Another OP about the self

[Spirit of Light]

So, then, what is your proof for Allah and his messengers?

Honestly, I do not have that kind of proof yet as many atheists asking for, So for me, yes I have my belief and the personal "proof" that I see in my personal life every day. But no I can not give you physical proof of Allah, except for saying that Allah exists in everything around us (this is often where atheists say it is no proof)
About the messenger Muhammad, we have to look at the history and the scripture (but again, I do not think most atheists see it as proof they looking for.)
Can I blame the Atheists for not believing the way I do? Of course not, I do not think that is something anyone should do.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, there you are.

 

[firedragon]

Since there is multiple OP about self, I found it interesting to put it out there, the understanding of self seen from a Sufis P.O.V (of course you are allowed to disagree with these views

The concept in Sufism of the ego (the self or the nafs). The ego is a part of our psyche that consistently leads us off the spiritual path, a part of the self which commands us to do evil. ... The ultimate state of happiness for a Sufi is the annihilation of the individual self.
It means that even there are individual humans we are inter-connected in some form, so what many call self is not something actually real (not that I understand it fully yet)

In all the vorld views that exist the way Sufis understand it is of course not the only way that humans will understand the self, And I am not here to convince you that Sufis are the only one correct

Have you, yourself thought of what self actually is?
Are self and ego the same?
Are humans inter-connected in some way?

Nafs is not necessarily translated as 'ego'. In colloquial terms Nafs is self or the "inside". As in psychology would be "ilm in nafs" which would directly mean "the knowledge of the inside of ourselves", vis a vis, psychology. Dabt in nafs would be control of ones self, vis a vis, self control.

In Islamic philosophy nafs means that baser soul. This would mean that without moulding or some kind of motivation and/or training, the nafs can lead man to do wrong. That would make it the carnal soul, more than the ego. Its a little deeper than that.

The Quran in chapter basically begins with "zalikal kithaaba la raiba feehi hudhallil muttaqeen" which in simple terms would mean "this book, no doubt, is a guidance, for the righteous". It doesnt say muslim, it doesnt say christian, it doesnt say Arab, black, white, tall, rich, poor or anything of the sort. It says "righteous".

This righteous though has a deeper meaning when considering the word Muttaqeen stemming from "Taqwa". It means that inner self of yours that tells you not to do bad things. That inside of you that hurts your feelings when you even consider something bad. Like hurting someone for no reason. Or stealing something just because its right there. This is how the Qur'an practically begins. Thus the Quranic discourse is the grooming of the nafs, beginning with Taqwa. That is if you take the book as the context of its own. If you cherry pick, that's a whole different story because you will never put two and two together to make four but have two sets of two's which should typically be put together. One book, single author.

This is the concept of self in simple Islamic text. No philosophy or complicated thought put into it. Just plain, simple reading of the Qur'an.

Peace.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Nafs is not necessarily translated as 'ego'. In colloquial terms Nafs is self or the "inside". As in psychology would be "ilm in nafs" which would directly mean "the knowledge of the inside of ourselves", vis a vis, psychology. Dabt in nafs would be control of ones self, vis a vis, self control.

In Islamic philosophy nafs means that baser soul. This would mean that without moulding or some kind of motivation and/or training, the nafs can lead man to do wrong. That would make it the carnal soul, more than the ego. Its a little deeper than that.

The Quran in chapter basically begins with "zalikal kithaaba la raiba feehi hudhallil muttaqeen" which in simple terms would mean "this book, no doubt, is a guidance, for the righteous". It doesnt say muslim, it doesnt say christian, it doesnt say Arab, black, white, tall, rich, poor or anything of the sort. It says "righteous".

This righteous though has a deeper meaning when considering the word Muttaqeen stemming from "Taqwa". It means that inner self of yours that tells you not to do bad things. That inside of you that hurts your feelings when you even consider something bad. Like hurting someone for no reason. Or stealing something just because its right there. This is how the Qur'an practically begins. Thus the Quranic discourse is the grooming of the nafs, beginning with Taqwa. That is if you take the book as the context of its own. If you cherry pick, that's a whole different story because you will never put two and two together to make four but have two sets of two's which should typically be put together. One book, single author.

This is the concept of self in simple Islamic text. No philosophy or complicated thought put into it. Just plain, simple reading of the Qur'an.

Peace.

Strange..I do not disagree with you at all
Since I still do not read or speak Arabic in the way you do, yes my understanding of the very deep sense of the quranic teaching still has a lot to be improved upon, no doubt about that.
As a Sufi there are different understandings of the Quran and its teaching too, I have heard very different understandings/interpretations of it. But I am in this life to learn
As a Sufi, there are also other texts written that I read and from all the scriptures I would have to realize my own inner path, which will differ somewhat from what others' understanding may be.
But I am open to learning and listen to those who understand more than me, (something i was poor at before)

 

[The Crimson Universe]

The concept in Sufism of the ego (the self or the nafs). The ego is a part of our psyche that consistently leads us off the spiritual path, a part of the self which commands us to do evil. ... The ultimate state of happiness for a Sufi is the annihilation of the individual self.

The non-dualist Hindus, holds the same belief, that the ego is kinda evil. It makes us take wrong decisions. This ego is part of the psyche/subtle body.

This subtle body AKA mental body is basically the whole psychological process and its made up of -
1. Manas (active mind)
2. Buddhi (intellect),
3. Chitta (subconscious mind),
4. Ahamkara (ego)

It means that even there are individual humans we are inter-connected in some form

As per the non-dualist hindus, we are all inter-connected by an infinite spirit or consciousness called Brahman.

Have you, yourself thought of what self actually is?
Are self and ego the same?
Are humans inter-connected in some way?

Since i'm a follower of non-dualistic / monistic Hinduism, i'll speak from that P.O.V.

We believe there are three types of selves.

1. The lower self (which is the physical body made of flesh and bones.)
Do note, it is just a vessel and not the real us.

2. The inner self (is the subtle body AKA mental body AKA psyche) and it contains the ego. The non-dualist hindus also call this body the 'soul'. And this subtle body or soul transmigrates/reincarnates.
Do note, this body too is just a vessel and not the real us.

3. THE HIGHER SELF.
We call IT Brahman / Universal Spirit / Universal Consciousness.
... This is what we truly are.
... We are Spirit in our true, original state.
... Do Note: The Spirit and soul are different as per Hinduism.
... The Spirit as i said before is infinite like the vast cosmos. And there is only one Spirit in all existence which manifests as stars, planets, galaxies, subtle bodies, physical bodies etc.
... So, when this infinite Spirit manifests into matter (into innumerable subtle and physical bodies, which are nothing but vessels) there comes into existence all sorts of individualities.
... The moment we drop all the vessels upon attaining liberation / nirvana / moksha, we again return to our original infinite Spirit state.

This is what I've learned in the past 3 years. Thanks to the members on RF.

 

[firedragon]

Strange..I do not disagree with you at all
Since I still do not read or speak Arabic in the way you do, yes my understanding of the very deep sense of the quranic teaching still has a lot to be improved upon, no doubt about that.
As a Sufi there are different understandings of the Quran and its teaching too, I have heard very different understandings/interpretations of it. But I am in this life to learn
As a Sufi, there are also other texts written that I read and from all the scriptures I would have to realize my own inner path, which will differ somewhat from what others' understanding may be.
But I am open to learning and listen to those who understand more than me, (something i was poor at before)

I am not well read on the Sufi writings. I have read some of the old writings of philosophers like Ibn Arabi and Al Ghazzali. From modern day works maybe two authors. If I remember correctly burckardt and Idris. So honestly I am yet to learn much. One of the most fascinating understandings of the Quran was with Ibn Arabi. It is mindblowing. He even had a Tafsir and I have it. Of course I consider his rendering extremely mystical, but some things he says are just mind-blowing.

He says "Adam is the the first mother".

 

[firedragon]

The non-dualist Hindus, holds the same belief, that the ego is kinda evil. It makes us take wrong decisions. This ego is part of the psyche/subtle body.

This subtle body AKA mental body is basically the whole psychological process and its made up of -
1. Manas (active mind)
2. Buddhi (intellect),
3. Chitta (subconscious mind),
4. Ahamkara (ego)



As per the non-dualist hindus, we are all inter-connected by an infinite spirit or consciousness called Brahman.



Since i'm a follower of non-dualistic / monistic Hinduism, i'll speak from that P.O.V.

We believe there are three types of selves.

1. The lower self (which is the physical body made of flesh and bones.)
Do note, it is just a vessel and not the real us.

2. The inner self (is the subtle body AKA mental body AKA psyche) and it contains the ego. The non-dualist hindus also call this body the 'soul'. And this subtle body or soul transmigrates/reincarnates.
Do note, this body too is just a vessel and not the real us.

3. THE HIGHER SELF.
We call IT Brahman / Universal Spirit / Universal Consciousness.
... This is what we truly are.
... We are Spirit in our true, original state.
... Do Note: The Spirit and soul are different as per Hinduism.
... The Spirit as i said before is infinite like the vast cosmos. And there is only one Spirit in all existence which manifests as stars, planets, galaxies, subtle bodies, physical bodies etc.
... So, when this infinite Spirit manifests into matter (into innumerable subtle and physical bodies, which are nothing but vessels) there comes into existence all sorts of individualities.
... The moment we drop all the vessels upon attaining liberation / nirvana / moksha, we again return to our original infinite Spirit state.

This is what I've learned in the past 3 years. Thanks to the members on RF.

Very nice.

 

[Fool]

Since there is multiple OP about self, I found it interesting to put it out there, the understanding of self seen from a Sufis P.O.V (of course you are allowed to disagree with these views

The concept in Sufism of the ego (the self or the nafs). The ego is a part of our psyche that consistently leads us off the spiritual path, a part of the self which commands us to do evil. ... The ultimate state of happiness for a Sufi is the annihilation of the individual self.
It means that even there are individual humans we are inter-connected in some form, so what many call self is not something actually real (not that I understand it fully yet)

In all the vorld views that exist the way Sufis understand it is of course not the only way that humans will understand the self, And I am not here to convince you that Sufis are the only one correct

selfness is accomplished through altruism, love and compassion for those in need and meditation.

a person in need can't be of service to others; when it is in need itself.

focusing on the personal ego vs focusing on the cessation of suffering. fascination with the personal ego is exactly what the ego wants.

Have you, yourself thought of what self actually is?

there is only the impermanent, supreme self. the personal self is temporal. the form is constantly changing in the current personal self. this is self evident.

Are self and ego the same?

an open, infinite mind doesn't have the need to portray an image. it just is. the ego wants to portray an image. let's talk about me, me, me, me.

Are humans inter-connected in some way?

through consciousness

Brains Might Sync As People Interact — and That Could Upend Consciousness Research
“Hyperscans” Show How Brains Sync as People Interact
Brain-to-Brain Synchrony during Naturalistic Social Interactions | Scientific Reports

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Have you, yourself thought of what self actually is?

Yes. I'm in the middle of transformative self or fixed self.

Is there an I that's experiencing said events or is there no I just an illusion despite the change in self? I don't know. I haven't really pondered on it longer than a couple of minutes.

Are self and ego the same?

No. I see self as identity-whether transforming or fixed, I don't know. I see and experience evidence both ways.

Are humans inter-connected in some way?

I've never been a universalist, but as social animals yes, we are. I guess I see the interconnection more evolutionary. Spiritually, though, I like diversity and uniqueness. Relationship rather than unity.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Since there is multiple OP about self, I found it interesting to put it out there, the understanding of self seen from a Sufis P.O.V (of course you are allowed to disagree with these views

The concept in Sufism of the ego (the self or the nafs). The ego is a part of our psyche that consistently leads us off the spiritual path, a part of the self which commands us to do evil. ... The ultimate state of happiness for a Sufi is the annihilation of the individual self.
It means that even there are individual humans we are inter-connected in some form, so what many call self is not something actually real (not that I understand it fully yet)

In all the vorld views that exist the way Sufis understand it is of course not the only way that humans will understand the self, And I am not here to convince you that Sufis are the only one correct

Have you, yourself thought of what self actually is?
Are self and ego the same?
Are humans inter-connected in some way?

Here is my understanding.

Divine spirit incarnates as soul which in turn vivifies the physical body, creates emotions and creates the ego mind. Man then becomes an expression of God that experiences physical, emotional, and mental reality. As time passes after birth, the ego mind self identifies itself with the body, rather than the soul of which it is the expression. It no longer knows itself as an expression of spirit, now it sees itself as a physical human experiencing life. The human being has a name to which it answers, much like Fido the dog answers to the call of "Fido!"
The religious path is to reverse this process, the soul must learn to 'look' in the direction of the source, instead of outwards into the world. When the soul focuses its awareness on the source, the ego mind is no longer active and through extensive practice eventually the self identity transitions from the physical body to the spirit illuminating the soul. Feelings the likes of "The Father and I are one", "I am", etc.., may be experienced, but so long as the ego mind believes itself to be enlightened, the mission is far from being accomplished.
However this situation is a temporary win win for both spiritual evolution and physical creation, for this practice 'strengthens' the soul such that when it turns its awareness back to expressing through the body and ego mind, it is enhanced compared to before, and high creativity ensues. But eventually the practice will bring about full union with the universal spirit and the spirit departs permanently from incarnation...mission accomplished.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Since there is multiple OP about self, I found it interesting to put it out there, the understanding of self seen from a Sufis P.O.V (of course you are allowed to disagree with these views

The concept in Sufism of the ego (the self or the nafs). The ego is a part of our psyche that consistently leads us off the spiritual path, a part of the self which commands us to do evil. ... The ultimate state of happiness for a Sufi is the annihilation of the individual self.
It means that even there are individual humans we are inter-connected in some form, so what many call self is not something actually real (not that I understand it fully yet)

In all the vorld views that exist the way Sufis understand it is of course not the only way that humans will understand the self, And I am not here to convince you that Sufis are the only one correct

Have you, yourself thought of what self actually is?
Are self and ego the same?
Are humans inter-connected in some way?

Interconnected means the real self includes everything everywhere, in addition to the form that people call 'self'.

The real 'you'.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Interconnected means the real self includes everything everywhere, in addition to the form that people call 'self'.

The real 'you'.

Personally I do not see the body as the "real" me