Annihilationism?

[Bird123]

What do people think of Annihilationism?

Of God simply annihilating those he doesn't approve of, as opposed to sending them to Hell?

Of extinguishing them for all eternity, rather than torturing them for all eternity?

I think it is more in keeping with the notion of a compassionate and merciful God

And (coming at it from a Christian perspective which I know others here won't share) there is a biblical basis for it:

Annihilationism - Wikipedia

Mankind destroys that which is not easily fixed. Why do you think God is like mankind? Isn't God at a much Higher Level than either Hell or Annihilation??

Does not God have a High Intelligence?? Is it really High Intelligence to fry or annihilate the kids??

Everything about God will add up. Does it really add up that God would make kids God knew would go to Hell or have to be annihilated??

Look around at this world and the universe God created. God has to have much more Intelligence than the writers of those religious stories realize. God is not who they think or believe that God is.

At this point, I think it's time to be Thinking than merely Accepting. To Question is the start on the journey to Discovery. It's all waiting to be Discovered. God hides nothing. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. Can you see? Perhaps, it's time to look instead of imagining monsters in your beliefs.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Deeje]

Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom. ABRAHAM'S BOSOM HELD 'PRE-CHRIST CHRISTIANS'

Oh dear....you do understand that “Lazarus” was a very common name in Jesus’ day....and that “the rich man and Lazarus” was a parable about the Pharisees and the “lost sheep”...?

Do you understand what the expression “the bosom of Abraham” actually means?

Those dining at a meal in Israel reclined on a couch and the one in “the bosom position” (such as the apostle John at the last supper) were considered to be in a position of favour.

Abraham’s favoured position with God goes without saying....he is the only human in all of scripture to be called “Yahweh’s friend”.

The Jews, as Abraham’s offspring, were in a favoured position with God until Jesus came to fulfill his ministry. But Jesus was not sent to the hypocritical Jewish religious leaders....he was sent to the “lost sheep” whom the Pharisees neglected and treated as of no account...hopeless sinners.

“The rich man and Lazarus” is a very apt description of God’s favour being shifted from the Pharisees pictured by the “rich man”, to the “poor beggar” who was spiritually malnourished and sick. Their deaths symbolically meant that they changed places. Jesus went to those “lost sheep” and taught them the truth from God’s word, not the traditions of the Jewish leaders. He showed them that God loved those who could bring their lives into harmony with his requirements, not the rigid requirements set by the Pharisees, which they failed to adhere to themselves.

Taken literally, this parable makes no sense. It is nothing to do with some make believe ‘holding tank’ for ‘pre-Christians’.

Again with the cut and paste? Can’t you speak for yourself? This tells me a lot about the level of your spiritual education....who do you believe?

 

[Skywalker]

I see....so you ignored every scripture I quoted in order to stick with your preferred interpretation.....that’s OK.....we are all telling God exactly who we are, and who we think he is.....by what we accept as our truth.

I could not worship your God. Enjoying someone’s suffering is what fiends do.....there is evil in that......there is no love in allowing the wicked to live....but there is no love in watching anyone suffer in agony forever either.
Do you not understand that eternal death is separation from God?

Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4) There is no continuance of life after death, all “sleep” in their graves until the resurrection which occurs when Christ returns. (John 5:28-29) Jesus then calls all the deceased from the same place.....hades.....the grave.

Think back to the time when Jesus resurrected Lazarus. Where did Jesus say Lazarus was?
John 11:11-14...
“After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he meant taking rest in sleep. Then Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died”. (ESV)

Did Jesus say that Lazarus had gone to heaven? Did Lazarus himself say anything about where he had been? If Lazarus had gone to a better place, then why would Jesus bring him back to this life, only to die again later? Do you ever really analyze your beliefs or compare scripture with scripture?.....or do you just blindly accept what you are told?

At the end of the day, it’s not just what you believe...but who you believe......and that is our choice. But if we cannot answer challenges to our beliefs except by cut and paste, what are our beliefs worth if we cannot defend them in our own words or more importantly with God’s word?

Soul sleep doctrine takes Bible verses out of context. Soul Sleep: What Happens When A Believer Dies? | Good Fight Ministries

Perhaps in Pastor Joe’s message you may have heard Joe refer to 1 Thessalonians 4, where Paul writes about those who are "asleep." What we must keep in mind is that the word "Asleep/Sleep" is a figure of speech called a "euphemism." It’s basically a replacement word for another word that may seem too harsh or blunt. In fact, notice in John 11 Jesus uses the word "sleeping" in reference to His dear friend Lazarus who is dead. So here John 11 clearly teaches us that Lazarus is dead, and then we have Jesus turn and advise the disciples that Lazarus "sleeps" (John 11:11). The disciples, understandably, assume that Jesus is simply saying that Lazarus is just resting or taking a nap. Jesus, seeing that the disciples don’t understand what He means, then plainly says "Lazarus is dead" (John 11:14).

 

[Skywalker]

Oh dear....you do understand that “Lazarus” was a very common name in Jesus’ day....and that “the rich man and Lazarus” was a parable about the Pharisees and the “lost sheep”...?

Do you understand what the expression “the bosom of Abraham” actually means?

Those dining at a meal in Israel reclined on a couch and the one in “the bosom position” (such as the apostle John at the last supper) were considered to be in a position of favour.

Abraham’s favoured position with God goes without saying....he is the only human in all of scripture to be called “Yahweh’s friend”.

The Jews, as Abraham’s offspring, were in a favoured position with God until Jesus came to fulfill his ministry. But Jesus was not sent to the hypocritical Jewish religious leaders....he was sent to the “lost sheep” whom the Pharisees neglected and treated as of no account...hopeless sinners.

“The rich man and Lazarus” is a very apt description of God’s favour being shifted from the Pharisees pictured by the “rich man”, to the “poor beggar” who was spiritually malnourished and sick. Their deaths symbolically meant that they changed places. Jesus went to those “lost sheep” and taught them the truth from God’s word, not the traditions of the Jewish leaders. He showed them that God loved those who could bring their lives into harmony with his requirements, not the rigid requirements set by the Pharisees, which they failed to adhere to themselves.

Taken literally, this parable makes no sense. It is nothing to do with some make believe ‘holding tank’ for ‘pre-Christians’.

Again with the cut and paste? Can’t you speak for yourself? This tells me a lot about the level of your spiritual education....who do you believe?

I believe in an intermediate heaven because human beings were created to have a relationship with God. God is like a parent. Lazarus went from Abraham's bosom to the intermediate heaven. God died for our sins because He does not want to be separated from His creation. Why would souls sleep before the ressurection? God told the thief today you will be with me in paradise.

 

[Deeje]

Soul sleep doctrine takes Bible verses out of context. Soul Sleep: What Happens When A Believer Dies? | Good Fight Ministries

From your link...
"According to Luke 16 we learn from Jesus Himself that when a person died BEFORE Jesus was crucified, they went to a place called Hades/Hell (which still exists today). Based on Luke 16 Hades/Hell is a place that consists of two compartments. To help you understand this, just picture a large aquarium with a very thick glass separating it into two compartments. One side, a place of torment due to flames, which is for people who die and did not follow the One True God, which also means they don’t hold to the promise of the coming Messiah/Jesus; and the other side, Abraham’s bosom, a place for those who followed the One True God whom, of course, held to the promise of the coming Messiah/Jesus."

Oh my goodness! That is the most conflated load of hogwash I have read in years!

First of all Luke 16:14 mentions the fact that the Pharisees were “ money lovers”, so the parable following this statement was about them and their perceived favoured position as he said in the next verse....
“You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is considered exalted by men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.”

That parable has nothing whatever to do with an imagined place where God tortures bad people whose cries are hear by the people next door and a drop of water will cool them......you can’t be serious.....

"Hell" (sheol/hades) is a place where all the dead "sleep". Think about how death could be likened to sleep....do you know how long you have slept when you wake up? Are you conscious of anything going on around you until you wake up?

Solomon wrote...Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten."
If the dead "know nothing" how can they be alive?
"Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun."
The dead do not have emotions...even love has perished. How can they be alive?
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."
"No work, thought, knowledge or wisdom"...how can the dead be alive?

Solomon also wrote...Ecclesiastes 3:19-20...
"For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."

Isn't this what God told Adam? Do you see animals in heaven? Are they promised life there? Are they in the ‘holding tank’ with human souls?

The dead are dead.....and there is no teaching of an immortal soul anywhere in the Bible. A "soul" is a living, breathing, earth-bound creature. The word in scripture NEVER means a disembodied spirit.

Was Adam expecting to go to some 'two compartment holding tank', one side for burning people alive and the other for good folks, when they died? Good grief! How horrible!

I believe that you have swallowed everything this man teaches without actually thinking it through or doing any study for yourself. You are showing me that you only know what he has taught you....have you never questioned what he espouses?

I looked up his website and discovered that he has a shop where he sells his ideas through videos and books etc for a price. When Jesus sent out his disciples to preach he told them...”you received free, give free”.....are we to profit from God’s word?

 

[Deeje]

Why would souls sleep before the ressurection? God told the thief today you will be with me in paradise.

Have you ever explored this statement to the criminal hung alongside of Jesus?

Can you answer some questions for me?

Was the man a follower of Christ?
Was he baptized?
Did Jesus go to heaven on the day he died?
Where did Jesus say that this man would be with him?

 

[Skywalker]

From your link...
"According to Luke 16 we learn from Jesus Himself that when a person died BEFORE Jesus was crucified, they went to a place called Hades/Hell (which still exists today). Based on Luke 16 Hades/Hell is a place that consists of two compartments. To help you understand this, just picture a large aquarium with a very thick glass separating it into two compartments. One side, a place of torment due to flames, which is for people who die and did not follow the One True God, which also means they don’t hold to the promise of the coming Messiah/Jesus; and the other side, Abraham’s bosom, a place for those who followed the One True God whom, of course, held to the promise of the coming Messiah/Jesus."

Oh my goodness! That is the most conflated load of hogwash I have read in years!

First of all Luke 16:14 mentions the fact that the Pharisees were “ money lovers”, so the parable following this statement was about them and their perceived favoured position as he said in the next verse....
“You are those who declare yourselves righteous before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is considered exalted by men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight.”

That parable has nothing whatever to do with an imagined place where God tortures bad people whose cries are hear by the people next door and a drop of water will cool them......you can’t be serious.....

"Hell" (sheol/hades) is a place where all the dead "sleep". Think about how death could be likened to sleep....do you know how long you have slept when you wake up? Are you conscious of anything going on around you until you wake up?

Solomon wrote...Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10....
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten."
If the dead "know nothing" how can they be alive?
"Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun."
The dead do not have emotions...even love has perished. How can they be alive?
"Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going."
"No work, thought, knowledge or wisdom"...how can the dead be alive?

Solomon also wrote...Ecclesiastes 3:19-20...
"For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."

Isn't this what God told Adam? Do you see animals in heaven? Are they promised life there? Are they in the ‘holding tank’ with human souls?

The dead are dead.....and there is no teaching of an immortal soul anywhere in the Bible. A "soul" is a living, breathing, earth-bound creature. The word in scripture NEVER means a disembodied spirit.

Was Adam expecting to go to some 'two compartment holding tank', one side for burning people alive and the other for good folks, when they died? Good grief! How horrible!

I believe that you have swallowed everything this man teaches without actually thinking it through or doing any study for yourself. You are showing me that you only know what he has taught you....have you never questioned what he espouses?

I looked up his website and discovered that he has a shop where he sells his ideas through videos and books etc for a price. When Jesus sent out his disciples to preach he told them...”you received free, give free”.....are we to profit from God’s word?

The Bible talks about heaven and hell being eternal. Human beings were created to have a relationship with God. The soul was created to live forever. The meaning of life is to know God and make God known. The meaning of life is for God's glory. Why wouldn't God desire that His relationship with His children be eternal?

Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

Eternal or Temporal Punishment?

By claiming that the unrepentant wicked will have a chance to get to Heaven from Hell, Rob Bell has gone beyond that of Edward W. Fudge, who states in The Fire That Consumes, “the wicked, following whatever degree and duration of pain that God may justly inflict, will finally and truly die, perish and become extinct for ever and ever.” (Fudge, The Fire That Consumes, 1982, p. 425)

While Fudge softened what the scriptures actually state about Hell’s duration, Bell has taken it a step further and advocated a form of universalism, claiming that most, if not all, who go to Hell, will someday spend eternity in Heaven.

Rob Bell wants us to believe that the words translated “eternal,” in relation to Hell’s duration, like the noun ‘aion’ and the adjective ‘aionios’, only mean ‘age’. The truth is that the words ‘aion’ and ‘aionios’ can refer to an age or, ‘all eternity’.

In the Olivet discourse, after revealing that He will separate the righteous from the wicked like a shepherd separates sheep from the goats (Matthew 25:31-45), Jesus states that the wicked “shall go away into eternal [aionios] punishment: but the righteous into eternal[aionios] life.” (Matthew 25:46, ASV)

Jesus employed the exact adjective ‘aionios’ to describe the duration of Hell as He did for Heaven. If Hell is merely temporal, then so is Heaven! Would Bell claim that believers will only enjoy temporal life in Heaven and then cease to exist or go to Hell? I think not! Thus, if we acknowledge that Jesus was using ‘aionios’ to describe the eternal duration of life that the righteous will experience, it is an inescapable conclusion that He used ‘aionios’ to describe the eternal duration of the punishment of the wicked.

Rob Bell is utterly and unconscionably careless with the scriptures on such an important subject as where the lost will ultimately spend eternity. He would have us believe that Matthew 25:46 merely refers to an “age of pruning” rather than “eternal punishment” (p. 91). Bell claims that the Greek reads ‘aion’ (a noun), and ‘kolazo’ (a verb), in Matthew 25:46. When in reality, it is ‘kolasin’ (a noun), and ‘aionion’ (an adjective), with the adjective ‘aionion’ modifying punishment (literally, ‘eternal’ punishment).

Since the same adjective ‘aionios’ modifies the duration of life and punishment in the very same verse, sound and unbiased exegesis must conclude that all those who go to Hell, as described by Jesus in 25:46, will suffer eternal punishment.

 

[Skywalker]

Have you ever explored this statement to the criminal hung alongside of Jesus?

Can you answer some questions for me?

Was the man a follower of Christ?
Was he baptized?
Did Jesus go to heaven on the day he died?
Where did Jesus say that this man would be with him?

He became a follower of Christ before he died. He wasn't baptized. Jesus was in Abraham's bosom for three days. Jesus was in Abraham's bosom for three days. Jesus said that the thief would be with Him in paradise. What will we be doing in Heaven? What will we do in Heaven? | GotQuestions.org

In Luke 23:43, Jesus declared, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise." The word Jesus used for "paradise" is paradeisos which means "a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, paradise)". Paradeisos is the Greek word taken from the Hebrew word pardes which means "a park: - forest, orchard" (Strong’s). Jesus said, "Today you shall be with me "en paradeisos," not "en nephele" which is Greek for “in clouds.” The point is that Jesus picked and used the word for "a park." Not just any park but "the paradise of God" or park of God (Revelation 2:7) which for us will be a place of future happiness. Does this sound like a boring place? When you think of a park, do you think of boredom?

 

[Deeje]

The Bible talks about heaven and hell being eternal.

The Bible NEVER contrasts “heaven and hell” as opposite destinations. That is an assumption, but one never held by the ancient Jews. These had no belief in life after death, but only in the resurrection. Do you understand what the resurrection means? (John 5:28-29)

When God first put humans on this earth, where did He purpose for them to live forever....heaven or earth? Can you find me any mention of Hell in Adam’s sentence after his sin?

Human beings were created to have a relationship with God. The soul was created to live forever. The meaning of life is to know God and make God known. The meaning of life is for God's glory. Why wouldn't God desire that His relationship with His children be eternal?

Was God intending an eternal relationship with Adam and his offspring? I believe so.....but where were these ones going to live forever? Was it heaven or on earth? Please use scripture.....

Rob Bell: Populating Hell | Good Fight Ministries

Is there some reason why you can never use the scriptures to back up what you say? I have no interest in what your links have to say, because they are just one person’s opinions.....please use the scriptures and your own words, otherwise you are just a parrot....is that good enough for you?

 

[Skywalker]

The Bible NEVER contrasts “heaven and hell” as opposite destinations. That is an assumption, but one never held by the ancient Jews. These had no belief in life after death, but only in the resurrection. Do you understand what the resurrection means? (John 5:28-29)

When God first put humans on this earth, where did He purpose for them to live forever....heaven or earth? Can you find me any mention of Hell in Adam’s sentence after his sin?


Was God intending an eternal relationship with Adam and his offspring? I believe so.....but where were these ones going to live forever? Was it heaven or on earth? Please use scripture.....


Is there some reason why you can never use the scriptures to back up what you say? I have no interest in what your links have to say, because they are just one person’s opinions.....please use the scriptures and your own words, otherwise you are just a parrot....is that good enough for you?

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The resurrection has to do with God never intended for His children to live in the intermediate Heaven for eternity. I believe that the eternal heaven will be the earth recreated, like when humanity walked with God in the Garden of Eden.

I believe that God intended for Adam and Eve to live on the earth forever. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Matthew 25:31-45 mentions Jesus will tell those who reject Him to depart from Him.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do itto one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

Jesus said in Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 7:21-23 mentions Jesus being the judge.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Deeje]

In Luke 23:43, Jesus declared, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise." The word Jesus used for "paradise" is paradeisos which means "a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, paradise)". Paradeisos is the Greek word taken from the Hebrew word pardes which means "a park: - forest, orchard" (Strong’s). Jesus said, "Today you shall be with me "en paradeisos," not "en nephele" which is Greek for “in clouds.” The point is that Jesus picked and used the word for "a park." Not just any park but "the paradise of God" or park of God (Revelation 2:7) which for us will be a place of future happiness. Does this sound like a boring place? When you think of a park, do you think of boredom?

Where was the first paradise? And who made it as a blueprint for the whole earth? Jesus never promised the thief Heaven....he promised that he would be with him in “paradise”....a beautiful park-like garden.....like Eden. What did God tell Adam and his wife to do?

He became a follower of Christ before he died.

You mean that deathbed conversions can get someone into heaven?? Where will I find that idea anywhere in scripture?
The thief was not a baptized disciple of Christ and so he will be among the “unrighteousness” ones whom Jesus will resurrect for life on earth. (John 5:28-29) What makes you think that God ever intended to take humans to heaven when he put us here on a very carefully prepared planet with everything needed to sustain a happy and healthy life here? Where was death ever mentioned?

Jesus was in Abraham's bosom for three days. Jesus was in Abraham's bosom for three days. Jesus said that the thief would be with Him in paradise.

Where does it say that “Jesus was in Abraham’s bosom” for three days? It states clearly that he was dead in his tomb for three days, ‘just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish’....Jesus did not go anywhere because he was dead. His God raised him on the third day.
You are putting your own spin on the story based on what someone else told you.....again is that what we are supposed to do? Why were the ancient Beroeans commended? (Acts 17:10-11) Have you done this?

 

[Deeje]

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 25:46

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The resurrection has to do with God never intended for His children to live in the intermediate Heaven for eternity. I believe that the eternal heaven will be the earth recreated, like when humanity walked with God in the Garden of Eden.

I believe that God intended for Adam and Eve to live on the earth forever. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Matthew 25:31-45 mentions Jesus will tell those who reject Him to depart from Him.

31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do itto one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

Jesus said in Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 7:21-23 mentions Jesus being the judge.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I’ll get to this later.....

 

[Skywalker]

Where was the first paradise? And who made it as a blueprint for the whole earth? Jesus never promised the thief Heaven....he promised that he would be with him in “paradise”....a beautiful park-like garden.....like Eden. What did God tell Adam and his wife to do?


You mean that deathbed conversions can get someone into heaven?? Where will I find that idea anywhere in scripture?
The thief was not a baptized disciple of Christ and so he will be among the “unrighteousness” ones whom Jesus will resurrect for life on earth. (John 5:28-29) What makes you think that God ever intended to take humans to heaven when he put us here on a very carefully prepared planet with everything needed to sustain a happy and healthy life here? Where was death ever mentioned?


Where does it say that “Jesus was in Abraham’s bosom” for three days? It states clearly that he was dead in his tomb for three days, ‘just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish’....Jesus did not go anywhere because he was dead. His God raised him on the third day.
You are putting your own spin on the story based on what someone else told you.....again is that what we are supposed to do? Why were the ancient Beroeans commended? (Acts 17:10-11) Have you done this?

The Bible mentions an intermediate heaven. It will not be the eternal heaven because human beings were meant to dwell on the earth forever. What is the intermediate state? | GotQuestions.org

The “intermediate state” is a theological concept that speculates regarding what kind of body, if any, believers in heaven have while they wait for their physical bodies to be resurrected. The Bible makes it clear that deceased believers are with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). The Bible also makes it clear that the resurrection of believers has not yet occurred, meaning that the bodies of deceased believers are still in the grave (1 Corinthians 15:50-54; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17). So, the question of the intermediate state is whether believers in heaven are given temporary physical bodies until the resurrection, or whether believers in heaven exist in spiritual/non-corporeal form until the resurrection.

The Bible does not give a great amount of detail regarding the intermediate state. The only Scripture that specifically, but indirectly, speaks to the issue is Revelation 6:9, “… I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.”

 

[Deeje]

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

What do you notice here? Its says "many who sleep in the dust will awaken"...but not all. Out of those who do awaken when Jesus calls them from their graves, some will have already proven themselves to be faithful and obedient servants of God "unto death", and some will end up with 'shame and everlasting contempt'....so what is this everlasting contempt? According to Matthew 25:46....it is "everlasting punishment".....but what form does this "everlasting punishment" take?

If Jesus is going to resurrect 'both the righteous and the unrighteous', what about the 'wicked'? Jesus said that these would be confined to "Gehenna"....so what is Gehenna? I'll give you a clue...it isn't "hell".

"Gehenna" was Jerusalem's garbage dump where the city's trash, the carcasses of dead animals, and the bodies of executed criminals were cast for disposal. Nothing alive ever went into Gehenna. Its fires were kept burning day and night by the addition of brimstone (sulfur) and the maggots finished off what the flames left.....hence 'the unquenchable fire and the worms that never die'. It was all symbolic of those who will never get a resurrection, but will be completely annihilated from life forever. It was a Jewish belief that those without a burial tomb with their name and family lineage inscribed, would not be remembered by God in the resurrection....that is what Jesus' Jewish audience understood.

Why do the wicked need to suffer? Isn't eternal death enough of a punishment? The death penalty was the highest penalty anyone could pay for their sins. Only a fiend would demand eternal suffering. "God is love".

The resurrection has to do with God never intended for His children to live in the intermediate Heaven for eternity. I believe that the eternal heaven will be the earth recreated, like when humanity walked with God in the Garden of Eden.

I believe that God intended for Adam and Eve to live on the earth forever. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

OK...where will I find this "intermediate heaven" in the scriptures? As far as I am aware there are three 'heavens' that are spoken of in the Bible....the "heavens" where the birds fly....the sky....the atmosphere above the earth (Genesis 6:1-8).....and the "heavens" where the stars sun, moon and stars are seen, (the Universe) as in Genesis 1:1 "God created the "heavens" and the earth". Then there is the third kind of "heaven"....the spirit realm where God and his angelic creation dwell. As Jesus prayed..."Our Father who art in heaven". So which of these are you referring to?

Matthew 25:31-45 mentions Jesus will tell those who reject Him to depart from Him.

The interesting thing about Jesus' rejection of these ones is in their response to his negative judgment of them....they seem incredulous as if he must be mistaken as they relate to him all the things they did in his name....so they are not those who reject Christ....he is rejecting them because they were not "doing the will of the Father"......how did they get it so wrong?

Don't we find the "goats" doing the same thing? Asking when they failed to support his brethren? They had no idea, and yet God consigns them to "gehenna".....the place 'reserved for the devil and his angels'. This is the sin of omission.....NOT doing what Christ commanded, but only choosing to do what was convenient.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-9...
God will " grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might".

What does "eternal destruction" mean? It means "annihilation".

So there are only two kinds of people who will perish at the final judgment....."those who do not know God" because they don't want to know him....and "those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus". So those who identify as "Christians" but who don't obey all that he commanded. Can you think of ways in which they fail in this?

If all those people who identify as "Christians" get it so wrong, what then is "the will of the Father" that Christians must be found doing? What do you think?

 

[Yerda]

I believe that the flood was real because I have no reason to doubt that it happened.

Just for the sake of argument, if I were to suggest to you that the geological record seems to rule out a global flood would you consider that a reason to doubt that it happened?

 

[Deeje]

Just for the sake of argument, if I were to suggest to you that the geological record seems to rule out a global flood would you consider that a reason to doubt that it happened?

Those little words.....”seems to”, resonate here because faith is not required when something is provable. When “evidence” interpreted by man is “missing”, does that mean that God is wrong or that men of the sciences are mistaken? Have they been mistaken before? Yes! Many times.

I have read many accounts of geologists who say that there is evidence of global flooding in many parts of the world, but because, like evolution, it is disregarded by the bulk of the scientific community, other explanations are offered....interpretations differ.

As I said, I have no reason to doubt my Creator just because man might give a different explanation of his actions.
I just have to look at the universe to know what power he possesses. I also understand why he brought such a devastating catastrophe upon those living at that time.....because it not only solved an enormous problem of the day, but created a precedent for the “ungodly” at the time of Jesus’ return. (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 2:5-6)

The dimensions of the ark itself has provided the standard ratio for shipbuilding for centuries. Models of the ark (a box-like structure designed to float, rather than a boat designed to navigate) have been tested in wave tanks and found to be extremely stable in all conditions, no matter what size the waves were. How would someone living thousands of years ago have that degree of knowledges, along with the layout being completely compatible with space for the humans, the animals and also food supplies for the duration, separated into three stories. It was an enormous structure, and God himself provided a detailed “blueprint” outlining the dimensions, the type of timber, as well as waterproofing. It would have taken decades to complete.

The story is that God brought the animal specimens to Noah, so the “kinds” and numbers of the ark’s occupants were determined by God....and we have no idea how his power was used to repopulate the earth with their kinds afterwards.

It’s all about faith for me.....but having investigated the sciences that argue with the Bible, I came to realise how much faith is needed to believe what science concludes as well. It’s actually one “belief” system fighting with another IMO. We choose who to believe for our own reasons.

 

[Yerda]

Those little words.....”seems to”, resonate here because faith is not required when something is provable. When “evidence” interpreted by man is “missing”, does that mean that God is wrong or that men of the sciences are mistaken? Have they been mistaken before? Yes! Many times.

I have read many accounts of geologists who say that there is evidence of global flooding in many parts of the world, but because, like evolution, it is disregarded by the bulk of the scientific community, other explanations are offered....interpretations differ.

As I said, I have no reason to doubt my Creator just because man might give a different explanation of his actions.
I just have to look at the universe to know what power he possesses. I also understand why he brought such a devastating catastrophe upon those living at that time.....because it not only solved an enormous problem of the day, but created a precedent for the “ungodly” at the time of Jesus’ return. (Matthew 24:37-39; 2 Peter 2:5-6)

The dimensions of the ark itself has provided the standard ratio for shipbuilding for centuries. Models of the ark (a box-like structure designed to float, rather than a boat designed to navigate) have been tested in wave tanks and found to be extremely stable in all conditions, no matter what size the waves were. How would someone living thousands of years ago have that degree of knowledges, along with the layout being completely compatible with space for the humans, the animals and also food supplies for the duration, separated into three stories. It was an enormous structure, and God himself provided a detailed “blueprint” outlining the dimensions, the type of timber, as well as waterproofing. It would have taken decades to complete.

The story is that God brought the animal specimens to Noah, so the “kinds” and numbers of the ark’s occupants were determined by God....and we have no idea how his power was used to repopulate the earth with their kinds afterwards.

It’s all about faith for me.....but having investigated the sciences that argue with the Bible, I came to realise how much faith is needed to believe what science concludes as well. It’s actually one “belief” system fighting with another IMO. We choose who to believe for our own reasons.

So is it reasonable to say then that expert opinion is not reason enough for you to doubt the global flood scenario occured?

 

[Deeje]

So is it reasonable to say then that expert opinion is not reason enough for you to doubt the global flood scenario occured?

No human expert is equal to the Creator...so....no. God doesn't lie.

I do not doubt my Creator because he has never given me reason to doubt him....in all the years I have been a JW, he has always provided me with answers to my questions, and guidance about my decisions so that I never made the wrong choices in life. I trust him more than I trust any man.

 

[Yerda]

No human expert is equal to the Creator...so....no. God doesn't lie.

I do not doubt my Creator because he has never given me reason to doubt him....in all the years I have been a JW, he has always provided me with answers to my questions, and guidance about my decisions so that I never made the wrong choices in life. I trust him more than I trust any man.

Ok. That's cool, if it works for you. If I thought I had personal contact with the creator I'd probably take his word for it too.

Out of interest, do you see anything in the Bible that conflicts with what we are sure is true about the world through science?

 

[Deeje]

Ok. That's cool, if it works for you. If I thought I had personal contact with the creator I'd probably take his word for it too.

Out of interest, do you see anything in the Bible that conflicts with what we are sure is true about the world through science?

That is an interesting question as it means that we need to establish the difference between established (proven) science....and theoretical science.....because both are presented under one banner. The truth is, theoretical science is open to interpretation (often very biased) and offered to both the student and teacher alike, as if it were fact. There are no “facts” in theories...there are “beliefs”.....the science buffs will not admit that, but it’s true. If you have to use words like “might have”, “could have” or “leads us to the conclusion that...” you have no facts....you have assumptions.