanics of how a car works)?

That's the issue. If you pray for x, and then x happens, how did you determine that God caused x to happen as a function of your prayer?



You've seen miracles? Can you give an example? Have you submitted such evidence for peer review to an academic journal? That could be revolutionary.



No, you haven't actually given me any specific examples. You've claimed you've experienced things in general, I haven't seen any specifics.



You're aware that the Bible is the "most popular text of all time" as a function of theocracy, right? Please tell me you know that.

I understand. There is a natural, reasonable cause-and-effect for turning a key designed to start a car ignition.

Are you surprised, therefore, that only rarely do I pray to God that my car key will turn my car on? (I hope not!) Because I do so only in severe inclement weather, when the indicator shows out of gas, etc. and my witness to you is that prayer per the Bible guidelines, and lifestyle per the Bible guidelines, the sin and righteousness mentioned, work contrary to the natural (miracles). Also, that I understand that God is subject to falsifiability tests, and requires extraordinary proof, etc., etc. from my rationalist-former-materialist-currently-logical mindset.

I'm unable to submit such miracle claims to peer review, because as you likely remember from your studies, God conceals Himself from the masses and reveals Himself to the initiated per the Bible. Consider, however, peer-reviewed proof of the Turin Shroud--it's convincingly a supernaturally created image on the cloth, that's not enough to make a skeptic change--unless the skeptic is open to God's truth claims. There IS peer-reviewed proof of many wonderful Bible truths, but we're dealing with data and interpretation again, from the scientific mindset.

Repeating, if you have brown and black shoes, there is no "key into car" reason why you guess right for a year or 2^365 times, but I MUST at that point assume you have supernatural or beyond the ordinary natural knowledge of my shoe wearing. Put differently, I cannot leave the Christian faith because I've seen God too often.

 

[Left Coast]

I understand. There is a natural, reasonable cause-and-effect for turning a key designed to start a car ignition.

Are you surprised, therefore, that only rarely do I pray to God that my car key will turn my car on? (I hope not!)

The car example was a simple one to illustrate my point. The fact that you pray for x, and then x happens, doesn't demonstrate that God/the prayer caused x. The fact that you don't know what else could have caused x, doesnt demonstrate that God/the prayer did it.

Because I do so only in severe inclement weather, when the indicator shows out of gas, etc. and my witness to you is that prayer per the Bible guidelines, and lifestyle per the Bible guidelines, the sin and righteousness mentioned, work contrary to the natural (miracles). Also, that I understand that God is subject to falsifiability tests, and requires extraordinary proof, etc., etc. from my rationalist-former-materialist-currently-logical mindset.

Great, so let's look at an actual example and see what extraordinary evidence there is. What's the last prayer you prayed in which you think God provided what you asked for? And how did he answer?

I'm unable to submit such miracle claims to peer review, because as you likely remember from your studies, God conceals Himself from the masses and reveals Himself to the initiated per the Bible.

So then it's not falsifiable. But you just admitted you know it needs to be.

Consider, however, peer-reviewed proof of the Turin Shroud--it's convincingly a supernaturally created image on the cloth, that's not enough to make a skeptic change--unless the skeptic is open to God's truth claims.

How did you come to the conclusion that the Shroud of Turin is "supernaturally created?"

There IS peer-reviewed proof of many wonderful Bible truths, but we're dealing with data and interpretation again, from the scientific mindset.

Again, when you see any peer-reviewed verification of any of the supernatural/miraculous stuff in the Bible, let me know.

Repeating, if you have brown and black shoes, there is no "key into car" reason why you guess right for a year or 2^365 times, but I MUST at that point assume you have supernatural or beyond the ordinary natural knowledge of my shoe wearing.

No, you don't have to assume that at all. You could reasonably infer that I have some knowledge or technique for accurately predicting your shoe selection, but you have no idea if that knowledge or technique is supernatural. It could be a completely natural technique or knowledge that you're simply unaware of.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The car example was a simple one to illustrate my point. The fact that you pray for x, and then x happens, doesn't demonstrate that God/the prayer caused x. The fact that you don't know what else could have caused x, doesnt demonstrate that God/the prayer did it.



Great, so let's look at an actual example and see what extraordinary evidence there is. What's the last prayer you prayed in which you think God provided what you asked for? And how did he answer?



So then it's not falsifiable. But you just admitted you know it needs to be.



How did you come to the conclusion that the Shroud of Turin is "supernaturally created?"



Again, when you see any peer-reviewed verification of any of the supernatural/miraculous stuff in the Bible, let me know.



No, you don't have to assume that at all. You could reasonably infer that I have some knowledge or technique for accurately predicting your shoe selection, but you have no idea if that knowledge or technique is supernatural. It could be a completely natural technique or knowledge that you're simply unaware of.

Let's start with the Shroud, since you won't accept my anecdotal evidence regardless of limiters you put on it.

There are peer-reviewed studies on the shroud. The shroud contains extraordinary evidence for being the burial cloth (and resurrection cloth) of Jesus Christ.

 

[Wandering Monk]

The shroud contains extraordinary evidence for being the burial cloth (and resurrection cloth) of Jesus Christ.

Even the Catholic Church won't go THAT far.

 

[Left Coast]

Let's start with the Shroud, since you won't accept my anecdotal evidence regardless of limiters you put on it.

I'm disappointed at your avoidance of my question regarding prayer. You claim to have literally thousands of examples of praying for something, and then a supernatural deity granting your request. Surely with such a plethora of evidence, it should be straightforward to demonstrate. All I asked for was your most recent example. If that makes you uncomfortable (perhaps the most recent prayer was of a personal nature, I understand that), then just offer your most convincing example.

There are peer-reviewed studies on the shroud. The shroud contains extraordinary evidence for being the burial cloth (and resurrection cloth) of Jesus Christ.

I'm aware there have been peer-reviewed studies of it. Which of them concluded your second sentence as a fact?

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm disappointed at your avoidance of my question regarding prayer. You claim to have literally thousands of examples of praying for something, and then a supernatural deity granting your request. Surely with such a plethora of evidence, it should be straightforward to demonstrate. All I asked for was your most recent example. If that makes you uncomfortable (perhaps the most recent prayer was of a personal nature, I understand that), then just offer your most convincing example.



I'm aware there have been peer-reviewed studies of it. Which of them concluded your second sentence as a fact?

I don't need prayer at all! I'd rather commend to you how simple obedience of biblical principle "does it" without God's intervention of "prayer will". For example, God has come through for me in money matters innumerable times, in extraordinary ways, as I follow principles of tithing and offerings. Recently, I gave a sizable amount by faith, with permission of my spouse, and saw a sale come through, unexpected, multiple inventory, to the penny I gave--I didn't give to get--but such a thing has happened multiple times to me.

Would you like me to pray, however, that God does something specific, measurable and extraordinary in your life, to help? Is that permitted via RF rules?

If you want to talk of the shroud, from memory:

*its design requires an electron microscope to see its root elements (individual, whole cross-hatched threads of cloth that are dark or light, finer than any known technique can imitate)
*it holds Jerusalem thorn pollen, which thorn grows only in Israel
*the original shroud and weaving technique are 1st century Israel
*the blood flows are anatomically correct, consistent with studies done on crucified cadavers
*the image comes into incredible relief, anatomically correct in every way, when projected from 2D to 3D with no angle (0 degrees straight skyward, the image consistent with a real cadaver under the shroud)
*the image is of a man buried with 1st century coins placed on his eyes (which coins and which burial method were unknown in the Renaissance but became known in quite recent archaeology)
*the best way to describe the perfection of the image is light shooting out from the body to heaven or vice versa, but no know process of light, paint, radiation, etc. can reproduce the shroud, and certainly not to the level of binary on/off threads that are light/dark visible under an electron microscope
*one can hold up an archaeologically unearthed Roman flagrum (torture device used in floggings) to the shroud image, to see exact matches to the metal and bone shards on this horrid device
*etc., etc. including tracing sightings of the shroud a millennium before the Renaissance
*I'm also aware of the apologetics to Shroud counter-arguments, like carbon dating it to a time when the Shroud caught fire, and dating the fired regions and the patches added by Rome to the shroud at the time of the fire incident!

 

[Left Coast]

I don't need prayer at all! I'd rather commend to you how simple obedience of biblical principle "does it" without God's intervention of "prayer will". For example, God has come through for me in money matters innumerable times, in extraordinary ways, as I follow principles of tithing and offerings. Recently, I gave a sizable amount by faith, with permission of my spouse, and saw a sale come through, unexpected, multiple inventory, to the penny I gave--I didn't give to get--but such a thing has happened multiple times to me.

Ah okay, a classic example. Now how did you determine that the causal mechanism for the sale that came through was a blessing by a supernatural being? Quoting the Bible won't do, that's just another claim like you claiming it or me claiming it. How was the causal mechanism actually demonstrated to you?

Would you like me to pray, however, that God does something specific, measurable and extraordinary in your life, to help? Is that permitted via RF rules?

I wouldn't mind at all! I have no idea if it's permitted, I don't see why not. Pray that I grow wings today so I can fly. Actual, physical wings, not metaphorical ones, growing out of my shoulder blades in stereotypical angelic fashion.

Now, if I do somehow grow wings today, that would certainly be impressive and I'd be quite tempted to believe you have some sort of ability beyond my understanding. But how would you or I demonstrate that it occurred because a supernatural being caused it?

If you want to talk of the shroud, from memory:

*its design requires an electron microscope to see its root elements (individual, whole cross-hatched threads of cloth that are dark or light, finer than any known technique can imitate)
*it holds Jerusalem thorn pollen, which thorn grows only in Israel
*the original shroud and weaving technique are 1st century Israel
*the blood flows are anatomically correct, consistent with studies done on crucified cadavers
*the image comes into incredible relief, anatomically correct in every way, when projected from 2D to 3D with no angle (0 degrees straight skyward, the image consistent with a real cadaver under the shroud)
*the image is of a man buried with 1st century coins placed on his eyes (which coins and which burial method were unknown in the Renaissance but became known in quite recent archaeology)
*the best way to describe the perfection of the image is light shooting out from the body to heaven or vice versa, but no know process of light, paint, radiation, etc. can reproduce the shroud, and certainly not to the level of binary on/off threads that are light/dark visible under an electron microscope
*one can hold up an archaeologically unearthed Roman flagrum (torture device used in floggings) to the shroud image, to see exact matches to the metal and bone shards on this horrid device
*etc., etc. including tracing sightings of the shroud a millennium before the Renaissance
*I'm also aware of the apologetics to Shroud counter-arguments, like carbon dating it to a time when the Shroud caught fire, and dating the fired regions and the patches added by Rome to the shroud at the time of the fire incident!

Nearly every one of your memories here is factually incorrect. Even the Wikipedia article on the Shroud (which is surprisingly well-referenced) should relieve you of most of your misconceptions.

Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia

Unsurprisingly, virtually all the peer- reviewed research on it points to it being a medieval fraud.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Does God answer prayer? I can give you at least six million reasons why he doesn't.

 

[Milton Platt]

The same way scientists test things. Repeatibility. If something is a one-off with no long-term effects, it's a coincidence. If good fortune keeps happening, then it's an answer to a prayer.

Precisely how frequent does something have to happen to be an answer to a prayer rather than a coincidence and how did you make that determination?

 

[Trailblazer]

The car example was a simple one to illustrate my point. The fact that you pray for x, and then x happens, doesn't demonstrate that God/the prayer caused x. The fact that you don't know what else could have caused x, doesnt demonstrate that God/the prayer did it.

You are right about the car example, there is no way to know if God answered the prayer.

In general it is not a good idea to pray for x, but rather to pray for assistance, and let God decide what the outcome will be, because God knows what is best. I always act to try to address the problem I am having, but when there is no more that can be done, I pray like there is no tomorrow, because I know that only God can help me, IF He chooses to. I have been praying for two days, 4 hours yesterday, 4 hours today. I got an answer I was not expecting and I consider it a miracle. It might not last but I live one day at a time and try to accept God's will, whatever that is.

An interesting thing has been happening for the last few years. When I accept God's will, things that never happened before have happened, and they are miracles. I think God knows I am ready to accept whatever His will is so He does not have to test me anymore. In the past, I did not accept God's will and things did not go as I hoped they would. Of course, this is just my theory as to why things happened, I could never prove it, but it has been repetitive so to me that is some evidence.

I am not saying that everything has gone my way, far from it, but somehow I got through the tragedies whereas in the past when I did not turn to God, the same experiences landed me in urgent care on many occasions.

Great, so let's look at an actual example and see what extraordinary evidence there is. What's the last prayer you prayed in which you think God provided what you asked for? And how did he answer?

I do not want to get specific about what I am going through right now, but I have a story I want to share about prayer. A good forum friend of mine had a cat who was 20 years old and that cat was in his last days owing to kidney failure. That cat meant everything to him and he told me his life would never be the same after that cat passed on. Towards the end when his cat was looking really bad and really suffering he cried out to God for help, even though he was an atheist, because intuitively he knew that was his last option. He made a deal with God that if God answered his desperate prayer, he would never rank on God again, as he had been doing, since he was a regular poster on a Christian forum and my forum ranking on Christian beliefs.

Within minutes of his prayer, the cat's droopy dribbling eyes completely cleared up and the cat got up and went over to the food dish and ate a whole lot of food and drank water. His cat walked normally, jumped up on the bed, whereas before it could barely walk. The cat passed on not long after that, but my friend told my other friend that he planned to keep his part of the bargain. He never ranked on God again, and he said he is no longer an atheist. Interestingly, his friend was so taken by what happened he now also believes in God!

I have not posted to my friend with the cat since because he left my forum. My other friend who lives near him went with him to the animal shelter and he got another cat that was perfect for him, and he has been very happy. I honestly never thought he would recover because I never saw him that depressed. He warned me that after the cat passed on he would not me back to forums because he knew that would change his life. He just did not know it would be for the better.

This story made me think of another story. A few years ago, a poster showed up on a Baha'i forum and I came to find out he had been an atheist but now believes in God. From what he had posted I could tell his faith in God far exceeded mine so I sent him a private post and asked him what happened to him. He then told me his long story. I cannot remember every detail, but I saved it in a Word document to refer back to later. The gist of it is that he had been going through some very difficult times and he was at the end of his rope. While was driving on a country road he cried out to God for help. Almost immediately, his car radio went berserk and he got some kind of communication from God that God had heard his prayer. That man has never been the same since.

I never used to believe these things really happened but that is not the only time I have heard a story like this. Another man I knew from forums who had been an atheist since childhood (both his parents were atheists) wanted to know if God exists so he looked up into the sky and asked for a sign. That night he got his answer.

I am sorry I cannot remember all the details because these things were posted several years ago, but that is the gist. Both these men became faithful believers. They did not join a religion right away, but shortly after they realized that God existed, they started researching religions. I do not know why the man who had the car radio experience ended up on a Baha'i forum, but the other one who looked up into the sky told us the reason he came to a Baha'i forum is because what was revealed to him that night was very similar to what Baha'is believe. That man researched the Baha'i Faith and then the Bible. I lost track of him after that.

I never have supernatural experiences and it is my theory that is because God knows I will believe in Him without them. I really thing that if people sincerely reach out to God, God will give them a sign, but the common thread that runs through all these experiences is that it has to be done in humility.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Ah okay, a classic example. Now how did you determine that the causal mechanism for the sale that came through was a blessing by a supernatural being? Quoting the Bible won't do, that's just another claim like you claiming it or me claiming it. How was the causal mechanism actually demonstrated to you?



I wouldn't mind at all! I have no idea if it's permitted, I don't see why not. Pray that I grow wings today so I can fly. Actual, physical wings, not metaphorical ones, growing out of my shoulder blades in stereotypical angelic fashion.

Now, if I do somehow grow wings today, that would certainly be impressive and I'd be quite tempted to believe you have some sort of ability beyond my understanding. But how would you or I demonstrate that it occurred because a supernatural being caused it?



Nearly every one of your memories here is factually incorrect. Even the Wikipedia article on the Shroud (which is surprisingly well-referenced) should relieve you of most of your misconceptions.

Shroud of Turin - Wikipedia

Unsurprisingly, virtually all the peer- reviewed research on it points to it being a medieval fraud.

1) The causal mechanism for the sale and similar was "a buyer made a purchase". It is the amount of the purchase(s) that are incredibly statistically unlikely, therefore, statistically significant.

2) Your prayer request is unbiblical since God will never do anything to crush your will utterly, He allows you to freely pursue or freely ignore Him.

3) The Wikipedia article address nearly zero of what I wrote except the pollen studies and some who considered them disreputable.

 

[Left Coast]

You are right about the car example, there is no way to know if God answered the prayer.

And that's the case with every example so far in this thread.

I am not saying that everything has gone my way, far from it, but somehow I got through the tragedies whereas in the past when I did not turn to God, the same experiences landed me in urgent care on many occasions.

I have no doubt that belief in God brings people real, measurable comfort through hard times. The question is whether it's the belief, or an actual deity causing the comfort. Given the fact that so many people report something similar re: the comfort and hope their god(s) allegedly bring them, regardless of which god(s) it is, that strongly suggests it's the belief doing the work.

I do not want to get specific about what I am going through right now, but I have a story I want to share about prayer. A good forum friend of mine had a cat who was 20 years old and that cat was in his last days owing to kidney failure. That cat meant everything to him and he told me his life would never be the same after that cat passed on. Towards the end when his cat was looking really bad and really suffering he cried out to God for help, even though he was an atheist, because intuitively he knew that was his last option. He made a deal with God that if God answered his desperate prayer, he would never rank on God again, as he had been doing, since he was a regular poster on a Christian forum and my forum ranking on Christian beliefs.

Within minutes of his prayer, the cat's droopy dribbling eyes completely cleared up and the cat got up and went over to the food dish and ate a whole lot of food and drank water. His cat walked normally, jumped up on the bed, whereas before it could barely walk. The cat passed on not long after that, but my friend told my other friend that he planned to keep his part of the bargain. He never ranked on God again, and he said he is no longer an atheist. Interestingly, his friend was so taken by what happened he now also believes in God!

As a fellow cat lover, this story certainly pulls at the heartstrings. The thing is, are we seriously to believe that an omnipotent deity answered this guy's prayer by temporarily giving this poor cat a little relief, while ultimately still letting him die "not long after that?" What kind of twisted game is that?

This story made me think of another story. A few years ago, a poster showed up on a Baha'i forum and I came to find out he had been an atheist but now believes in God. From what he had posted I could tell his faith in God far exceeded mine so I sent him a private post and asked him what happened to him. He then told me his long story. I cannot remember every detail, but I saved it in a Word document to refer back to later. The gist of it is that he had been going through some very difficult times and he was at the end of his rope. While was driving on a country road he cried out to God for help. Almost immediately, his car radio went berserk and he got some kind of communication from God that God had heard his prayer. That man has never been the same since.

I never used to believe these things really happened but that is not the only time I have heard a story like this. Another man I knew from forums who had been an atheist since childhood (both his parents were atheists) wanted to know if God exists so he looked up into the sky and asked for a sign. That night he got his answer.

I am sorry I cannot remember all the details because these things were posted several years ago, but that is the gist. Both these men became faithful believers. They did not join a religion right away, but shortly after they realized that God existed, they started researching religions. I do not know why the man who had the car radio experience ended up on a Baha'i forum, but the other one who looked up into the sky told us the reason he came to a Baha'i forum is because what was revealed to him that night was very similar to what Baha'is believe. That man researched the Baha'i Faith and then the Bible. I lost track of him after that.

I'd be fascinated to know the details of those stories. How did they know God was communicating with them? Did they hear an audible voice? Was anyone else around? What kind of "sign" did the second guy get? I realize you probably don't know them, but they are pretty key to figuring out what did or didn't happen.

I've never experienced anything demonstrably supernatural, despite asking when I was a believer. I've certainly felt emotional comfort, peace, etc. as a function of my faith, but now that I understand the psychology of faith, I realize that never implied anything supernatural.

 

[Left Coast]

1) The causal mechanism for the sale and similar was "a buyer made a purchase". It is the amount of the purchase(s) that are incredibly statistically unlikely, therefore, statistically significant.

People tend to infer meaning from statistically unlikely scenarios that is simply unwarranted.

Statistically unlikely things are guaranteed to happen, purely by chance, a small percentage of the time. There are 7+ billion people in the world, engaging in literally billions of financial transactions daily. With that volume, serendipitous numerical coincidences are statistically certain. The fact that you donated a certain amount of money to your church or wherever, and then got that same amount of money in a sale, is of course an unlikely coincidence. But you have no rational reason to think it's more than that.

2) Your prayer request is unbiblical since God will never do anything to crush your will utterly, He allows you to freely pursue or freely ignore Him.

How does giving me wings "crush my will utterly?"

3) The Wikipedia article address nearly zero of what I wrote except the pollen studies and some who considered them disreputable.

Then you didn't read it very carefully. Blood pattern, addressed. Anatomical features, addressed. Coins on the eyes, addressed. First historical mention, addressed.

Which peer reviewed study of the Shroud has concluded that, "the shroud contains extraordinary evidence for being the burial cloth (and resurrection cloth) of Jesus Christ?"

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no doubt that belief in God brings people real, measurable comfort through hard times. The question is whether it's the belief, or an actual deity causing the comfort.

Yes, that is a very important point. I would not want to have a belief that brought me comfort unless it was based upon a deity that actually exists.

Given the fact that so many people report something similar re: the comfort and hope their god(s) allegedly bring them, regardless of which god(s) it is, that strongly suggests it's the belief doing the work.

According to my beliefs there is only one true God, so even though people have various conceptions of that God, I do not think it really matters which conception brings them comfort and hope. What would matter is if there was no God at all, because them they would have false hope. If it could be proven that there is no God, then we would know it was the belief and nothing more.

As a fellow cat lover, this story certainly pulls at the heartstrings. The thing is, are we seriously to believe that an omnipotent deity answered this guy's prayer by temporarily giving this poor cat a little relief, while ultimately still letting him die "not long after that?" What kind of twisted game is that?

I am also a cat lover big-time, so when this was happening to him it was as if it was happening to me.

I do not see it as a game and neither did my friend. For him, it was a test to see if God really existed. He knew that cat was not long for this world, and at least the cat did not suffer and he was able to be with him when he passed at home. That cat might have been able to live longer if he had taken it to the vet as I suggested, but he did not trust any vets because of past experiences so he just decided to let it pass on naturally, with no treatments. He was rational enough to realize that 20 years old is really old for a cat and he did not want to put his cat through treatments.

The very sad fact of life is that if we have cats we love, they will die eventually, no matter how many treatments they get. The best we can do is prolong their lives. It is not as if God can make them live forever, and of course the same applies to humans.

I'd be fascinated to know the details of those stories. How did they know God was communicating with them? Did they hear an audible voice? Was anyone else around? What kind of "sign" did the second guy get? I realize you probably don't know them, but they are pretty key to figuring out what did or didn't happen.

All I have, if I could find it again, is what the one man wrote to me in a private post that I saved in a Word document. I would not post it here verbatim, but if I can find it I will give you some more details regarding what actually happened. The second man posted what happened to him on forums, but I cannot recall which forum it was on. I might have saved some of those posts in Word documents so I will see what I can find. In order to find the original posts you have to be a member of Delphi Forums with a paid membership that allows you to search back for years.

I've never experienced anything demonstrably supernatural, despite asking when I was a believer. I've certainly felt emotional comfort, peace, etc. as a function of my faith, but now that I understand the psychology of faith, I realize that never implied anything supernatural.

I understand what you mean about the psychology of faith, because anyone can imagine that what the emotions they feel are because of God even if God does not exist. Conversely, if God does exist those feelings are likely to be related to God in some way.