Animal Rights

[huajiro]

Wait... what? So you say that most animals who usually hunt us dont ONLY because we have killed them off? Good thing they are above us on the food chain. Just don't tell their anscetors that we killed that ;-)

Again. Just because in the past animals might have been our predators does not mean that TODAY we are not on top of the food chain. My claim was not that humans have always been on top, it was simply that currently we are on top of the food chain. And again, to say that in a given situation another animal could kill us is bogus. Jeeze, do I have to keep repeating myself? )

We can go back and forth with scientific data........it doesn't really matter. It all comes down to a decision. You eat meat, you survive.......I don't, I also survive. I have made a decision to spare many living beings........you don't see this point. When you are on the operating table in hopefully many years because your body is so clogged with fat.....I hope you remember what we discussed. I have a feeling in the afterlife, you will have a few things to answer to as well, for killing unnecessarily........but that again, is just my belief.

 

[Ryan2065]

Great points Druidus!

First off, your world hunger section doesn't really add much to the debate. Sorry, but if decreasing my meat consumption by 10% will save everyone in the world who is starving, then so be it. I am still eating meat, so on this debate on animal rights, it proves nothing.

Your environment section's stats on green house effects are horribly wrong. Let me help make them right for you... (my edits are in the bold italics)

Cause of global warming: enhancement of the greenhouse effect
Primary cause of the enhancement of the greenhouse effect: Water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas... carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels

Ok, there we go. All better. So that no one confuses what I am saying... The greenhouse effect is what warms the earth. If we did not have the greenhouse effect, the earth would be about -18 degrees C. The problem comes in to effect when we enhance the effects of the greenhouse effect. Also, there is no proof that global warming will do anything to our environment.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/technologyandresearch/a/earthday.htm

There is no “scientific consensus” that global warming will cause damaging climate change.

Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat free diet: 50 times more.

Ok, I'll give you that. But that is a useless stat if you do not give the exact numbers, instead of just giving the proportions. This proves nothing.

Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85

And this proves what? That meat takes alot of space to grow. Again, why are you showing some of these stats? They have no value here. The argument is actually about animal rights.

Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million

I'd like to see proof of this. All the articles I have read state that we have more trees than we did a hundred years ago.
(from article quoted above)

“Tree huggers’” claims of mass de-forestation are completely unfounded based on the numbers. In the early part of the twentieth century, people cut down twice as many trees as they planted; now the United States grows 36 percent more trees than it harvests. Some researchers believe tree numbers are larger today than when Columbus arrived in 1492!

Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds.
Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. house cat.

So? What is your point here? This proves nothing...

Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound hamburger: 55 sq ft.

Really? Any facts to back that one up?

Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year.

So this is from meat grazing and other uses? Please find the number for just meat grazing. For all I know the meat grazers could only take up 1% of that 1,000 per year.

Also cattle contribute to global warming by being one of the biggest sources of carbon dioxide and methane gases.

Really? Notice how there are no numbers here, nor links to any scientific data at all.
On to the cancer section! Oh wait, your cancer section offers no vaild points at all here. We are seeing if it is ok to eat animals right now. Your study compares people who eat meat alot to people who eat meat a little. Notice they are still eating meat.

Now I was going to come up with a counter argument for all your points, but I can use a blanket one right here and save me the trouble. You have absolutely no scientific facts to back up your claims. The errors I have pointed out in your stats lead me to believe they were not put together by a scientist. Please bring me information that is useful (IE information that quotes scientific studies and facts and that kind of stuff)

 

[Ryan2065]

We can go back and forth with scientific data........it doesn't really matter. It all comes down to a decision. You eat meat, you survive.......I don't, I also survive. I have made a decision to spare many living beings........you don't see this point. When you are on the operating table in hopefully many years because your body is so clogged with fat.....I hope you remember what we discussed. I have a feeling in the afterlife, you will have a few things to answer to as well, for killing unnecessarily........but that again, is just my belief.

First off, you made claims and offered no scientific data while I made claims and offered scientific data. Slight distinction there.

You made reference that it is healthier to eat a pure vegtable diet rather than having some meat in your diet. I was hoping you would do that!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282257.stm

Putting children on strict vegan diets is "unethical" and could harm their development, a US scientist has argued.

This is from my origional essay that refuted all your earlier claims...

In the plant kingdom, taurine occurs in traces, averaging ~0.01

mc mol/g fresh wt of green tissue according to one report (424). This is <1% of the content of the most abundant free amino acids.​

Taurine is a very important amino acid involved in a large number of metabolic processes. Huxtable provides a lengthy list of the biological functions provided by taurine [1992, Table 1, p. 102].

Taurine levels lower in vegans. Laidlaw et al. report [1988, pp. 661-663]:



The results of the present study indicate that the plasma taurine concentrations in the vegans were significantly reduced to 78% of control values. Urinary taurine was reduced in the vegans to only 29% of control values...

I will agree that humans eat too much meat, but to say that I will be unhealthy solely due to the fact that I eat meat is a bogus claim. And thanks for the insenstive comment you made.... Here I'll quote it for you...

When you are on the operating table in hopefully many years because your body is so clogged with fat.....I hope you remember what we discussed.

Due to more than likely a genetic condition, my family has horrible cholestrol levels. My cholestrol level, when left untreated, is around 375. My sisters is 475 and my moms is 450. One of my cousins at the age of 29 had to go in for a tripple bypass, my grandpa at the age of 35 died from a heart attack. My uncle at the age of 33 had a massive heart attack and now needs a defibulator (i think that is what it is) in him. Now I believe you are the one assuming you know what I eat and know my family history.

 

[huajiro]

First off, you made claims and offered no scientific data while I made claims and offered scientific data. Slight distinction there.

You made reference that it is healthier to eat a pure vegtable diet rather than having some meat in your diet. I was hoping you would do that!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4282257.stm
This is from my origional essay that refuted all your earlier claims...

I will agree that humans eat too much meat, but to say that I will be unhealthy solely due to the fact that I eat meat is a bogus claim. And thanks for the insenstive comment you made.... Here I'll quote it for you...
Due to more than likely a genetic condition, my family has horrible cholestrol levels. My cholestrol level, when left untreated, is around 375. My sisters is 475 and my moms is 450. One of my cousins at the age of 29 had to go in for a tripple bypass, my grandpa at the age of 35 died from a heart attack. My uncle at the age of 33 had a massive heart attack and now needs a defibulator (i think that is what it is) in him. Now I believe you are the one assuming you know what I eat and know my family history.

Although I am sorry about your family history it has nothing to do with what I posted

 

[Ryan2065]

Although I am sorry about your family history it has nothing to do with what I posted

Your post that dealt with cholesterol levels.

When you are on the operating table in hopefully many years because your body is so clogged with fat.....I hope you remember what we discussed.

Your body clogging with fat is directly related to your cholesterol levels.

And you have not addressed the actual points I raised in my last post. You made reference to the idea that a vegan diet is healthier than a diet that includes meat. Please give some scientific sources for this claim. (you know, like studies or something of the sort)

 

[huajiro]

Your post that dealt with cholesterol levels.
Your body clogging with fat is directly related to your cholesterol levels.

And you have not addressed the actual points I raised in my last post. You made reference to the idea that a vegan diet is healthier than a diet that includes meat. Please give some scientific sources for this claim. (you know, like studies or something of the sort)

I said "animal fat".......unless your family has an animal fat problem, you need to keep your personal issues away from me

 

[Ryan2065]

I said "animal fat".......unless your family has an animal fat problem, you need to keep your personal issues away from me

So for the third time I will quote what you said... This shouldn't be so hard, you are the one that said it...

When you are on the operating table in hopefully many years because your body is so clogged with fat.....I hope you remember what we discussed.

Yup, you defently said animal fat there... oh wait...

Now AGAIN I ask you to give studies, something that shows that a vegan diet is healthier than a diet that has meat in it.

 

[huajiro]

So for the third time I will quote what you said... This shouldn't be so hard, you are the one that said it...
Yup, you defently said animal fat there... oh wait...

Now AGAIN I ask you to give studies, something that shows that a vegan diet is healthier than a diet that has meat in it.

Did I say cholesterol? You seem to think you have a point here........you have none. I know what I mean. If you want to take everything I say and distort it for your own use, I am not going to stand by and let that happen. You think you are debating with me......I am just trying to keep you from misusing what I say. I have stated what I wanted to and am done with you.......it is time to move on. End of subject.

 

[Druidus]

In it's statement of position on the vegetarian diet [13], the American Dietetic Association states:

• "Scientific data suggest positive relationships between a vegetarian diet and reduced risk for several chronic degenerative diseases and conditions, including obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and some types of cancer. Vegetarian diets, like all diets, need to be planned appropriately to be nutritionally adequate."
• "It is the position of The American Dietetic Association (ADA) that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, are nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases."

According to the American Dietetic Association’s position paper on vegetarian diets [1] “Appropriately planned vegan and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants, children, and adolescents and promote normal growth.”



You want a study Ryan? Here:

Professor Irving Fisher conducted one such study and published his results in the Yale Medical Journal. He concluded:

Of the three groups compared, the flesh-eaters showed far less endurance than the abstainers, even when the latter were leading a sedentary life. The difference in endurance was due entirely to the difference in their diet. There is strong evidence that a non-flesh diet is conducive to endurance.
Fisher, Irving, "The Influence of Flesh Eating on Endurance," Yale Medical Journal, 13(5):205-221, 1907

At the Academie de Medicine of Paris, Dr. Ioteyko conducted a series of tests in which vegetarians from all walks of life averaged two to three times more stamina than the meat-eaters, and recovered from exhaustion five times as quickly.


Ioteyko, J., et al, "Enquete scientifique sur les Vegetariens de Bruxelles", Henri Lamertin, Brussels, pg 50

In Denmark, a study found that the same group of men could pedal a stationary bicycle for an average of 167 minutes when fed a vegetarian diet. But only 57 minutes on a meat-based diet.

Astrand, Per-Olaf, "Nutrition Today," 3:no.2,9-11, 1968

Doctors in Belgium compared the number of times vegetarians and meat-eaters could squeeze a grip-meter. The vegetarians averaged 69 while the meat eaters averaged only 38. The vegetarians also recovered faster than their meat-eating counterparts.

Schouteden, A., "Ann de Soc. Des Scienses Med.," et Nat. de Bruxelles (Belgium)

 

[Ryan2065]

Ahh, thank you Druidus. Sometimes I just want to bang my head against the wall when people keep making the same statements over and over without any evidance to back them up. The study that showed that vegans tend to have more energy than meat eaters was kind of interesting. Are there any studies more recent on that than 1968? I notice your first study was in 1907 but the other two don't have any dates associated with them.

**Edit** Your studies show that a vegan diet is good, but they don't show that a vegan diet is necessarily better than a felsh eaters diet.

 

[Ryan2065]

Ahh, I was reading your article Druidus and it does say that a vegan lifestyle has been shown to promote better health. You just need vitamin supplements to give yourself the vitamins you need that you don't get when you eat meat.

So back to the actual topic of the thread... Animal rights, do they get any? =P

 

[Druidus]

You just need vitamin supplements to give yourself the vitamins you need that you don't get when you eat meat.

I would debate even that. I've never taken vitamin pills, and I'm in good shape. A little overweight, sure, but I'm healthy. I box, lift weights (more than my bodyweight), I run, and I rock climb. The only vitamin I may be missing is vitamin B12, which is produced by bacteria located on the outside of plant products and inside meats. With modern cleaning methods, these bacterii are killed, though they survive within meat. But I'm not worried about that, as getting dirty supplies you with some B12. A little grime in your life is healthy, supplying both vitamin B12, and immune boosters.

Animal rights, do they get any? =P

Why would they not? I think that they are granted intrinsic rights by mere birth and being.

 

[BUDDY]

I tend to stay away from this argument because I don't really have much of an opinion on the issue. Not one that has been clearly thought out and detailed that I feel comfortable talking about it anyway. I do want to say though, that I think that what we owe the animal kingdom is not so much their own rights, but rather we owe them a responsable attitude in our relation with them. For some reason when I think about rights, again this is not completely thought out on my part, but when I think about rights, I only think about the rights human beings have to certain things in this world. The idea of animals having these rights kind of removes us as the dominant creatures on the planet in a way, doesn't it? Okay, am I making any sense here? If not, I will happily retreat back to the puzzles and game ssection of the forum and you will never hear from me on this subject again.

 

[painted wolf]

I have mixed feelings about medical testing... I accept that some must be done, but I feel that much of it is unnessisary or poorly done.

As for eating meat, My faith holds plants, animals and humans as equils... Selu(corn) and Awi(deer) both offered thier lives to keep our people alive. How do I justify accepting Selu's sacrifice but not Awi's? HOw do I tell Selu that her life is worth less than his?
I can't.

Now for using animal products... Feathers, bones and so on are vital parts of my faith. They are not used frivolusly or lightly. We keep our culture and faith alive with the help of our animal and plant brothers and sisters. Buffalo, Elk and eaven the humble Cow help us make our drums so we can hear the heartbeat of the earth just as much as the wood that makes the frame.
Turtle shells, gourds, dew claws, bones and shells, and rawhide from animal skin make our rattles so we can sing our prayers.
No artifical material can bring out the earths heartbeat or help to carry your prayers... it will only be a hollow sham.

At the same time Animals are our brothers and sisters and deserve just as much respect as we would give to any human. The animals that give thier lives to help you live are to be respected and celebrated.. they deserve to live as good as life as possible and then when it is time they deserve a quick merciful death.
I certenly don't agree with factory farming and avoid them whenever possible.

However if you choose to not eat meat I have no problem with that, infact more power to you... we all walk as we see fit.

wa:do

 

[Druidus]

PW, that's where I don't understand your side. You say that you value all life as equal, yet your are willing to kill more lives unnecessarily.

 

[painted wolf]

Deer are going to eat leaves regardless of weather or not I eat the deer.

I'm constantly confused by someone who lives near the arctic circle complaining about meat eating and the Religious views of the Natives who live there.

Just try to grow your own food for a year rather than get heavily pesticide covered, nitrate fertilizer filled, mass produced plant food. You cant.:banghead3
The factory farming epidemic includes plant life. The Gulf Coast Dead Zone is the direct result of massive plant crop farming and the wonton use of chemicals that is nessisary to keep this unhealthy habit going.

And again how do I justify telling Selu that she is more worthy of death than Awi? How is Selu's life worth less than his? How is her life worth less than mine?
How do I turn down Awi's gift, such gifts are sacred and more special than any other.

you say you speak with the souls of the trees, but you don't give them the dignaty of equality.:149:

 

[Druidus]

PW, I'm not complaining about anyone else's dietary or religious choices. Believe what you want, eat want you want, that's your choice.

And again how do I justify telling Selu that she is more worthy of death than Awi? How is Selu's life worth less than his? How is her life worth less than mine?
How do I turn down Awi's gift, such gifts are sacred and more special than any other.

? But Awi is not bred into numbers in the billions causing many more billions of deaths to Selu. To me, I could only justify myself by causing the least amount of deaths possible, which is to be vegan. Less plants die if I eat only plants anyway, so I'm watching out for both Selu and Awi.

I think we can just leave it at the simple fact that we don't understand each other's viewpoints.

 

[Green Gaia]

I'm constantly confused by someone who lives near the arctic circle complaining about meat eating and the Religious views of the Natives who live there.

Isn't the diet of the native peoples of the Arctic is close to or at 100% meat and raw? And among these same people it is still largely that way today in this area, is it not? (I'm just trying to remember something I read a long time ago.)

 

[painted wolf]

closeish and not nessisarily raw... in the spring/sumer there is an increase in plant life and thus in the avalibility of it as food. Most of year it is too cold and with too little sun to support any significant plantlife. Certenly not any significant crops.
Many meats were thought best when raw, such as whale blubber and other tasty bits like eyeballs.

Druidus you missed my origional pont that I DO NOT agree with FACTORY FARMING of any kind. That includes your billions of plants and animals. :banghead3

trying to make me sound like an ogre because I eat meat and thus are responcible for countless lives is frustrating at the least. :bonk:

*ps: Druidus have you ever heard of Maidenhead?*
wa:do

 

[Druidus]

closeish and not nessisarily raw... in the spring/sumer there is an increase in plant life and thus in the avalibility of it as food. Most of year it is too cold and with too little sun to support any significant plantlife. Certenly not any significant crops.
Many meats were thought best when raw, such as whale blubber and other tasty bits like eyeballs.

Correct you are. However, today, the diet is more akin with that of southerners, as industry reaches even the frozen expanse. A century ago, life spans were dramatically less than they are today, with the addition of greater plant foods into their diets. In the Northwest Territories, the average life span was 25-30. They survived on mainly meat by eating the bile in the stomach of animals they killed (which was mainly plants), berries, and seaweeds.

Druidus you missed my origional pont that I DO NOT agree with FACTORY FARMING of any kind. That includes your billions of plants and animals.

Do you eat factory farmed produce? I wouldn't be opposed to eating animal-flesh, if the animal in question lived a full and happy life, and died of natural causes.

trying to make me sound like an ogre because I eat meat and thus are responcible for countless lives is frustrating at the least.

I disagree with that assessment (I certainly don't think you are an ogre).