Another view on Bible violence (applies to any Scripture)

[stvdv]

The bible states god created evil, which is a verse most christians tend to omit when absolving god of the bad bits

God created everything, so of course also evil. I have no problem admitting that. That is a tough one to wrap my mind around though

We are not supposed to kill endangered species, but I had a cat here, and she (yes, the cat was even a lady) could not care less.
According to my neighbor she has killed a Dragonfly (an amazing big one, ca. 25 cm big). But karma is a ***** and cat got killed too

I think she might have exaggerated a bit, but I saw the cat in action myself... a real killing machine, and enjoying it even, playing with the animal; torture. Many times I thought "God, why create such cruelty; I would have created a world without cruelty, if I were God"). Alas, not yet.

Note: I checked the Dragonfly size. The biggest is 12.5 cm in Australia, so my neighbor doubled it only.

 

[stvdv]

One cannot blame the designed for the faults of the designer.

I agree. Bible seems to agree too, with Jesus telling us "do not judge"..."do not point fingers"...etc. But probably other verses say the opposite

 

[stvdv]

but fair enough, what would life be if everyone had a good time, right?

I think that would be great, if everyone had a good time. But then again, I am not God, probably I miss 1 or 2 important facts
By meditation at least it's possible to free ourselves from suffering, but we can't free others. All have their own path and responsibilities.

That is not really how evolution works... its not like the dinosaurs are in the process of throwing humans of the planet

Dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago (at the end of the Cretaceous Period), after living on Earth for about 165 million years.

They lived here for quite a long time compared to how short a period of time we have been here.

I never think of Dinosaurs and definitely not that we come from the Dinosaur. Humans look more like monkeys. And when you see humans watch monkeys doing their monkey stuff, people really enjoy it. Maybe they feel related, still

Yeah sure, except for those that die at an very early age, guess they will have to wait until we go extinct and new humans evolve for a second try?

No. We have reincarnation for that one, within 8 years (or something like that) you get another shot (some say)

Well Islam developed much later than Judaism and Christianity, funny that God didn't reveal himself to everyone at the same time... it's almost like, it was spread and developed by humans

Definitely it was spread and developed by humans. I think all agree on that (okay maybe not all)

 

[stvdv]

Yeah sure, except for those that die at an very early age, guess they will have to wait until we go extinct

My brother, before me, died after a few days. Then I came. I almost died at age 2, and later at age 33. Some say reincarnation works. Could be, I don't know. Then (reincarnation) you return soon (no need to go extinct as a species first). It could even be, that my brother who died, was me trying the first time, but had to experience early death. Who knows. But that is just life. The cycle of life and death. We (our bodies) all die, that is a fact.

My Master taught us "You are born, to not be born again"....meaning get Self-Realized in this life.

 

[Nimos]

I never think of Dinosaurs and definitely not that we come from the Dinosaur. Humans look more like monkeys. And when you see humans watch monkeys doing their monkey stuff, people really enjoy it. Maybe they feel related, still

It would have been awesome though... look at those mean ones

 

[SigurdReginson]

If people can just rely on common sense anyway, why does anyone need a holy book to tell them what they should do?

Seems like adding those negative things would just give some people a reason to act badly or mislead them into doing bad things. One need not look further than the Salem witch trials, the crusades, slavery, or any other terrible acts people used holy books to justify.

This is also something that can make a good man do bad things if he is convinced by the book or teaching that it is true and right.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If people can just rely on common sense anyway, why does anyone need a holy book to tell them what they should do?

It may be that common sense has a foundation outside of the human mind.

It may be, that the Holy Books are our guidance to what is common sense and at the same time we may not use it when we read that guidance.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

If people can just rely on common sense anyway, why does anyone need a holy book to tell them what they should do?

^^^ You said it.

It may be that common sense has a foundation outside of the human mind.
It may be, that the Holy Books are our guidance to what is common sense and at the same time we may not use it when we read that guidance.

Yeah, religions and books are part of the training for civilized social behavior, which is what religion and books are for. They are a social construct. God, soul, angels, satan, heaven, hell, judgement are all untruths; and prophets, sons, messengers, manifestations, mahdis are false, pretentious and sometimes outright evil.

 

[Milton Platt]

Another view on Bible violence (applies to any Scripture):

Hypothetical:
1) God exists and one goal of humans is to live a humane life
2) God is Loving, Just and Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient
3) God inspired to write the Scriptures (as an example I use the Bible)

In short:
* All our Scriptures contain quite some violence.
* I prefer the Truth, not the "Bible/Scriptural facts" without any common sense.

Fact: Nowadays people do these violent acts they "Bible-claim" God also did
No Fact: "Bible God's alleged violence" consists of raping children/women, murdering...
Assumption: From above I find it safe to assume people 2000 years ago also did violent acts

My idea:
IF true that people were violent ca. 2000 years ago
THEN a loving God will educate them to become less violent

* People rather not hear "You SHOULD" or having their faults pointed out by others.
* God being all knowing, uses non-literal stories in the Bible/Scriptures to teach us
* People will block and go into denial if others point out their violent acts and errors
* Ascribe these acts to God, using not too personal stories, makes them easier to digest
* For everything is the proper time; often it's best to have people figure it out themselves

The positive verses I see as the "to do" lessons
The negative verses I see as the "not to do" lessons
A very important lesson: Common Sense before Divine Sense

Evolution is all about learning/evolving. The world is like our university, in which professors don't spoon feed us, neither will the Divine Teacher, hence the Bible contains hints and not "ready to eat chunks" of information. This even gives more satisfaction...don't you think?

So the violent verses are educational and much needed to urge people to introspect; pos/neg are just part of life

In short:
People were the ones doing many of "God's alleged violent" acts, it need not have been God (as in "outside us") who did them

There are a lot of hypotheticals here, none of which are testable or falsifiable.
There are presuppositions in the choices that may not be valid.
There are choices that are not listed.
Is your god just or merciful? they are opposing things. Mercy requires the suspension of justness and visa versa.

This is all just your opinion.....virtually everybody has an opinion of the stories in the Bible. Why choose yours?

 

[YoursTrue]

Reading it in this way, is how the verses are most useful to me in this moment

Although I can see that believing the magic really happened can also be useful
And definitely I don't rule out that certain miracles and/or magic have occurred

I do remember that when I was reading about those miracles in the Scriptures
those really got me hooked into the Spiritual life, so in that way it was useful

Hi. Interesting comments you make. While I was driving today I noticed the beautiful blue sky and white clouds against it. (manner of speaking of course.) And I thought that God made these things beautiful for us because -- we think they're beautiful. And He made our eye to enjoy these things. But what about the animals? While they like certain foods and habitats over others, do they really wonder if God created these things? I don't think so, but then, although I enjoy seeing videos of animals, and I've had cats and birds and dogs, none of them ever spoke to me about how they felt when they see beautiful things.

 

[firedragon]

9. The Old Testament is mythology/legends.

This is what my priest told me about the Bible.

Legends does not make it Mythology.

Even if you dont have any regard to the Bible whatsoever, still its not called Mythology by any scholar who knows the subject well unless he falls into the category of mythicists. Even the skeptics call it "sacred history". Not Mythology.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

God did some but not all of these violent actions. Some were really human actions. Some was God blessing humans with safety and victory.

The Bible is mythology. But the word myth is an example of "you keep using that word." Myth can mean a lie or fable, but that wasn't its traditional meaning, which was closer to a sort of religious allegory.

 

[firedragon]

Another view on Bible violence (applies to any Scripture):

Hypothetical:
1) God exists and one goal of humans is to live a humane life
2) God is Loving, Just and Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient
3) God inspired to write the Scriptures (as an example I use the Bible)

In short:
* All our Scriptures contain quite some violence.
* I prefer the Truth, not the "Bible/Scriptural facts" without any common sense.

Fact: Nowadays people do these violent acts they "Bible-claim" God also did
No Fact: "Bible God's alleged violence" consists of raping children/women, murdering...
Assumption: From above I find it safe to assume people 2000 years ago also did violent acts

My idea:
IF true that people were violent ca. 2000 years ago
THEN a loving God will educate them to become less violent

* People rather not hear "You SHOULD" or having their faults pointed out by others.
* God being all knowing, uses non-literal stories in the Bible/Scriptures to teach us
* People will block and go into denial if others point out their violent acts and errors
* Ascribe these acts to God, using not too personal stories, makes them easier to digest
* For everything is the proper time; often it's best to have people figure it out themselves

The positive verses I see as the "to do" lessons
The negative verses I see as the "not to do" lessons
A very important lesson: Common Sense before Divine Sense

Evolution is all about learning/evolving. The world is like our university, in which professors don't spoon feed us, neither will the Divine Teacher, hence the Bible contains hints and not "ready to eat chunks" of information. This even gives more satisfaction...don't you think?

So the violent verses are educational and much needed to urge people to introspect; pos/neg are just part of life

In short:
People were the ones doing many of "God's alleged violent" acts, it need not have been God (as in "outside us") who did them

The question should be, did God command those violent acts!! Think of a verse that orders the killing of children, women, animals, infants etc etc just logically fit in with the characteristic of God. This is not the genre of history. It is written as sacred history. These verses are not depicting actual teachings of God but rather the sentiment of the writer where he or she is showing the animosity they had with these people, be it the Amalekites or anyone else. And the Bible is written as sacred history where ones opinion or allegiance to anything is written as a sacred story so it doesn't mean the story itself is absolutely historical but rather the depiction of the writers idea of truth. E.g. If I am the writer of a scripture in the Bible and I think you are a gentleman I would write it as a story where I witnessed you opening a door to a lady That doesn't mean I actually saw you or ever met you, but its showing the reader what I have been told as the truth, vis a vis, you are a gentleman.

Hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

God did some but not all of these violent actions. Some were really human actions. Some was God blessing humans with safety and victory.

The Bible is mythology. But the word myth is an example of "you keep using that word." Myth can mean a lie or fable, but that wasn't its traditional meaning, which was closer to a sort of religious allegory.

Hey. Thats surprisingly accurate and is exactly the view of liberal scholars and even some conservative scholars.

 

[Estro Felino]

Legends does not make it Mythology.

Even if you dont have any regard to the Bible whatsoever, still its not called Mythology by any scholar who knows the subject well unless he falls into the category of mythicists. Even the skeptics call it "sacred history". Not Mythology.

The first chapters of Genesis are copies of Mesopotamian books.

 

[stvdv]

If people can just rely on common sense anyway, why does anyone need a holy book to tell them what they should do?

Seems like adding those negative things would just give some people a reason to act badly or mislead them into doing bad things. One need not look further than the Salem witch trials, the crusades, slavery, or any other terrible acts people used holy books to justify.

This is also something that can make a good man do bad things if he is convinced by the book or teaching that it is true and right.

To dismiss Holy Books without knowing about it makes no sense either
Spiritual Scriptures explain about the highest potential one can reach

Hardly anyone gets to that. The Books were also for them
Most stay barbarian compared to that. They could use it

Of course if you can gain it without it, good for you
Reality is, that nobody gets there on its own

 

[firedragon]

The first chapters of Genesis are copies of Mesopotamian books.

How do you know it was a "copy"? See, parallelism doesn't mean they were definitely copied. It could also be there was a source both writers copied from.

Nevertheless, your statement is complementary to my statement you see? It is still sacred history, not mythology.

 

[stvdv]

There are a lot of hypotheticals here, none of which are testable or falsifiable.

So?

There are presuppositions in the choices that may not be valid.

Or may be

There are choices that are not listed.

You're joking, aren't you?

Is your god just or merciful? they are opposing things.

From your perspective obviously, not from mine

Mercy requires the suspension of justness and visa versa.

Only if you have attachment to "body identification" and it's ultimate goal of importance

This is all just your opinion

That is what I said

virtually everybody has an opinion of the stories in the Bible. Why choose yours?

I did not ask for that

Be creative yourself, and show what you have got

 

[Estro Felino]

How do you know it was a "copy"? See, parallelism doesn't mean they were definitely copied. It could also be there was a source both writers copied from.

Nevertheless, your statement is complementary to my statement you see? It is still sacred history, not mythology.

Besides, in the original Hebrew text it is evident that what is translated as God are many gods.
El Elyon, El Shaddai, Yahweh, Qemosh, Milcom are all gods. Elohim.

 

[stvdv]

Hi. Interesting comments you make.

And thank you for your positive reply

While I was driving today I noticed the beautiful blue sky and white clouds against it. (manner of speaking of course.)

They are like magic, or have the ability to create that feeling of awe and wonder. I was on the bicycle the other day and noticed it too

And I thought that God made these things beautiful for us because -- we think they're beautiful.

. Nice way of looking at at

And He made our eye to enjoy these things. But what about the animals?

Maybe not particular the sky and clouds, although they sense thunder and lightning far in advance (are more advanced in it than most humans, so they do seem to "see" it. And we have cats here who roll around on the ground when it is nice weather, just enjoying "rolling around"

While they like certain foods and habitats over others, do they really wonder if God created these things?

This I do not know for sure. Maybe that is one of the differences between human and animal, we can contemplate these things

I don't think so, but then, although I enjoy seeing videos of animals, and I've had cats and birds and dogs, none of them ever spoke to me about how they felt when they see beautiful things.

But they do "speak" to us when grateful, that is beautiful to see and a good virtue. But I don't think they experience beauty like humans do. Although the cats we have here seem to prefer the most beautiful butterflies to catch and play with and ....

So, they do seem to have quite a different perception than we have. More instinct based, less awe and wonder.

Like you I also enjoy animal videos, I have seen a few animal films in which animals rescue other animals, and I saw a huge chimpanzee stroking a cat. And like with humans, some have been traumatized and can't get over it, hence their behavior changes. Saints and Sages have been known to "talk" (communicate) with animals (I always liked the story of Saint Francis of Assisi for that)