Another Rant about Religion

[Glaurung]

Throughout my time on these boards I have posted from a (more or less) Catholic point of view. Nonetheless my actual real life commitment to the Catholic faith has varied greatly throughout the years. From periods of intense belief to periods of deep doubt. What I believe deep down is opaque even to myself. Frankly, I'm tired. Vatican shenanigans are starting to bore me. Religion is starting to bore me.

Since adolescence the fear of Hell has deeply impacted my mental world. I am meant to love God. But can I truly love a god who threatens me with eternal pain? Sometimes I wonder if early Christianity was but a misanthropic doomsday cult that got lucky. It has been two millennia and nothing has eventuated. If Christian faith is so necessary to please God and avoid Hell then its veracity should be far more obvious. The self denial Christianity demands would not be so bad if we had a sure basis for belief. To know for sure that a heavenly rewards awaits us.

This is not to say that I am drifting towards an atheistic position. On the contrary, I am reasonably confident that consciousness survives death. I am reasonably confident that some kind higher power exists. If anything I have become more hopeful about the truth of the above mentioned realities. But the claims and threats of institutional religion have become less credible to me because an utterly benevolent god who threatens his own creatures with eternal conscious torment makes no sense. Which is probably why the modern Church tends to speak from both sides of its mouth on this. Imagine the reaction if Bishop Barron had told Ben Shapiro that as per the teachings of the Council of Florence, all those who die outside the Catholic Church (including the Jews) go at once to the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Perhaps I just need to put religion on a backburner and go outside more. If Catholicism is indeed the truth then I will abandon all doubt and accept that reality. But God, grant me unambiguous sign of that truth. The modern Church does not fill me with confidence. On the other hand, if the Church's claims about itself are false then honestly I won't mourn that fact. If anything it would be a relief to learn that God is bigger than any earthly sect.

 

[Kenny]

Throughout my time on these boards I have posted from a (more or less) Catholic point of view. Nonetheless my actual real life commitment to the Catholic faith has varied greatly throughout the years. From periods of intense belief to periods of deep doubt. What I believe deep down is opaque even to myself. Frankly, I'm tired. Vatican shenanigans are starting to bore me. Religion is starting to bore me.

Since adolescence the fear of Hell has deeply impacted my mental world. I am meant to love God. But can I truly love a god who threatens me with eternal pain? Sometimes I wonder if early Christianity was but a misanthropic doomsday cult that got lucky. It has been two millennia and nothing has eventuated. If Christian faith is so necessary to please God and avoid Hell then its veracity should be far more obvious. The self denial Christianity demands would not be so bad if we had a sure basis for belief. To know for sure that a heavenly rewards awaits us.

This is not to say that I am drifting towards an atheistic position. On the contrary, I am reasonably confident that consciousness survives death. I am reasonably confident that some kind higher power exists. If anything I have become more hopeful about the truth of the above mentioned realities. But the claims and threats of institutional religion have become less credible to me because an utterly benevolent god who threatens his own creatures with eternal conscious torment makes no sense. Which is probably why the modern Church tends to speak from both sides of its mouth on this. Imagine the reaction if Bishop Barron had told Ben Shapiro that as per the teachings of the Council of Florence, all those who die outside the Catholic Church (including the Jews) go at once to the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Perhaps I just need to put religion on a backburner and go outside more. If Catholicism is indeed the truth then I will abandon all doubt and accept that reality. But God, grant me unambiguous sign of that truth. The modern Church does not fill me with confidence. On the other hand, if the Church's claims about itself are false then honestly I won't mourn that fact. If anything it would be a relief to learn that God is bigger than any earthly sect.

I'm not sure what the rules are for someone who posts on the "journaling" forum.

Moderators, can you help me?

Can you show me where in the bible Catholicism gets the position that if you are not in the Catholic denomination, you go to the eternal fire?

 

[Estro Felino]

I do understand your plight. I really do.
I don't know whether you were raised Catholic, or if you chose Catholicism as an adult. What I can say is that I identify as a non-denominational Christian but consider myself member of the RCC.
Which means that I don't consider the RCC the only true Church. I am nobody to say that this Church is better than the other one. I am enchanted by the Orthodox Churches. I consider all Churches beautiful in their own way.
The Vatican and the Pope are just 5% of what the Catholic Faith really is. Catholicism is made up of traditions, of the Virgin Mary, of the Marian dogmas, of the love of the saints and their example (they are models, they are not gods to worship).
I do understand that Catholics nowadays end up being disgusted by all that happens within the Vatican walls. You said that all those shenanigans bore you. I find them amusing, not boring. I am really entertained by the Vatican shenanigans because I see nothing but lust for power, Freemasons, lodges, paganism (Pachamama cult and other unmentionable stuff). That amuses me because that's not what Catholicism is.

What is Catholicism?
Yu should know that I attended a couple of parishes in Italy, as a child. And I have found priests that were examples of sainthood. They used to live in a superior dimension, it's like they would walk a foot off the ground.
When I used to listen to them or perceive their presence, I felt like I was in another dimension. A heavenly dimension. I can say their names. Padre Pietro and Padre Enzo. The latter was a Franciscan friar. Their examples, their teachings made me see what Catholicism really is. And they never spoke of the Vatican. Not even once.
What can I say? Listen to your heart, and look for Jesus in your heart. You can love Jesus, regardless of the Church you belong to.

 

[exchemist]

I'm not sure what the rules are for someone who posts on the "journaling" forum.

Moderators, can you help me?

Can you show me where Catholicism gets the position that if you are not in the Catholic denomination, you go to the eternal fire?

The Council of Florence was in the c.15th. Church teaching has evolved since then.

 

[exchemist]

Throughout my time on these boards I have posted from a (more or less) Catholic point of view. Nonetheless my actual real life commitment to the Catholic faith has varied greatly throughout the years. From periods of intense belief to periods of deep doubt. What I believe deep down is opaque even to myself. Frankly, I'm tired. Vatican shenanigans are starting to bore me. Religion is starting to bore me.

Since adolescence the fear of Hell has deeply impacted my mental world. I am meant to love God. But can I truly love a god who threatens me with eternal pain? Sometimes I wonder if early Christianity was but a misanthropic doomsday cult that got lucky. It has been two millennia and nothing has eventuated. If Christian faith is so necessary to please God and avoid Hell then its veracity should be far more obvious. The self denial Christianity demands would not be so bad if we had a sure basis for belief. To know for sure that a heavenly rewards awaits us.

This is not to say that I am drifting towards an atheistic position. On the contrary, I am reasonably confident that consciousness survives death. I am reasonably confident that some kind higher power exists. If anything I have become more hopeful about the truth of the above mentioned realities. But the claims and threats of institutional religion have become less credible to me because an utterly benevolent god who threatens his own creatures with eternal conscious torment makes no sense. Which is probably why the modern Church tends to speak from both sides of its mouth on this. Imagine the reaction if Bishop Barron had told Ben Shapiro that as per the teachings of the Council of Florence, all those who die outside the Catholic Church (including the Jews) go at once to the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Perhaps I just need to put religion on a backburner and go outside more. If Catholicism is indeed the truth then I will abandon all doubt and accept that reality. But God, grant me unambiguous sign of that truth. The modern Church does not fill me with confidence. On the other hand, if the Church's claims about itself are false then honestly I won't mourn that fact. If anything it would be a relief to learn that God is bigger than any earthly sect.

Doubt is pretty normal. Going outside more is good, too, obviously. If you have a good parish priest, whose opinions you can take seriously (with some you just can't, frankly), you could possibly have a talk with him.

But your understanding of these matters seems rather rigid and, dare I say it, a little out of date. As far as I know, the modern understanding of Hell is that it may be a self-imposed state, resulting from an evil person being finally confronted with God and being unable to handle the wrenching shock. Furthermore, part of the appeal of the doctrine of Purgatory is that many, perhaps most, or even possibly all, sinners may be ultimately purified and not end up in Hell. The threat of hellfire has never been prominent at all in my 60+ years of contact with the Catholic faith.

What is I think now indisputable is that the Catholic church is and always has been a very fallible human institution, with a very imperfect priesthood. Relying on rigid doctrine and rules laid down by such people must be a mistake, it seems to me. I think the road to sanity and healthy religion must be to flex a bit and accept there are shades of doubt and shades of grey, as we do in other aspects of life, and test everything by whether or not it seems to us reasonable, rather than adopting a posture of unquestioning obedience. We can do this perfectly well without abandoning the whole thing.

As a chemist, I am used to working with multiple, imperfect models of nature. Their lack of perfection does not make them useless: far from it. The older I get, the more profound I realise this training has been in shaping my view on life.

 

[PureX]

Throughout my time on these boards I have posted from a (more or less) Catholic point of view. Nonetheless my actual real life commitment to the Catholic faith has varied greatly throughout the years. From periods of intense belief to periods of deep doubt. What I believe deep down is opaque even to myself. Frankly, I'm tired. Vatican shenanigans are starting to bore me. Religion is starting to bore me.

Since adolescence the fear of Hell has deeply impacted my mental world. I am meant to love God. But can I truly love a god who threatens me with eternal pain? Sometimes I wonder if early Christianity was but a misanthropic doomsday cult that got lucky. It has been two millennia and nothing has eventuated. If Christian faith is so necessary to please God and avoid Hell then its veracity should be far more obvious. The self denial Christianity demands would not be so bad if we had a sure basis for belief. To know for sure that a heavenly rewards awaits us.

This is not to say that I am drifting towards an atheistic position. On the contrary, I am reasonably confident that consciousness survives death. I am reasonably confident that some kind higher power exists. If anything I have become more hopeful about the truth of the above mentioned realities. But the claims and threats of institutional religion have become less credible to me because an utterly benevolent god who threatens his own creatures with eternal conscious torment makes no sense. Which is probably why the modern Church tends to speak from both sides of its mouth on this. Imagine the reaction if Bishop Barron had told Ben Shapiro that as per the teachings of the Council of Florence, all those who die outside the Catholic Church (including the Jews) go at once to the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Perhaps I just need to put religion on a backburner and go outside more. If Catholicism is indeed the truth then I will abandon all doubt and accept that reality. But God, grant me unambiguous sign of that truth. The modern Church does not fill me with confidence. On the other hand, if the Church's claims about itself are false then honestly I won't mourn that fact. If anything it would be a relief to learn that God is bigger than any earthly sect.

You know, you don't have to "believe" anything. You can simply choose to trust in your best ideals, act on them as best you can, and see what comes of it. If doing that brings you and others good results, keep doing it.

I find that love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity are very good ideals to try and live by. We consider them "divine ideals" because they are healing for anyone that experiences them. Are they from "God"? Who knows. Not me. But it makes no difference. They work when I choose to act on them, regardless. So I continue to try and act on them. To trust in them. "Belief" isn't necessary. All it takes is a little trust in action ... faith.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

…/can I truly love a god who threatens me with eternal pain?

I would say that it is never God who “threatens” us. It is ourselves; by how we treat those we encounter throughout our worldly lives.

All our contributions (good and bad) to the situations we play part in, are what shape our experience of being - both in our everyday life and in spirit.

We are not “whipped” or “burned” in a strange “place” called “hell” - those are worldly terms for experiences in spiritual states of being.

Upon death, we are given the chance to experience that which we caused others to experience during life. Be that suffering or grace; the state itself is a blessed opportunity to understand what it was that we were part of.

Humbly,
Hermit

 

[Kenny]

The Council of Florence was in the c.15th. Church teaching has evolved since then.

Yes, that part I understand.

My wife and I were faithful attenders at Catholic Mass for 7 years and it wasn't customary to really open the Bible extensively as an attender (my wife was Catholic from her family and I wasn't anything other than an attender)

In that we didn't read the Bible, but now I do, I was asking @Musing Bassist if he new of scripture that said everybody outside of the Catholic denomination was going to eternal fire.

 

[exchemist]

Yes, that part I understand.

My wife and I were faithful attenders at Catholic Mass for 7 years and it wasn't customary to really open the Bible extensively as an attender (my wife was Catholic from her family and I wasn't anything other than an attender)

In that we didn't read the Bible, but now I do, I was asking @Musing Bassist if he new of scripture that said everybody outside of the Catholic denomination was going to eternal fire.

Ah OK, you didn't mention scripture though, whereas he did refer to the Council of Florence, so this put me on the wrong track.

 

[Kenny]

Ah OK, you didn't mention scripture though, whereas he did refer to the Council of Florence, so this put me on the wrong track.

you are right... my error. Will edit for better understanding

 

[Kenny]

I do understand your plight. I really do.
I don't know whether you were raised Catholic, or if you chose Catholicism as an adult. What I can say is that I identify as a non-denominational Christian but consider myself member of the RCC.
Which means that I don't consider the RCC the only true Church. I am nobody to say that this Church is better than the other one. I am enchanted by the Orthodox Churches. I consider all Churches beautiful in their own way.
The Vatican and the Pope are just 5% of what the Catholic Faith really is. Catholicism is made up of traditions, of the Virgin Mary, of the Marian dogmas, of the love of the saints and their example (they are models, they are not gods to worship).
I do understand that Catholics nowadays end up being disgusted by all that happens within the Vatican walls. You said that all those shenanigans bore you. I find them amusing, not boring. I am really entertained by the Vatican shenanigans because I see nothing but lust for power, Freemasons, lodges, paganism (Pachamama cult and other unmentionable stuff). That amuses me because that's not what Catholicism is.

What is Catholicism?
Yu should know that I attended a couple of parishes in Italy, as a child. And I have found priests that were examples of sainthood. They used to live in a superior dimension, it's like they would walk a foot off the ground.
When I used to listen to them or perceive their presence, I felt like I was in another dimension. A heavenly dimension. I can say their names. Padre Pietro and Padre Enzo. The latter was a Franciscan friar. Their examples, their teachings made me see what Catholicism really is. And they never spoke of the Vatican. Not even once.
What can I say? Listen to your heart, and look for Jesus in your heart. You can love Jesus, regardless of the Church you belong to.

When I was in 6th grade, I was interned with my brothers at El Escorial, outside of Madrid, Spain.

The Mass was in Latin so we didn't get one drop of understanding. However, there ws one priest whose face shone with the light of love. He later had the desire of his heart which was to go to Africa to touch lives.

I now walk under the banner of "Non-denominational Christian" - but WOW! have I heard some amazing messages from priests!

 

[pearl]

If anything it would be a relief to learn that God is bigger than any earthly sect.

Then you ought to be relieved. That also the Church is greater than the hierarchy.

 

[King Phenomenon]

Sounds like you've let books guide you rather than you're own thoughts about reality.

 

[nPeace]

Throughout my time on these boards I have posted from a (more or less) Catholic point of view. Nonetheless my actual real life commitment to the Catholic faith has varied greatly throughout the years. From periods of intense belief to periods of deep doubt. What I believe deep down is opaque even to myself. Frankly, I'm tired. Vatican shenanigans are starting to bore me. Religion is starting to bore me.

Since adolescence the fear of Hell has deeply impacted my mental world. I am meant to love God. But can I truly love a god who threatens me with eternal pain? Sometimes I wonder if early Christianity was but a misanthropic doomsday cult that got lucky. It has been two millennia and nothing has eventuated. If Christian faith is so necessary to please God and avoid Hell then its veracity should be far more obvious. The self denial Christianity demands would not be so bad if we had a sure basis for belief. To know for sure that a heavenly rewards awaits us.

This is not to say that I am drifting towards an atheistic position. On the contrary, I am reasonably confident that consciousness survives death. I am reasonably confident that some kind higher power exists. If anything I have become more hopeful about the truth of the above mentioned realities. But the claims and threats of institutional religion have become less credible to me because an utterly benevolent god who threatens his own creatures with eternal conscious torment makes no sense. Which is probably why the modern Church tends to speak from both sides of its mouth on this. Imagine the reaction if Bishop Barron had told Ben Shapiro that as per the teachings of the Council of Florence, all those who die outside the Catholic Church (including the Jews) go at once to the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Perhaps I just need to put religion on a backburner and go outside more. If Catholicism is indeed the truth then I will abandon all doubt and accept that reality. But God, grant me unambiguous sign of that truth. The modern Church does not fill me with confidence. On the other hand, if the Church's claims about itself are false then honestly I won't mourn that fact. If anything it would be a relief to learn that God is bigger than any earthly sect.

You are not alone. Billions feel the same way.
Actually, millions today who once were tormented and disturbed at such a teaching are helping thousands to see for themselves, that there is no such place as eternal hell, where the wicked are forever tormented.

One scripture they use to help people see that God would never even give thought to such a thing, is Jeremiah 19:5

 

[nPeace]

Sounds like you've let books guide you rather than you're own thoughts about reality.

That sounds dangerous... letting your own thoughts guide you, I mean.

 

[Left Coast]

I'm not sure what the rules are for someone who posts on the "journaling" forum.

Moderators, can you help me?

It's not a debate forum, if that's what you're asking.

 

[nPeace]

You know, you don't have to "believe" anything. You can simply choose to trust in your best ideals, act on them as best you can, and see what comes of it. If doing that brings you and others good results, keep doing it.

I find that love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity are very good ideals to try and live by. We consider them "divine ideals" because they are healing for anyone that experiences them. Are they from "God"? Who knows. Not me. But it makes no difference. They work when I choose to act on them, regardless. So I continue to try and act on them. To trust in them. "Belief" isn't necessary. All it takes is a little trust in action ... faith.

After seeing the mod's post, I deleted my response, but I really want to respond to this, so please see my post here... if you are interested in responding.

 

[Heyo]

Which is probably why the modern Church tends to speak from both sides of its mouth on this.

The modern church? The contradictions start in the first chapter of the book.
Not everybody sees the contradictions but in those who do, it causes cognitive dissonance.
How many different, independent things do you believe? How many of them are contradictory? Get rid of the contradictions and 90% of your believes can stay intact without causing you discomfort.

 

[metis]

Can you show me where in the bible Catholicism gets the position that if you are not in the Catholic denomination, you go to the eternal fire?

Very often when at mass we are warned not to judge others as that's God's domain, not ours. I remember one of our priests saying that if one wants to look around and see all the "hypocrites" in the congregation, bring a mirror next time.

 

[Lekatt]

If you go to church out of fear of hell as I did for years you are wasting your time. You have missed the point. Religion is man-made by church leaders over hundreds of years. It is designed to keep you going to church and supporting the religion.

Spirituality is understanding you are spirit that survives physical life. If you wish to feel the love of a higher power then practice the teachings of Jesus.

That will show you a path to love and understanding far beyond this world.

You will learn the answers to all your questions. But it is necessary to follow the teachings. He knew what He was talking about and phrases like "the Kingdom of Heaven is within you" will have meaning and you will feel the love and truth in life.