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Featured Another case of observed speciation

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Polymath257, Nov 26, 2018.

  1. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Weird how a certain someone abandoned this thread right after I posted this....LOL!
     
  2. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Active Member

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    No, we have a case of incorrect classification from people ignoring scientific definitions.....

    "A species is often defined as the largest group of organisms in which any two individuals of the appropriate sexes or mating types can produce fertile offspring, typically by sexual reproduction."

    "Subspecies: a taxonomic category that ranks below species, usually a fairly permanent geographically isolated race."
     
  3. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    Your definition of species is incorrect and does not account for those that can mate and do not as well as the many that do not use sexual reproduction. Darwin doubted that species is a real category in nature as he recognized the difficulty of determining if something was a species or not. The definition of a species is very much debated and lacks defining properties. It is human form of classification. Our theoretical understanding of species is far from defined. There are ontological questions such as are species natural kinds or individuals? There is the problem with pluralism within what we call a species and more importantly does species refer to a real category of nature or only our artificial one.
     
  4. Justatruthseeker

    Justatruthseeker Active Member

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    So you would agree that species in entirely meaningless in the scheme of things.... So evolutionists insisting that evolution develops by changing creatures gradually into new species would be based upon a frivolity of human indecision...... I got no problem with that.....

    We don't have to worry about those that can not mate, since they reproduce by cloning..... hence the E coli bacteria remained E coli bacteria regardless of how many times they tried to change them.... Hence our observation of 2 billion year old bacteria that remained unchanged from those today.... Although small changes can be observed because bacteria do indeed exchange genes from other bacteria, scavenge them from dead ones, or even from the environment. So an exchange of genes still occurs.

    conjugation (prokaryotes) | Learn Science at Scitable

    "Conjugation is the process by which one bacterium transfers genetic material to another through direct contact."

    Genetic Transfer in Prokaryotes | Boundless Microbiology

    "Homologous recombination is a major DNA repair process in bacteria. It is also important for producing genetic diversity in bacterial populations."

    So no, they are not humping like rabbits, but they are still exchanging genetic information, just in a way not known about in Darwin's day.....
     
  5. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    Species is absolutely not meaningless just not so easy to define which is what you would expect in evolutionary theory. With genetic drift and increasing variation the lines that define species are not always clear since genetic changes are occurring as predicted in evolution. Darwin realized this from the very beginning as he notices what some people called species seemed to be a variation of the species instead. The defining of species is clearly easier with some organisms and less clear with others. There are organisms that could mate but don't due to behavioral differences and have been identified as possible different species.

    The problem is the term species is a taxonomic term and often misunderstood when understanding evolution. Evolutional changes occur and based on human classification of animals there are points where we say two organisms are different and when two organisms can no longer share genetic material via sexual reproduction. Life is a huge continuum of variations of genetic expression and we use our classification system identify the different expressions along lines of development with time. What is amazing is how much dna we actually share.
    What is also amazing is how the changes in DNA along phylogenic progression agrees with the fossil evidence showing the progression of organisms over time.
     
  6. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I once saw a newsnet post talking about all the different definitions out there for the term 'species'. At the time (early 2000's), the list included at least 20 different notions, from morphospecies, to cladospecies, to 'evolutionary unit'. I might be able to find this post somewhere if anyone is interested.
     
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  7. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I found the post in my saved material, but it is long and probably not a good one to post in its entirety. It was the PhD work of the poster at that time.

    Anyone interested can send me a PM and I will send it to you.
     
  8. Wild Fox

    Wild Fox Well-Known Member

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    I think it is interesting. One of the greatest misunderstandings of terms is related to the increasing complexity of what is trying to be defined. We use words to describe a concept in which the simpler the concept the better the definition. Physics has this advantage to other sciences because the definition may in in mathematical terms. Once we leave simple concepts all our definition become incomplete not because we should not use a definition to agree on when discussing something but the inherent complexity of biological systems always creates problems. Ecology has faced this problem more than most sciences. Ecosystems are just so complex that definitions are always approximate and full of exceptions.
     
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  9. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    The ignore button is how creationists run from other posters.
     
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  10. dad

    dad Undefeated

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    Modern adapting and evolving has nothing to do with your supposed shared ancestor with a flatworm. The main part of the theory of evolution has to do with the past.
     
  11. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    Yes, actually, it does. Ever hear of Archimedes principle?
     
  12. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    This evolutionary mechanism is referred to as Gene Flow, where a migratory population (species) breed with population of native species, to produce generation of newer species.

    Gene Flow focused on populations between two different species interbreeding and hybridization, hence take fewer generations to occur, while Natural Selection are the result of many generations and the environmental changes are the major contributing drivers for changes in species, eg fitness and adaption to survive.

    Fascinating to see Gene Flow in action.
     
    #132 gnostic, Nov 21, 2020 at 10:20 AM
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020 at 3:18 PM
  13. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    You have just demonstrated @Wild Fox’s points about creationists, like yourself...

    ...not understanding speciation in Evolution.

    Speciation always occur in small stages. The accumulation of these small changes, incrementally add to larger changes over time.

    What is tragically sad is that creationists have allowed their biased (religious) beliefs to cloud their minds, time and time again, through their needs to ignoring evidence. I believe that the passages from Matthew 7:3-5 & Luke 6:41-42 would apply to creationists quite aptly.
     
  14. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Bacteria are immensely successful.

    See if you can figure what that means about evolution and your argument.

    If you can't, it means you don't know enough to have any argument at,all.

    Anyone can play cut n paste. Can you display understanding?
     
  15. Left Coast

    Left Coast Happy Holidays!
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    The person you're rebutting hasn't been online since May 2019. So they probably won't see your question.
     
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