Another one of them proofs for God.

[Link]

So unlike Neo who said "we going to need guns, lots and lots of Guns", I went the approach "we going to need proofs, lots and lots of proofs" - *smiles*

I posted this in another thread, and thought it would be worth a discussion.

Morality and Logic is a Necessary truth.
Morality and Logic requires perception.
A Necessary Perception exists.

A Necessary being is Absolute in Life.
A Necessary Perception of all levels of necessary morality is only possible by a Necessary being.

Now what is clear is that all levels of morality ASCEND in the perception of God all the way up to God (Absolute Morality).

While evil being descending can only be low, rebellious or acts of weakness and hence cannot be absolute in nature.

This proof of course not only shows how we know God is Good, but also proves and reminds of God's existence with respect to the nature of morality and logic.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So unlike Neo who said "we going to need guns, lots and lots of Guns", I went the approach "we going to need proofs, lots and lots of proofs" - *smiles*

I posted this in another thread, and thought it would be worth a discussion.

Morality and Logic is a Necessary truth.
Morality and Logic requires perception.
A Necessary Perception exists.

A Necessary being is Absolute in Life.
A Necessary Perception of all levels of necessary morality is only possible by a Necessary being.

Now what is clear is that all levels of morality ASCEND in the perception of God all the way up to God (Absolute Morality).

While evil being descending can only be low, rebellious or acts of weakness and hence cannot be absolute in nature.

This proof of course not only shows how we know God is Good, but also proves and reminds of God's existence with respect to the nature of morality and logic.

Morality and logic exist therefore god does as a source or embodiment of it?

 

[Link]

Morality and logic exist therefore god does as a source or embodiment of it?

Yeah sure.

 

[Link]

Morality and Logic is a Necessary truth.
Morality and Logic requires perception.
Therefore A Necessary Perception exists.

A Necessary being is Absolute in Life.
A Necessary Perception of all levels of necessary morality is only possible by a Necessary being.
Goodness is ascending (positive real life) while evil is descending (negative away from life).

Therefore an Absolute Good Necessary being exists.

 

[ratiocinator]

Morality and Logic is a Necessary truth.

Where is the reasoning that morality is at all necessary, or anything other than a construct of humans and their societies?

As for logic, if you mean logical self-consistency, then it's possibly necessary in the sense that it would be needed for any sort of ordered existence, and hence beings who can perceive, but if you mean the process of thinking logically, then, again, where is the reasoning that it is necessary?

Morality and Logic requires perception.

Morality appears to be entirely invented, so yeah, it requires perception before it can exist and it simply didn't exist before it was invented. For logic, see above.

A Necessary Perception exists.

Doesn't follow at all.

A Necessary being is Absolute in Life.
A Necessary Perception of all levels of necessary morality is only possible by a Necessary being.

Now you're off in a world of your own. You need to define your terms. However, since nothing up to this point has been logically sound, it probably doesn't make much difference...

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yeah sure.

What are you trying to say?

 

[Link]

What are you trying to say?

What you said works.

 

[Twilight Hue]

So unlike Neo who said "we going to need guns, lots and lots of Guns", I went the approach "we going to need proofs, lots and lots of proofs" - *smiles*

I posted this in another thread, and thought it would be worth a discussion.

Morality and Logic is a Necessary truth.
Morality and Logic requires perception.
A Necessary Perception exists.

A Necessary being is Absolute in Life.
A Necessary Perception of all levels of necessary morality is only possible by a Necessary being.

Now what is clear is that all levels of morality ASCEND in the perception of God all the way up to God (Absolute Morality).

While evil being descending can only be low, rebellious or acts of weakness and hence cannot be absolute in nature.

This proof of course not only shows how we know God is Good, but also proves and reminds of God's existence with respect to the nature of morality and logic.

The thing with me is why is it so hard to produce something that's objective for a change if one is so convinced.

It's always, and I would say always will be subjective testimonial type proofs that are coming out of the argument in favor of a God or intelligent design and while it might be okay for a person saying it, it's simply not enough for somebody who is looking for something more substantial.

 

[Nakosis]

IMO, morality is cultural. Aspects of the God people believe in, is a reflection of their culture.

So I suppose morality is the accepted truth of a culture. Culture evolves therefore morality evolves. Morality is not stagnant

Culture has a lot of control over the Gods we believe in. If a God exist, then these aspects of God, such as morality is not something we should have control over. The God that we believe in, accept is simply a reflection of our ideals. We, humans, decide who our Gods are.

 

[Prophetic_Response]

Romans 1:19-21 makes it clear everyone knows God exists b/c He has revealed it to them and they're w/o excuse. (I believe) There is no such thing as an atheist. They deny God b/c they don't want to believe in Him. (I think) They love their sin and they love to masquerade as if they need proof of God's existance. More proof is not needed. Getting them to reveal why they pretend to believe God doesn't exist is the key. Anger, bitterness, trauma, idolatry etc are the real reasons. Those who actually want proof are humble about it. How many humble atheists do you converse with?

 

[Link]

To show we know morality is necessary, we can prove like this:

"Suppose a hypothetical Creator exists in some hypothetical world"-Call it Juke

Juke invents morality.
Since morality didn't exist, he makes it whatever it wants.
It would be possible in this case that it deems torturing innocent souls forever is moral and good and honorable to do.
However, that is impossible.
If it's impossible, Juke creates morality, so then it's impossible evolution does, as Juke can create evolution (by being a Creator with power to do so).
Therefore we can conclude morality can't come to be, but only eternally exist.

How do we know Juke can't do that? Because morality by definition is eternal and necessary. This how we know, but I brought the thought experiment to show that.

 

[ratiocinator]

To show we know morality is necessary, we can prove like this:

"Suppose a hypothetical Creator exists in some hypothetical world"-Call it Juke

Juke invents morality.
Since morality didn't exist, he makes it whatever it wants.
It would be possible in this case that it deems torturing innocent souls forever is moral and good and honorable to do.
However, that is impossible.

This looks like begging the question, why would it be impossible?

 

[Link]

This looks like begging the question, why would it be impossible?

It's impossible, I'm just showing we know that by this thought experiment that morality is Necessary and Eternal.

I suppose it's not, come up with absurd notion, and prove by contradiction, that we know morality is eternal and necessary.

In fact, Philosophers use a similar thought experiment to disprove Divine command theory.

 

[ratiocinator]

Romans 1:19-21 makes it clear everyone knows God exists b/c He has revealed it to them and they're w/o excuse.

Why do you believe that verse?

Those who actually want proof are humble about it. How many humble atheists do you converse with?

Actually most of them (that I know of) are humble enough not to tell other people what they do or do not believe.

 

[ratiocinator]

It's impossible, I'm just showing we know that by this thought experiment that morality is Necessary and Eternal.

I suppose it's not, come up with absurd notion, and prove by contradiction, that we know morality is eternal and necessary.

But why is it impossible or absurd? You can't do a reductio ad absurdum unless the conclusion actually is a contradiction or absurd. You are just applying human notions of morality to some hypothetical alternative and assuming that the human ones apply (because they must be necessary) - which is begging the question (assuming your conclusion).

Some spiders eat their mates, imagine that they became intelligent enough to invent their own version of morality. One would have to assume that they would regard post-coital cannibalism as morally acceptable.

 

[Link]

When you talk about morality, in what way do you mean it? Because if you just mean it in a way that it is arbitrary in your view now, then it's a meaningless thing as now, an illusion. If you are talking about in this sense, sure, you can't prove from that, that it's necessary or eternal.

 

[ratiocinator]

When you talk about morality, in what way do you mean it? Because if you just mean it in a way that it is arbitrary in your view now, then it's a meaningless thing as now, an illusion. If you are talking about in this sense, sure, you can't prove from that, that it's necessary or eternal.

I mean that human morality is the way it is because we are social animals that are intelligent and able to empathise. I can't see anything necessary about it outside of those conditions. Morality is very much contingent, rather than necessary.

 

[Link]

I mean that human morality is the way it is because we are social animals that are intelligent and able to empathise. I can't see anything necessary about it outside of those conditions. Morality is very much contingent, rather than necessary.

Is empathy good or is it arbitrary? It is good to have empathy in moral sense of the word.

Is morality just a way of coding laws because we have empathy?

 

[icehorse]

So unlike Neo who said "we going to need guns, lots and lots of Guns", I went the approach "we going to need proofs, lots and lots of proofs" - *smiles*

I posted this in another thread, and thought it would be worth a discussion.

Morality and Logic is a Necessary truth.
Morality and Logic requires perception.
A Necessary Perception exists.

A Necessary being is Absolute in Life.
A Necessary Perception of all levels of necessary morality is only possible by a Necessary being.

Now what is clear is that all levels of morality ASCEND in the perception of God all the way up to God (Absolute Morality).

While evil being descending can only be low, rebellious or acts of weakness and hence cannot be absolute in nature.

This proof of course not only shows how we know God is Good, but also proves and reminds of God's existence with respect to the nature of morality and logic.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: What axioms are you using? Please tell us.

 

[ratiocinator]

Is empathy good or is it arbitrary?

It's not arbitrary, because there are reasons why humans have empathy. Is it "good"? Well you have yet to argue that "good" is anything but a value judgement.

It is good to have empathy in moral sense of the word.

What moral sense of the word? Again, you seem to be begging the question by assuming that there is a defined, absolute morality.