Another thought on seeking

[osgart]

I'd say if we knew something is a fact there wouldn't be a subjective/objective divide. If you really believe a said value defines who you are (a fixed value) it's no longer subjective (which is subject to change) but pretty fixed. Regardless if your conclusions came from inner experiences or from scientific, they would still make up a value that can't be changed. Therefore, if you find a religion that challenges that value, than unless that value isn't part of who you are (or you want to change your identity to adopt a new religion), that religion isn't a good path to follow.

I don't buy that everything subjective is subject to change. Inner experiences for me have constancy, and consistency. There are things that do change relying on the subjective, but not everything.

If a religion isn't true to who you are it most certainly isn't a good path to follow. I buy that.

As far as identity goes, people often can go through changes but there are things that never change about a person. Things like having a heart of cares, desires and emotions, a mind of thoughts, and a will about things, or to do or to just be.

For knowing, something either works or doesn't work. To know the truest nature of reality, I don't think we can. We all have stories to fill in the gaps. And perhaps one of those stories is most likely the one. But knowing things by method, experience and working at it is all we have to go on. Knowledge seems to adapt, grow, and develope.

Introspection and meditation is a way of knowing. Science is a way of knowing. Maybe there are other ways as well. I think subjectivity is a way of knowing self and a whole other side of reality.

I know I'll never be deterministic and non free will about nature. Experience overrides those perceptions. But to choose a religion, nobody sincerely chooses a religion without the certitude that it is the truth of things.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Before someone were to find religious practice, path, or practice, they need to know their deal breakers.
I.e. your deal breaker is something you know us true without question:

Belief can change. Faith can be broken. Knowledge is fixed.

Even knowledge is changeable. We will know more tomorrow than we know today (like that there are some kind of clouds and even spiders (probably dry ice which then sublimates on Mars, we did not know that previously). What I believe should be in line with the best guess in science today, that is the best that we can do. What do we know about tomorrow?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Everything I posted isn't based on our about religion. I don't have it.

I know (the first half), that's one reason why I asked.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Even knowledge is changeable. We will know more tomorrow than we know today (like that there are some kind of clouds and even spiders (probably dry ice which then sublimates) on Mars, we did not know that previously). What I believe should be in line with the best guess in science today, that is the best that we can do. What do we know about tomorrow?

Do you think seekers would find it just as hard to find a religion when things they know is true are not fixed either?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Do you think seekers would find it just as hard to find a religion when things they know is true are not fixed either?

We have to manage with that, otherwise we land in untruth and say 'Goddid it'. 'God of Gaps' is not the answer. What we believe should be closest to the best guess of the day and not something for which we cannot provide even a sliver of truth.

 

[Brian2]

That's more than one thought.

I feel "Knowledge is fixed" has gone round the block a few times on RF.

I would say knowledge can change. Knowledge can depend to a large extent on what we believe. It also can go the other way and what we know can determine our knowledge.
If we have the wrong knowledge because of wrong beliefs, or wrong beliefs because of wrong knowledge then that would seem to create a barrier between going from one set of beliefs and knowledge to another set that may conflict.

 

[Secret Chief]

I believe I'll dust my broom.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I believe there are differences between

1. I believe (accept X is true without evidence)

2. I have faith (hope/have trust that X is true, even though not 100% sure)

3. I know (be aware of through observation, inquiry, or information as a fact)

Before someone were to find religious practice, path, or practice, they need to know their deal breakers.

I.e. your deal breaker is something you know us true without question:

Giving charity is who I am
Expressing love defines me as a person
I cannot exist without freedom of expression
My identity is lost without knowing where I came from

and so forth.

If a religion or practice conflicts with your identity, there is a conflict and not a religion to adopt.

i.e. the Buddha's Dharma says we have no identity. All is a product of change. If you know you have an identity, the Dharma may conflict with your value.

Likewise, if having an origin or finding the source of all things and people is irrelevant, believing in a creator would not be an ideal path to look into.

You can believe you have a creator, but, we can accept anything is true when it may not be.

You can hope that a creator exists is true, but if someone challenges your experiences, you may have some dissonance and doubt.

If you know a creator exist, like two and two, it is a fact. You will not budge, no matter what.

Finding a religion should not conflict with what you "know" is true. Belief can change. Faith can be broken. Knowledge is fixed.

Enjoy

Right, so plant a religious seed and see if it grows.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Right, so plant a religious seed and see if it grows.

Huh?

 

[robocop (actually)]

Huh?

Please read Alma 32:26-43.

Alma 32

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please read Alma 32:26-43.

Alma 32

What am I looking for?

 

[robocop (actually)]

What am I looking for?

How to go from faith to knowledge.

 

[robocop (actually)]

What am I looking for?

*faith to belief to knowledge

 

[Unveiled Artist]

*faith to belief to knowledge

Faith breeds knowledge through humbleness?

 

[robocop (actually)]

Faith breeds knowledge through humbleness?

You are looking for verses 26-43.

 

[Trailblazer]

If we have the wrong knowledge because of wrong beliefs, or wrong beliefs because of wrong knowledge then that would seem to create a barrier between going from one set of beliefs and knowledge to another set that may conflict.

Truer words were never spoken.

 

[rational experiences]

Science never existed.

Creation plus self did.

If man never owned a machine to change form he would not believe in changing form. As all form is formed.

If you look back are you looking back? As you are not time shifting anything by digging up an item to look at.

You dug up an item.
You are looking at it

Then a thinker imposes a condition to what they study by their choice.

Choice. That's all there is to seeking. You want to. You want so already impose conditions. Human want is not any truth seeker.

 

[Bird123]

That would mean that we can challenge people's belief in god and regardless how much they know god exist, their beliefs can still change?

Edit. In other words, you can believe god exist (or truth exist or whatever the case may be for some people) 100% but because we can still discover a person's truth, then their discovery can change their conviction?

People's conviction can be 100% fixed in any religious belief or practice, but since knowledge isn't fixed (assumingly via your post?), how much are they taking for granted their practice or belief can change?

(Even though they may be strong willed that it won't, they don't consider it a fact)

Yes, there are many issues involved. There are many people who do not want to leave that box of beliefs regardless. Seeking Truth is not what they are about.

It's a mixed group. Some people live emotionally. They lead with feeling rather than reason. If they are comfortable with their feelings, they do not want to reason.

Still, we live in a world of the diversity of views. Everyone will move forward regardless of any beliefs even if it is ever so slowly.

My strength is reason, logic and math, however there are those who are good at reaching others emotionally. I knew a man who was the world's greatest salesman. He seemed to know how to reach them emotionally. When he reached them emotionally, their reason half took a back seat. He could sell anyone anything. Sadly, he is no longer alive. I learned a lot, however there was a lot more I could learn from him.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, there are many issues involved. There are many people who do not want to leave that box of beliefs regardless. Seeking Truth is not what they are about.

It's a mixed group. Some people live emotionally. They lead with feeling rather than reason. If they are comfortable with their feelings, they do not want to reason.

Some people find truth elsewhere that's just as valuable as someone else's truth.

Still, we live in a world of the diversity of views. Everyone will move forward regardless of any beliefs even if it is ever so slowly.

My strength is reason, logic and math, however there are those who are good at reaching others emotionally. I knew a man who was the world's greatest salesman. He seemed to know how to reach them emotionally. When he reached them emotionally, their reason half took a back seat. He could sell anyone anything. Sadly, he is no longer alive. I learned a lot, however there was a lot more I could learn from him.

Emotions are involved in a lot of decisions we make and our beliefs and so forth. That's just part of our human instinct-just the mind thinks to hard in interpreting and finding separation from this instinct rather than accept it and even learn from it. Almost as if emotions (and so forth) are a think to hide from because we are challenged with something we "think" threatens us but in actually, it does not.

As long as we don't say the other is lost for not finding our truth or are lost because they chose a different path, I think it's fine. Some people are more emotionally guided while others are not. Though, after awhile fast or slow, they'd still get to "their own" place rather than the same destination.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What am I looking for?

I've read/listened to the whole thing.
What exactly am I looking for? (What is the point you're making?)

I understand things when they are direct and/or have some support points I can follow.