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Featured Another view on Bible violence (applies to any Scripture)

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by stvdv, Sep 4, 2020.

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  1. 01: God did all the violent acts as described in the Bible

  2. 02: God did not do all the violent acts as described in the Bible

  3. 03: Humans did violent acts similar as described in the Bible

  4. 04: Humans did not do violent acts similar as described in the Bible

  5. 05: It makes sense that humans did some of these violent acts God allegedly did

  6. 06: It makes no sense that humans did some of these violent acts God allegedly did

  7. 07: I believe in "Common Sense before Divine Sense"

  8. 08: I believe not in "Common Sense before Divine Sense"

  9. 09: The old testament is about mythology

  10. 10: The Old Testament is not mythology

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Another view on Bible violence (applies to any Scripture):

    Hypothetical:
    1) God exists and one goal of humans is to live a humane life
    2) God is Loving, Just and Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient
    3) God inspired to write the Scriptures (as an example I use the Bible)

    In short:
    * All our Scriptures contain quite some violence.
    * I prefer the Truth, not the "Bible/Scriptural facts" without any common sense.

    Fact: Nowadays people do these violent acts they "Bible-claim" God also did
    No Fact: "Bible God's alleged violence" consists of raping children/women, murdering...
    Assumption: From above I find it safe to assume people 2000 years ago also did violent acts

    My idea:
    IF true that people were violent ca. 2000 years ago
    THEN a loving God will educate them to become less violent

    * People rather not hear "You SHOULD" or having their faults pointed out by others.
    * God being all knowing, uses non-literal stories in the Bible/Scriptures to teach us
    * People will block and go into denial if others point out their violent acts and errors
    * Ascribe these acts to God, using not too personal stories, makes them easier to digest
    * For everything is the proper time; often it's best to have people figure it out themselves

    The positive verses I see as the "to do" lessons
    The negative verses I see as the "not to do" lessons
    A very important lesson: Common Sense before Divine Sense

    Evolution is all about learning/evolving. The world is like our university, in which professors don't spoon feed us, neither will the Divine Teacher, hence the Bible contains hints and not "ready to eat chunks" of information. This even gives more satisfaction...don't you think?

    So the violent verses are educational and much needed to urge people to introspect; pos/neg are just part of life

    In short:
    People were the ones doing many of "God's alleged violent" acts, it need not have been God (as in "outside us") who did them
     
    #1 stvdv, Sep 4, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
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  2. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    9. The Old Testament is mythology/legends.

    This is what my priest told me about the Bible.
     
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  3. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Thank you for that. You were just in time, I could even add this one to the poll:D
    (big surprise I was able to add it to the poll; because nobody answered the poll yet)

    Any more?:D
     
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  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    3. Too
     
  5. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Too cryptic for me

    And I can not edit the ones that are already there
    I can only add new ones (until someone answers the poll)
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I didn't vote, but let me just say that I tend to drift in the direction that God's supposed role in a lot of things was probably put there later by authors. Thus, I treat all scriptures in all religions as being allegorical, and then contemplating what moral lessons may apply to current situations.
     
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  7. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    Reading it in this way, is how the verses are most useful to me in this moment

    Although I can see that believing the magic really happened can also be useful
    And definitely I don't rule out that certain miracles and/or magic have occurred

    I do remember that when I was reading about those miracles in the Scriptures
    those really got me hooked into the Spiritual life, so in that way it was useful
     
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  8. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    The Christian (traditional) teaching is that mankind is responsible for the violence due to his capacity to choose right from wrong. God doesn’t choose right or wrong for us, if believers sin, they need to own it. But there are passages that are challenging and can seem like God is violent and encourages violence, but I think what the Bible shows, is that mankind hasn’t changed much since then. Many people (today) commit violent crimes and want to blame others, even God.
     
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  9. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Lets try to play with this a bit :)

    So lets say that what you are saying is true, then you run into some issues. First of all you would have to accept one of the following conditions to be true:

    1. God doesn't exist and is purely made up.
    2. God does exist, but did not care about what these people did in his name. Which could suggest that God did not see anything wrong in a bit of raping and slaughtering of children etc. Which doesn't sound like an all loving God.

    Now obviously you could make more of these option, which would cast doubt on God as well, like maybe he exists, but weren't powerful enough to stop them and so forth.

    I honestly think, that the only way one can truly understand the meaning of the bible, is if one read it as an ancient jew. To really understand the message and meaning and why it would make sense to them, I think is sort of lost as so many people with various cultures and background, analyse it to death trying to make it fit their personal understanding of the world in which they live.

    But throwing that aside, I think the bible make rather good sense from the perspective of the ancient Jews.

    They were the chosen people, it was their God coming to save and defend them. So if their God want to kill or make them kill those people around them that have treated them bad, then that is justice from their perspective. These people had their own gods, which favorited them, so the Jews had theirs. And obviously a God need to be powerful, definitely not weaker than those around you, which is why God can easily out match the egyptian Gods and the rest.

    Furthermore it would be absurd to assume that the Jews lived under such unique customs, that most of what we find in the bible weren't also done in the lands around them, such as slavery, killing, children and women of the wrong religion and what other reason people might have had for killing each other.

    I think all this from the view of an ancient jew, would probably justify God's actions in their eyes and furthermore, I don't think they really even thought of the idea of questioning the power of God, after all he did "explain" all the things that didn't make sense to them. So obviously God must have been behind it.

    Also one have to remember that it is weren't like today, where you just go on the internet and read, fact check or speak with experts about these things. I mean hardly anyone could read or write at the required level.

    So now, when God doesn't only have to fit the Jews, but suddenly have to be good to all humans and what other things people have assigned to him, he just fall a bit flat, with the things he is suppose to be, as they don't really seem to add up, in that context.
     
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  10. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I see that viewpoint as something of a copout. Assume belief in god as the designer, many christians do. One cannot blame the designed for the faults of the designer. In this case an omni everything designer who in theory at least, should have known what he was doing. The bible states god created evil, which is a verse most christians tend to omit when absolving god of the bad bits
     
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  11. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    IF God exists AND is as powerful as assumed THEN there is no chance that you/humans understand all about God

    You miss the whole point. I started with a hypothesis that God exists and is loving and has the omnis

    God did create evolution. So that means people can grow or not, their choice.

    The point I made is, that it is a fact that humans commit those atrocities they say God did.
    Understandable, humans like to point fingers at others, even God, just to save their asses.

    This OP is not about, whether or not God exist. It's about whether or not it is logical, that people assume God committed all those atrocities (God as in outside us). I know that most people are not strong enough to man up and admit their mistakes and say sorry; they rather point fingers, even at God. So, those verses might be just that.

    Note: from Advaita view only God exists, so in that way the Bible is not even wrong in saying God did all (even if the actions were done by humans)
     
    #11 stvdv, Sep 4, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
  12. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg One Planet One People Please
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    Another view is that God created us to know and Love God and that requires a stage of conscious knowledge in a relative state of being.

    Thus God gave us the perfect creation and state of being to enable us to freely choose to achieve that aim.

    Regards Tony
     
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  13. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    So do you think an all knowing and all loving God would accept that? How is it loving, to let your "children" walk around in ignorance and all crazy, killing each other left right and centre? Which is basically what he is doing, right?
     
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  14. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    That was the point I made, that the creation is perfect, even the violent verses were needed at that time to educate them
    IF people say that the negative things are done by God, they block the opportunity to learn the lessons that could be learned
    (as is usually the case with people pointing fingers at others, they fail to do some introspection)

     
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  15. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    YES, that appears to be what "God" is doing

    And that is kind of a tough one to understand

    Divine University is not easy:D

    I have totally no problem that God created the world and gave us a free choice "to mess up". I have done lots of sports, and winning was only fun because "losing" was also an option. Same with the creation of God. God could have created humans like "stones", with very limited moves; not my choice
     
  16. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    When I see animals killing each other in a cruel way, I many times think "my God, why create such a cruel world". But if I don't agree with the "Game of Life", I always have the option to quit (stop eating/drinking). But so far, I still find life challenging enough not to end it here and now:D. That proves that God did not totally mess it up (I would have liked less killing, but what to do, I have to accept the cards given):)

    At least God did not put in the option that humans destroy the whole world (yet:D). And if they do, then the World will survive, humans might die. And then evolution starts all over again. Takes a few million years and new humans will emerge, and eventually do stupid things again. Thinking about it this way makes it look like a useless play.

    Fortunately the Sages and Saints prescribe methods that we can free ourselves from pain and sorrow
     
    #16 stvdv, Sep 4, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2020
  17. Deidre

    Deidre Follow thy heart

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    Christians aren’t bound by OT law, though.
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    :DI like that a lot. Play is always good. Especially if there are only winners:)

    I believe that the Bible is given to humanity; suitable for anyone who chooses the Bible
    Furthermore I think the Bible is a guidebook to teach us how to get to our goal in life.

    I agree that to understand the message and meaning is very diverse. Not all people are in the same "spiritual class room". Maybe some people try to make it fit their personal understanding. But humans evolve (as in evolution), so over time their personal understanding also grows:)

    I always thought that Jews questioned a lot. But maybe not about the power of God. I know too little about Jews to tell.:)

    Yes, good point. Most people just accepted what the priests were telling I think. We are really fortunate to have all information at hand. We have another challenge though ... fake information. Also not easy.

    Of course God does not only have to fit the Jews. That is easy to prove, as God also came to the Muslims, the Hindus, the Indians etc. Depending on their culture the Scriptures seem to be tailored.
     
  19. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

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    I believe that God loves us all. All humans are equal, not "some are more equal than others"
     
  20. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    Or he could have created a world where children don't die in childbirth, or get all kinds of weird and nasty disease.... yet he chose not to, because.... he is all there for us... or some of us and not really those that suffers.... but fair enough, what would life be if everyone had a good time, right?

    That is not really how evolution works... its not like the dinosaurs are in the process of throwing humans of the planet :)

    Dinosaurs went extinct about 65 million years ago (at the end of the Cretaceous Period), after living on Earth for about 165 million years.

    They lived here for quite a long time compared to how short a period of time we have been here.

    Yeah sure, except for those that die at an very early age, guess they will have to wait until we go extinct and new humans evolve for a second try? :D

    Well Islam developed much later than Judaism and Christianity, funny that God didn't reveal himself to everyone at the same time... it's almost like, it was spread and developed by humans :D
     
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