Animal Rights

[michel]

I believe mother nature decided this when we evolved to the top of the food chain. To deny that deer are our food is to deny the natural order of things. To say that our food is equal or superior to us, well in what way are deer equal or superior to us?
As was pointed out to me in another thread, even Jesus thought humans were superior to animals. To deny this is to go against Jesus' teachings (I'm pointing this out to michel because he is Christian)

Whatever you say - and, of course I was being sarcastic -it just annoys me when people 'look down' on animals - I personally believe that all life has an intrinsic value; personally, I have to eat meat and vegetables, and I am forever aware of the life that was destoyed to nourish me. It is hard - as I said previously, give me a totally man made equivalent of food, and I would give up eating regular food that day.

 

[huajiro]

I believe mother nature decided this when we evolved to the top of the food chain. To deny that deer are our food is to deny the natural order of things. To say that our food is equal or superior to us, well in what way are deer equal or superior to us?

Man, I look around me every day......humans are not on the top of any chain.

Do you really need to eat deer, or is it a decision that you have made?

That is the big difference. If you live in animal skins, and have no other means of living (including eating vegetables like I myself do)....I doubt that you have a computer in your cave. My point is that we are not prehistoric man, they hunted animals because they were animals. I am sick of people talking about us being superior beings. Superior beings can analyze the situation and decide not to hurt a living being. Animals hunt....reasonable beings find ways to avoid hurting others.

 

[huajiro]

I have to eat meat and vegetables, and I am forever aware of the life that was destoyed to nourish me. It is hard - as I said previously, give me a totally man made equivalent of food, and I would give up eating regular food that day.

I eat fake meat every day. Soy and wheat gluten can replace it in anything. I am very healthy....not withering away.:jam:

 

[michel]

I eat fake meat every day. Soy and wheat gluten can replace it in anything. I am very healthy....not withering away.:jam:

I admire you for it - the trouble is that, for me, vegetation has life - it grows, reproduces and dies.

It may not have any consciousness (That we know of), but to me, the fauna is just as deserving of my respect.

 

[huajiro]

I admire you for it - the trouble is that, for me, vegetation has life - it grows, reproduces and dies.

It may not have any consciousness (That we know of), but to me, the fauna is just as deserving of my respect.

Baby steps Michel, baby steps

 

[Ryan2065]

Man, I look around me every day......humans are not on the top of any chain.

Do you understand the concept of a food chain? The higher up on the food chain you are, the less predators you have and the more animals you are able to kill and eat for food. The highest animal on the food chain would be the one with no predators. So if we are not the highest on the food chain, what animals are our predators?

Do you really need to eat deer, or is it a decision that you have made?

I need to eat something alive. Oddly enough mother nature made me so that the best combination of food for me is both animal and plants to stay alive. Therefore I do what mother nature tells me to.

That is the big difference. If you live in animal skins, and have no other means of living (including eating vegetables like I myself do)....I doubt that you have a computer in your cave. My point is that we are not prehistoric man, they hunted animals because they were animals. I am sick of people talking about us being superior beings. Superior beings can analyze the situation and decide not to hurt a living being. Animals hunt....reasonable beings find ways to avoid hurting others.

You are such a hypocrate. You say that you eat plants because you do not want to hurt any living beings. News flash huajiro...
Plants are living beings.

Maybe it is ok for you to live in this fantasy world where you are doing the environment a favor by not eating any animals, but I live in the real world bub. You say you are not hurting any living beings, BS. You are killing plants. And do not even think about saying that because they cannot feel it is alright for you to eat them. The simple fact is that you need to end a life to continue your own. So I eat animals and you eat plants. Don't look down on me and say that you are a superior being because you don't eat animals. If you were really all for not killing things you would end your life now. There is no other way to stop the killing.

 

[huajiro]

Do you understand the concept of a food chain? The higher up on the food chain you are, the less predators you have and the more animals you are able to kill and eat for food. The highest animal on the food chain would be the one with no predators. So if we are not the highest on the food chain, what animals are our predators?

Please don't talk to me like I am stupid, I don't do that, even though I do not agree with you. The animals that could be our predators are lions, tigers, bears, some snakes, wild boars, sharks, piranhas, some parasites, etc....we are not high and mighty.

I need to eat something alive. Oddly enough mother nature made me so that the best combination of food for me is both animal and plants to stay alive. Therefore I do what mother nature tells me to.

Mother nature.......does she really talk to you?

You are such a hypocrate. You say that you eat plants because you do not want to hurt any living beings. News flash huajiro...
Plants are living beings.

Maybe it is ok for you to live in this fantasy world where you are doing the environment a favor by not eating any animals, but I live in the real world bub. You say you are not hurting any living beings, BS. You are killing plants. And do not even think about saying that because they cannot feel it is alright for you to eat them. The simple fact is that you need to end a life to continue your own. So you eat animals and I eat plants. Don't look down on me and say that you are a superior being because you don't eat animals. If you were really all for not killing things you would end your life now. There is no other way to stop the killing.

Hmmm, you know, I would appreciate it if you would speak to me about things that I have said only. Don't bring everything on me, just because you see me as just another vegetarian, I promise to do the same with you. I do eat plants......do you know what plants I eat? How do you know that I don't eat only fruit? You and I have not discussed enough for you to attack me like this.

If you address only what I have said.....I will answer it.

 

[Ryan2065]

Please don't talk to me like I am stupid, I don't do that, even though I do not agree with you. The animals that could be our predators are lions, tigers, bears, some snakes, wild boars, sharks, piranhas, some parasites, etc....we are not high and mighty.

The animals that could be our predators? Yea, come to think of it someone could be eating a piece of turkey and it could get stuck in their throat and they could die...

Just because an animal CAN kill us doesn't mean that it is above us on the food chain. Pretty much any animal can kill any other animal. Ants can kill a very weak anteater, yet they are not above the anteater in the food chain. To say that we are not above these animals in the food chain just because they CAN kill us when we do not have our tools does not mean that they are. There is no animal on this earth that we cannot hunt safely, therefore there is no animal above us on the food chain.

Mother nature.......does she really talk to you?

No, but she gave me a brain. There is a reason I have teeth to both rip meat and chew vegetables.

Hmmm, you know, I would appreciate it if you would speak to me about things that I have said only. Don't bring everything on me, just because you see me as just another vegetarian, I promise to do the same with you. I do eat plants......do you know what plants I eat? How do you know that I don't eat only fruit? You and I have not discussed enough for you to attack me like this.

If you address only what I have said.....I will answer it.

Yea, you never said what kind of plants you eat... Sorry... Oh, wait...

I eat fake meat every day. Soy and wheat gluten can replace it in anything. I am very healthy....not withering away

Yea, sorry... You never made it clear if you eat only fruits or other things...

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I don't think animals should be abused in any way, and I think anyone who has abused an animal should be punished most severely. I don't think animal testing is right, unless we know for a fact that the testing would benefit sick humans, people who have cancer or other life-threatening diseases. Human life is more important than animal life. I support hunting completely. Dad used to love to turkey hunt. But I think that whatever you kill, you should use. Someone shouldn't hunt just to kill just as someone shouldn't abuse just to abuse.

I think we should treat animals well, but we don't have to go to extravagant measures to make sure animals are treated as well as humans.

I do believe humans should be treated as well as animals. For example (not meaning to change the subject, we may have to start a new thread) Terri Shiavo was starved to death by order of a judge. If someone in that same state of Florida were starving their dog, that same kind of liberal judge would be down on that person like a duck on a june bug.

 

[JAHLion]

I voted, "I support banning all types of hunting," because hunting is stupid, unless it is the only way you can eat, but you can easily farm.

I also voted, "I believe animals deserve the same rights as people," because animals are living things too, maybe they can't reason and use logic as we can, but does that mean we can hit them and beat them? Just because they don't have the thinking power we do, doesn't mean they don't have feelings.

I also voted, "We should not experiment on animals for any reason," because there's no need, there are many NATURAL medicines we can use without harming animals.

I also voted, "Those who abuse animals should go to prison," because it is wrong!

I also voted, "Humans should not eat meat or use animal products," because they aren't natural and there's no need to.

Can you tell staying natural is very important in I lifestyle?

Jah Love!

Lion

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I also voted, "Humans should not eat meat or use animal products," because they aren't natural and there's no need to.

Some people might just think chicken tastes good. Better than broccoli. I'm not to big on pork or fish, though...

 

[JAHLion]

Yes, ChristianGirl, I agree. I also like the taste of meat, I eat it. But I know I shouldn't. Right now, I'm just growing into a vegetarian, well more specificly I-tal. It's the all-natural diet of Rastafari.

Jah Bless.

Lion

 

[Ryan2065]

I also voted, "I believe animals deserve the same rights as people," because animals are living things too, maybe they can't reason and use logic as we can, but does that mean we can hit them and beat them? Just because they don't have the thinking power we do, doesn't mean they don't have feelings.

Plants are also living things. Why is it they deserve no rights?

I also voted, "We should not experiment on animals for any reason," because there's no need, there are many NATURAL medicines we can use without harming animals.

Really? What natural medicine cures cancer?

I also voted, "Humans should not eat meat or use animal products," because they aren't natural and there's no need to.

How is eating meat not natural?

 

[Valjean]

I don't think animals should be abused in any way, and I think anyone who has abused an animal should be punished most severely. I don't think animal testing is right, unless we know for a fact that the testing would benefit sick humans, people who have cancer or other life-threatening diseases. Human life is more important than animal life. I support hunting completely. Dad used to love to turkey hunt. But I think that whatever you kill, you should use. Someone shouldn't hunt just to kill just as someone shouldn't abuse just to abuse.

I think we should treat animals well, but we don't have to go to extravagant measures to make sure animals are treated as well as humans.

I do believe humans should be treated as well as animals. For example (not meaning to change the subject, we may have to start a new thread) Terri Shiavo was starved to death by order of a judge. If someone in that same state of Florida were starving their dog, that same kind of liberal judge would be down on that person like a duck on a june bug.

You have a rather narrow definition of "abuse" Christiangirl, if it does not include killing them. I'm guessing you're defining abuse solely as the infliction of physical pain. I also note that you're quite ready to put aside your moral objections if they become inconvenient or impede personal benefit ("sick humans").

"Human life is more important than animal life" -- Without quoting scripture, how do you defend this assertion?

"...but we don't have to go to extravagant measures..." Try to be original, christiangirl, and not quote 1864 anti-abolitionist editorials from southern papers.

In re: Terry Shiavo, she was already dead. She was blind, deaf and dumb. She was unconscious. She had no self-awareness. Her brain was atrophied. Her jaw was paralyzed. She could not swallow. She was like a headless body being kept alive by machines.

 

[huajiro]

The animals that could be our predators? Yea, come to think of it someone could be eating a piece of turkey and it could get stuck in their throat and they could die...

Just because an animal CAN kill us doesn't mean that it is above us on the food chain. Pretty much any animal can kill any other animal. Ants can kill a very weak anteater, yet they are not above the anteater in the food chain. To say that we are not above these animals in the food chain just because they CAN kill us when we do not have our tools does not mean that they are. There is no animal on this earth that we cannot hunt safely, therefore there is no animal above us on the food chain.

Just because you believe your interpretation of something, it doesn't make it fact. Let me put you in a cage with a tiger Mr. "top of the food chain", let's see how long you last. Most animals that could hunt us can't only because we have pretty much killed them off because they can kill us.

No, but she gave me a brain. There is a reason I have teeth to both rip meat and chew vegetables.

MEAT-EATER
has sharp claws
perspires through tongue, no skin pores
sharp front teeth for tearing
intestinal tract 3 times body length so rapidly decaying meat can pass out quickly
Strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
no flat molar teeth for grinding
HUMAN
no claws
perspires through skin pores
no sharp front teeth
intestinal tract 10-12 times body length
Stomach acid 20 times less strong than meat eaters
has flat rear molars

At least the chewing vegetables part is right

 

[Melody]

Personally, if your intention is to save animal's from starvation, I find providing additional food whilst neutering a significant portion of the males solves overpopulation. I find killing them an ineffective method of saving their lives.

We're coming at this from different perspectives. I'm not looking at this as "saving their lives". I'm looking at it as taking the role of the predator since we've eliminated the predator. You might make the argument that the predators usually culled out the old and sick, whereas the hunters go after the fittest of the species and I'd agree with you there.

I'd like to see hunting with the same standards as lobster fishermen in Maine. If they pull up a lobster over a certain length, they are required to throw it back. Perhaps hunters should not be allowed to shoot deer with a certain number of points on their rack since I'm told this means they are the most dominant and fittest of the species.

 

[michel]

Please don't talk to me like I am stupid, I don't do that, even though I do not agree with you. The animals that could be our predators are lions, tigers, bears, some snakes, wild boars, sharks, piranhas, some parasites, etc....we are not high and mighty.

Mother nature.......does she really talk to you?
Hmmm, you know, I would appreciate it if you would speak to me about things that I have said only. Don't bring everything on me, just because you see me as just another vegetarian, I promise to do the same with you. I do eat plants......do you know what plants I eat? How do you know that I don't eat only fruit? You and I have not discussed enough for you to attack me like this.

If you address only what I have said.....I will answer it.

huajiro, My friend,

without banging heads on walls and getting people uptight (which I hate doing), what do you eat, in the way of 'plants'? - oh, and what do you drink ?

 

[Ryan2065]

Just because you believe your interpretation of something, it doesn't make it fact. Let me put you in a cage with a tiger Mr. "top of the food chain", let's see how long you last. Most animals that could hunt us can't only because we have pretty much killed them off because they can kill us.

Wait... what? So you say that most animals who usually hunt us dont ONLY because we have killed them off? Good thing they are above us on the food chain. Just don't tell their anscetors that we killed that ;-)

Again. Just because in the past animals might have been our predators does not mean that TODAY we are not on top of the food chain. My claim was not that humans have always been on top, it was simply that currently we are on top of the food chain. And again, to say that in a given situation another animal could kill us is bogus. Jeeze, do I have to keep repeating myself?

MEAT-EATER
has sharp claws
perspires through tongue, no skin pores
sharp front teeth for tearing
intestinal tract 3 times body length so rapidly decaying meat can pass out quickly
Strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
no flat molar teeth for grinding
HUMAN
no claws
perspires through skin pores
no sharp front teeth
intestinal tract 10-12 times body length
Stomach acid 20 times less strong than meat eaters
has flat rear molars

At least the chewing vegetables part is right

Good job at comparing humans to animals that ONLY eat meat. That proves what? That humans can also eat veggies. Really it proves nothing more.

Check out this website... It uses sources and scientific facts...
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-1a.shtml
Note, to save space I won't quote all the evidance against your claims because there is so much. I will only offer the "headlines" so to speak. If you want the hard facts go to this site and use the find feature of your browser to find whatever section you need.

Now I will address your claims. First about humans having no claws.

The claim that meat cannot be a natural food for humans because we lack claws ignores the following:

Simple tool-based technology part of human evolutionary adaptation...

Powerful synergism of versatile human behavior patterns...

Special tree-climbing adaptations lacking in humans.

Versatility of the human hand.

Stone tools compensate for lesser human physical capabilities via intelligence.

Perspires through skin pores... Showing we don't need to.

Salivary Glands and Saliva

McArdle [1996, p. 174] reports that our salivary glands "indicate that we could be omnivores." Tanner [1981] reports that humans and the great apes share a class of proteins known as Pb and PPb in the saliva. These proteins help protect tooth enamel from decay due to carbohydrates and/or coarse plant foods in the diet. The presence of these proteins may be an artifact of past evolution, as the diet of humans is significantly different from that of the great apes. It may also reflect the status of humans as, figuratively, "eat nearly anything" omnivores/faunivores.

No sharp front teeth.

Teeth

McArdle [1996, p. 174] reports that the best evidence humans are omnivores comes from the teeth:

Stomach acid

They make the interesting observation that [Young and Pellett 1994, p. 1210S]:



In general, the digestibility of vegetable proteins in their natural form is lower than that of animal proteins...

Molars

In archeological sites, broken human molars are most often confused with broken premolars and molars of pigs, a classic omnivore. On the other hand, some herbivores have well-developed incisors that are often mistaken for those of human teeth when found in archeological excavations.

The subtitle that this paper does not address is "intestinal tract" but would you agree that if we find this in omnivores (animals that eat both meat and plants) then we could agree that it can be charactericts of omnivores? (I still love your argument... You know, the one that says humans do not have the anatonmy of carnivores therefore they are not omnivores.)

Intestinal tract (using http://biology.about.com/library/organs/bldigestlargeint.htm )

Omnivores like pigs and humans have a substantial large intestine, but nothing like that seen in herbivores. Finally, carnivores such as dogs and cats have a simple and small large intestine.

 

[michel]

Ah well, I have learned something new today; I remember my Mum telling me that the appendix was the vestiges of the time when man was a herbivore; that it was now a defuct remnant of an organ the use for which had disappeared over the years.


I was checking, and came on this incredibly amusing and informative text on the appendix http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i1/appendix.asp

 

[Druidus]

Alrighty then. To quote myself (and http://www.vegsource.com/how_to_win.htm ):

World Hunger

Number of people worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million
Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 60 million
Human beings in America: 243 million
Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by people: 20
Percentage of corn grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 80
Percentage of oats grown in the U.S. eaten by livestock: 95
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 99
How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20,000
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165
Percentage of U.S. farmland devoted to beef production: 56
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce a pound of beef: 16



[size=+2]Environment[/size]

Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect
Primary cause of greenhouse effect: carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels
Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat free diet: 50 times more.
Percentage of U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75
Percentage of U.S. topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85
Number of acres of U.S. forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million
Amount of meat U.S. imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: 200 million pounds.
Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras and Panama: less than eaten by average U.S. house cat.
Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pound hamburger: 55 sq ft.
Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 per year.
Also cattle contribute to global warming by being one of the biggest sources of carbon dioxide and methane gases.



[size=+2]Cancer[/size]
Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat 4 times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times.
For women who eat eggs daily vs. less than once a week: 3 times
Increased risk of fatal ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs. less than once a week: 3 times.
Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who eat meat daily vs. sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times.



[size=+2]Natural Resources[/size]

Use of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: Livestock portion
Amount of water used in production of the average steer: sufficient to float a destroyer.
Gallons to produce a pound of wheat: 25
Gallons to produce a pound of meat: 2,500
Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry not subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer: $35 a pound.
Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak if water was no longer subsidized: $89
Years the world's known oil reserves would last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13
Years they would last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260.
Barrels of oil imported into the U.S. daily: 6.8 million.
Percentage of fossil fuel returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5
Percentage from least efficient plant food: 32.8
Percentage of raw materials consumed by U.S. to produce present meat-centered diet: 33

Ethics

Number of animals killed for meat per hour in the U.S.: 660,000
Occupation with highest turnover rate in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker
Occupation with highest rate of on-the-job-injury in U.S.: slaughterhouse worker

Pesticides

Common belief: U.S. Department of Agriculture protects our health through meat inspection
Reality: fewer than 1 out of every 250,000 slaughtered animals is tested for toxic chemical residues
Percentage of U.S. mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 99
Percentage of U.S. vegetarian mother's milk containing significant levels of DDT: 8
Contamination of breast milk, due to chlorinated hydrocarbon pesticides in animal products, found in meat-eating mothers vs. non-meat eating mothers: 35 times higher
Amount of Dieldrin ingested by the average breast-fed American infant: 9 times the permissible level

Antibiotics

Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55
Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13
Percentage resistant in 1988: 91
Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban
Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support

Physical

Only man to win Ironman Triathalon more than twice: Dave Scott (6 time winner)
Food choices of Dave Scott: Vegetarian
World record holder for 24 triathalon (Swim 4.8 miles, Cycle 185 miles, Run 52.5): Sixto Linares
Food choices of Sixto Linares: Strict vegetarian
Athlete who most totally dominated Olympic sport in track and field history: Edwin Moses (undefeated in 8 years, 400 meter hurdles)
Food choices of Edwin Moses: Vegetarian
Other notable vegetarian athletes:

• Stan Price (World record-bench press)
• Robert Sweetgall (World's premier ultra-distance walker)
• Paavo Nurmi (20 World's records in distance running, 9 Olympic medals)
• Bill Pickering (World record - swimming English Channel)
• Murray Rose (World records - 400 and 1500 meter freestyles)
• Andreas Cahling (Winner - Mr. International body-building championships)
• Roy Hilligan (Winner - Mr. America body-building championships)
• Pierro Verot (World's record for downhill endurance skiing)
• Estelle Gray and Cheryl Marek (World's record for cross- country tandem cycling)
• James and Johnathon deDonato (World's record for distance butterfly stroke swimming)
• Ridgely Abele (Winner of 8 national championships in Karate, including U.S. Karate Association World Championships)