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Animals, a soul, and free will

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Pah, Sep 4, 2004.

  1. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Animals were created Nephesh just as man, nephesh is a living creature, both do not have a soul, but are a soul/nephesh.
    Animals were created with instinct, a knowing, according to its species.
    The only thing sin did to them is they also became destined to die.
    Man being created in the image of Y-H-V-H has intelect and free will.
     
  2. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    There's four things it could be then.

    1. "God"

    2. Innate human abiltity.

    3. The AIDS virus just went in to remision, only to come back later, with him thinking he's healed.

    4. The mind thought it was healed, and so, affected the body. The body pumped it's Immuno system up and defeated the virus.

    Using the law of Occam's razor (the simplest, plausible explanation is usually right), I'd have to say it went into remission, as viruses often do.

    What do you feel when you do this? I feel a deep peace. I see from a tree's point of view, and I feel connected to the world. I grow immensly patient, and content. I haven't yet gotten the bird, because they see to fly away too fast. :p

    I don't understand. What is a "totem animal"?
     
  3. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    When I'm with a tree, I feel the deep peace that you mentioned, that feeling of interconnected-ness. I also connect with the personal spirit of the tree. The 'conversation' you might have with a sapling is naturally quite different than that you might have with a mighty oak.

    I should've explained what a totem animal is, my apologies! According to various traditions, the phrase might be used as 'power animal' or another phrase. Depending on the individual, one might have one or hundreds of these critters, which are usually a reflection of one's deepest self. They might also represent qualities which one possesses, or which Spirit is trying to remind one of the importance of. For example, a mentor of mine is most closely connected with the bear. Not only does he look like one, people say he gives 'bear hugs,' and make bear puns around him, even if they don't know that he's a shaman. That's because the bear spirit that he is is so much at the forefront of his being that people who don't know any better still recognize him for what he is.

    In esoteric usage, a common way to walk, as a shaman (or any other type of spiritual traveller), is with a totem animal on each side. For example, when I'm doing 'spirit work', I walk with a fox to my right side, a spider on my left, and raven flies above me. This is because these animals (or their qualities, however one wishes to see it) resonate most closely with my soul. That which I am, my power animal, is what I tend to walk as.

    I've found that the most easy way of discovering what your power animal is is simply looking around your room at home. Do you have pictures/ stuffed animals/ or books on a certain animal or type of animal? Normally, that's your subconsious trying to assert to you what you are. There are any number of other ways to 'discover' your animals, but I've found that's one of the easiest.
    Also, one of the greatest things I've learned in my travels is that ones' power animal doesn't have to be 'real.' If you feel drawn to a dragon, a pegasus or another creature, trust your instinct! It isn't lying to you! :)
     
  4. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    unless you give book,chapter,and verse.your statement is null and void.

    and given that you used to be a catholic, i mustn't hesitate to believe that you have been tought wrong.

    but, given they are a 'soul' it is not improper to believe they were given themselves.they still have no spirit.i must apologize if this is rude, but personal claims do not outweigh the scriptures.

    my power animal is a penguin

    --S
     
  5. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    I pre-apologize for this. I normally am not an argumentive person, and dislike confrontation. I even promise to end this post by getting back on topic, really!

    "unless you give book,chapter,and verse.your statement is null and void."

    Curses! It's looking like your argument is therefore null and void.

    And, I fear, the fact that you used to be whatever you are right now, that means I mustn't hesitate to believe that you have been taught wrong. Truly sad, since I would've respected your opinion otherwise. Unless you were being sarcastic, and quoting "Fight Club", please consider communing with the spirit of the penguin. It traditionally means a return to playfulness.

    To be back on-topic, I think we were discussing whether or not the God of the Bible embodied animals with souls, and not whether or not certain religions were more valid than others. I am sorry if I managed to pull us off-topic.
     
  6. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    "but I have never seen an animal do these things."

    um, there are some dogs who can find cancer on the human body. dogs and cats in general help people, it makes them feel better. and laughter is the best medicine.

    i think demonic spirits are just negative sprits. some are strong some arent. there are some spirits of the dead. that still remain on this earth because they are confused.

    animals can see these. or sense them. my half aunt had a puppy who kept barking inslanely when she took him over this certain spot. this is india folks, 100 degree weather. and that spot was cold. not just physical, but you know, mental. just made you icky. and the dog would always bark at it. it would sometimes move.

    later we found out that some person died a death there. creepy.

    many dogs do bark at places where humans have no idea who or what is there. creepy.
     
  7. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Died a death? I should hope so! It's a good thing he never died a life! ;)
     
  8. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    how well do you know me now?how playful am i not?tell me more about my behavior irl, plz.


    --S
     
  9. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    well i quoted the 'bible' many times in my first post on this thread, something you've yet to do.keep in mind the first post of this thread(pah spoke of genesis), and give me reason why you think it should not be a 'bible' based discussion.


    --S
     
  10. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    First of all, why do you always use the quotation marks on the word bible?

    Second of all, it doesn't need to be a bible based conversation simply because the bible may be a work of fiction.

    Why would your "God", equate the slaying of an ox to the slaying of a man if the ox wasn't an equal? Verses from the bible that show non-human animals having souls or spirits:

     
  11. HelpMe

    HelpMe ·´sociopathic meanderer`·

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    i said that every living thing is a soul, the almighty has given them life.this being a soul is not the same as having free will, this is given by the spirit which 'god' gives according to the 'bible'.

    as pertaining to 'Isaiah 66:3-4'("But whoever sacrifices a bull
    is like one who kills a man..."), i can only give the obvious answer that in the ancient 'biblical' times, animals were regarded higher, especially if they were another man's possession.it has never been ok scripturally to kill something for no reason.

    if you say so?if you want to discuss the validity of the 'bible' then take it to the proper thread, this one was made to discuss animals as souls and free will.

    you obvisouly haven't even been reading along, because i have pointed out how scripture denotes souls as different from the spirit.

    because i believe it should be called scripture, but if i refer to it repeatedly as scripture, many here may incidentally believe i am referring to another religion's works.


    --S
     
  12. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    You're quite right, and I apologize. I do not know your behavior "IRL," and I should not have said anything based on that. I have a bad tendancy to believe that, because I 'behave' the same online as I do "IRL" that most other people do the same. My comment was flippant, when I should not have been. As for second point, while I have studied the Bible most of my life, I am not a Biblical scholar, by any means. That doesn't make me a better or worse human being for it, but I prefer to let those who actually know their stuff duke it out, while adding in the bits I actually do know. And I'll have to check the notes, but I don't believe I ever said anything about it not being a bible-based discussion.
     
  13. Ardhanariswar

    Ardhanariswar I'm back!

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    what are all your definitions of soul and spirit and mind and body?
     
  14. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    The question of whether or not an animal (including humans) has a soul or spirit is moot. Those cannot be proven, no matter how hard we try. We can, however, show that different members of the same species will choose differently when given a certain scenario. What do you say about the two sign-language chimps? They taught two chimps to use the same sign-language. They then taught them each to use different tools then the other to reach a certain goal (in this case, food). They put them in different rooms, connected only by a window. Each side had different tools, tools that each chimp personally couldn't use, but the other could. The scientists observed through a 1-way mirror. One of the chimps went to the window and signed for the other to come over. When the other one did, they talked for about 5 minutes. Soon, they were teaching each other about the different tools, better then any human could have, because they can visualize the others point of view. Now they were able to get the food. They had learned to teach using language. If they had been re-introduced into the wild, they would have taught other chimps to use the sign-language, and soon, many chimps would, and they would develop their own variations of language. They have "innovation". The point is, we can communicate with them and they can tell us their emotions and feelings. To say they are anything but equal is terribly ignorant, blind and vain.

    And from the womb of the void, who shall stem the blood tide?
     
  15. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    I have a question, to those who have done it, if it is not a religious secret or anything, what is the process that one goes through to share spirits with trees/animals while christian I know that other powers out there might not be evil even though not of God.

    I would really like to expirience this melding of "mind" to see what it is like
     
  16. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    my guess would be that we talk with spirits much the same way as christians talk with saints, angels and so on. As far as my faith goes the spirits were created by 'god' and so are just as much 'of god' as anything elce.

    Wa:do
     
  17. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    I'll be happy to send you a PM, Mister Emu! It might take a certain amount of babbling, though, so please be patient!
     
  18. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    Thank you very much.

    Yes the spirits are of God, I never said they weren't.
     
  19. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    sorry Mister Emu... "I know that other powers out there might not be evil even though not of God." confused me.

    There are many ways to speak with spirits from simple meditation to complex rituals.

    perhaps asking the folks that hang out in the 'paganism' area would help you find advice on this.

    hope this helps some :)

    wa:do
     
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  20. Druidus

    Druidus Keeper of the Grove

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    Alright, here's my idea. We list out the reasons that non-human animals do or don't have souls and free will. The catch is, we aren't allowed to use the bible, or any other religious work or belief, or evolution. I'll start with a few showing why they do.

    1. Because their anatomy and brain structure is so similar to ours.
    2. Because they feel pain. Why have pain if you have no soul?
    3. Because life is life, and why should one life be different?
     
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