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Angels and Demons

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Scott1, Jan 15, 2005.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    In The Bible As Book - The Hebrew Bible and the Judaean Desert Discoveries contains a very interesting contribution by Philip S. Alexander titled
    The Enochic Literature And The Bible: Intertextuality And Its Implication
    in which he writes, in part:
    Refering to the topic at hand, he continues ...
    Enoch is fascinating on a number of levels. For those looking for the millieu that gave rise to the Jesus myth/legend, verses such as the following are at least intriguing:
     
  2. DianeVera

    DianeVera Member

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    What do you, as a Christian, think of the Book of Enoch?
     
  3. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I think it is important background for the NT, and that it is spiritually profitable for reading and study. In fact, I think it and the other Old Testament pseudapigrapha should be required reading for any seminarian.
     
  4. DianeVera

    DianeVera Member

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    What do you think of the forbidden-knowledge theme of the Book of Enoch? What do you think of the idea that Azazel and the Nephilim introduced various technolgies?
     
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  5. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    That's a complicated question, and I had to think a bit on how best to answer, especially since I suspect it ties closely to theistic Satanism.

    My answer is to first point out that the ancient Hebrews were henotheistic, that is, YHWH is the God that made all the other gods (heck the Pentateuch's wording presupposes this). The angels, basically, are the other deities, and this tendency is maintained in the NT (e.g. Paul's reference to the alter of demons, which is basically a fallen angel in the tradition of Enoch).

    With the henotheism in mind, this theme is found in near-eastern stories, but in them, the gods are fickle. For instance, they may give the knowledge but force immortality. In Genesis, though, God has denied people knowledge at the start, but they have immortality. The difference is striking, and I think part of it is a Hebrew commentary on the other gods.

    Now, a theme that carries through in both sections is that humans are made like God/the gods. In Genesis, we have the image of God, but I can't remember the terminology in the others. It's been a while since I read some of them. I understand this as the capacity to be like God, but in the other mythologies, it is not yet complete, and the gods pull some stunt and humanity is denied.

    In Genesis, we see something similar, where the impartation of knowledge will open the eyes of humanity and they will be like God. However, God has forbidden this knowledge, and the accounts never offer any indication the status of this knowledge as verboten is permanent. That is assumed, and I think, wrongly assumed.

    If, as I suspect it is, Genesis' creation account was a large part a compare and contrast account, then we can expect an explanation in God's character. The explanation I come up with is that we weren't ready. The knowledge early, before we were mature enough, is destructive, like the "We were so busy thinking of if we could do a thing, we didn't stop to think if we should" routine.

    If I take the preceding (and a long introduction, but necessary for a complex problem), we find ourselves with an explanation for the passages. The serpent (symbolic of the other being who gave the knowledge prematurely, Satan in Christian tradition) would be cognate to them. Their gift, given prematurely, sparks selfishness, killing, and brutality, which further separates man from God (resulting in the Flood...another instance of compare and contrast).

    The gift of premature knowledge also reaped destruction in the enviroment (the Flood ultimately), as the humans in exercising knowledge that they were not yet ready for wiped out entire populations of animals and destroyed the plant life.

    So, I would say that it is an issue of knowledge we were not yet prepared for, not that we were absolutely forbidden to have. Sorry for the length. You can always reciprocate by putting it in a different context, however the theistic Satanist may interpret it :).
     
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  6. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I might also add that I view I Enoch as an apocalyptic commentary on the Jewish political situation under the Greeks, using Genesis as a mold :). I don't think it's a coincidence that a culture subjected to persecution simply for not being Hellenistic is going to cast those values in symbolism. Hellenistic philosophy, religion, and warfar could all well be symbolized as "knowledge."

    Thus, while I see it as spiritually beneficial, it is very much a book of its day :).
     
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  7. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    carrdero: So there are angels?



    GOD: No, there are helpers. If YOU want to get in to a discussion about angels, it would BE easier for YOU to disconnect YOURself from the way they have been depicted by artists and writers historically. It would also BE wise to UNDERSTAND that angels (helpers) are not confined to any ONE realm. YOU have angels in the physical realm willing to work, willing to help, willing to do good work. Some are just REMEMBERING this. Some have not been seen but still bestow blessings on those in need. Look around you. If you are patient and receptive, you may notice them or BE touched by ONE. They are not to BE worshipped; they are entities like YOU or anyone else.



    carrdero: Do all of us have the potential to be angels in this lifetime?



    GOD: Potential? Yes. Desire? No. That is fine, though. It may not BE YOUR choice.



    Hello It's Me: An Interveiw With GOD

    Chapter:Life After Death or Living On A Angel's Wages

    Page: 68

     
  8. Deep_MindQuest

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    http://www.hissheep.org/hebrew/giants_and_evil_spirits.html Fallen Angels, Giants and Evil Spirits This mystery of the giants and evil spirits was understood hundreds of years before the time of Christ but it was lost in the 4th century when a bishop of the Catholic Church changed the knowledge that had existed and been known for many centuries. That knowledge and teaching was that in ancient times, fallen angels took upon themselves the form of human flesh. These fallen angels went into the daughters of men and they produced a race of giants upon the earth. When those giants died, the spirits of those men, being a combination of the seed of man and the seed of fallen angels, being not fully man or fallen angel became the demons that we have to deal with today.
     
  9. Deep_MindQuest

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    Demons are disembodied spirits that are at work virtually everywhere in the world today. They are evil in nature, and are obedient to Satan, their ruler. In the Bible they are also known as "evil spirits" or "unclean spirits".

    There are a number of theories about their origin, Many believe they are fallen angels who fell when Satan, formerly Lucifer, rebelled against the Lord God in heaven. This theory has the problem that demons seem to be earth-bound spirits that walk, and cannot fly, unlike angels. There are fallen angels, who presently occupy positions of influence and authority over the earth in a kind of Satanic hierarchy, and are referred to in the Bible as "principalities and powers" (Ephesians 6:12). Earth bound demons are the "foot soldiers" in Satan's kingdom, and they are the ones we deal with on a day to day basis, whether we realise it or not. demons are the spirits of former inhabitants of earth who rebelled against God - the results of the offspring of fallen angels and women in the days before the flood (see Genesis 6)
     
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  10. Deep_MindQuest

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    both jubilees and Enoch agree demons ! Jubilees 10:5-10 And Thou knowest how The Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of thy servant, my God; for these are malignant, and 6 created in order to destroy. And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for Thou alone canst exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous 7-8 from henceforth and for evermore.' And the Lord our God bade us to bind all. And the chief of the spirits, Mastema, came and said: 'Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them harken to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men.' 9 And He said: Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the 10 place of condemnation.'





    Enoch 15:8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon 9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the Holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; 10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.]
     
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