• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

... and if you're wrong?

Riders

Well-Known Member
If Christians are right that Jesus is the same as God then everytime we non Jesus believers worship God we are also worshipping Jesus.So why should Christians be so zealous to convert us to christianity.?

Jesus is just ano
ther name or God, if I call on God and believe in God,that should be the only requirement Christians have for salvation.When the rich man asked Jesus how to be saved he went over the 10 commandments. To me if you live by that then your living for God. If you worship Jesus IMO its replacing God with Jesus. It's idolatry but still Jesus is another term for God.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Well stay safe then old boy.

Enjoy your freedoms while it is day.

Until the night comes when no man can work.

And congratulations on the 18,000 posts.

Peaceful Sabbath. ;)
And all the best to you. :)
Freedoms? I always knew that I would be subjected to gravity. Freedom is all about our inner selves, maybe?

And thank you for the congrats..... I didn't notice until you told me. :)
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
If Christians are right that Jesus is the same as God then everytime we non Jesus believers worship God we are also worshipping Jesus.So why should Christians be so zealous to convert us to christianity.?

(If) Jesus is just another name or God, if I call on God and believe in God, that should be the only requirement Christians have for salvation.When the rich man asked Jesus how to be saved he went over the 10 commandments. To me if you live by that then your living for God. If you worship Jesus IMO its replacing God with Jesus. It's idolatry but still Jesus is another term for God.

The Christian writings explain this distinction.

It describes the Law as a curse. In other words, as long as you try to measure up to God's standard, you will always always fail, and the harder you try, the more strongly (see also Pharisees) you distance yourself from God. God believes this about us.


This goes for atheists too. They claim they do not live under the Law. Oh? Then why do half of them obsess over whether they are recycling enough? Why do they worry about whether they are racist, sexist, xenophobic, or homophobic (a majority of atheists appear to be liberals, but I doubt it's all of them)? Why do they virtue signal? It's because they too are condemned under the Law.

The only way out of the Law is Grace. To love others as yourself, and accept love you don't necessarily deserve.

Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Creator are all God. And no, it's not important to believe in the Trinity either as far as I know, but the Law doesn't work. A personal relationship with God and to have Grace. This is what is needed.


We fail to live up to the Law to make us understand we need God (Jesus).
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
What if the small handful of men on whose backs rest the entirety of Christianity were actually liars?

View attachment 43145

It seems to me that this is greater issue for Christianity that most other religions as Christianity rests almost entirely on the back of a previous code of law that directly commands not to have the very belief that Christianity requires. Unlike Islam which denies that there was a previous code of law different to itself, Christianity says, yes, there were laws that prohibited Christian belief, but those were changed.

And while the Jewish people point to an entire generation of ancestors who received this code of Law via Divine revelation, the Christian must rely on a handful of individuals who are said to have witnessed some miracles which convinced them that this original law had been uprooted.

I've sometimes seen Pascal's wager given as an argument to believe in Christianity. I may be biased, but it seems to me that based on Pastor Noel's words wagering on Christianity is already a pretty heavy risk.

Thoughts?

Pascal's wager is an assumption that you can fool a god. It is also an assumption that you not only picked the correct god, but picked the correct version of the religion. It also assumes you lose nothing by believing a potential lie and living yur life accordingly. It also assumes you gain nothing by not believing.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
The Christian writings explain this distinction.

It describes the Law as a curse. In other words, as long as you try to measure up to God's standard, you will always always fail, and the harder you try, the more strongly (see also Pharisees) you distance yourself from God. God believes this about us.


Who are you to judge the lives of Atheists. Recycling has nothing to do with the law of the old testament. I am sure there are many atheists happy with their lives and don't give a snit about the biblical laws. You are way of topic.

But sense you brought the topic up of folks who live legalistic lives trying to serve God, I have a news flash for you! Many many Christians including those who still go by old timey dress codes and diet codes of the old testament such as 7th day Adventists and Pentecostals and some Baptists who are very legalistic, have accepted Jesus and his forgiveness and yet are a slave to the laws.Tobecontinued

The only way out of the Law is Grace. To love others as yourself, and accept love you don't necessarily deserve.

Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Creator are all God. And no, it's not important to believe in the Trinity either as far as I know, but the Law doesn't work. A personal relationship with God and to have Grace. This is what is needed.


We fail to live up to the Law to make us understand we need God (Jesus).
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Sorry my computer isn't responding to Samanthas reply so I am responding to Samantha's reply.Who are you to judge the live of Atheists and if they are living by the law? There are many happy atheists happy in their walk.

Sense you say everyone outside of he Christian church is living legalistically by the law I have a news flash for you. There are many Christian churches including pentecostals Nondenoms and Baptists who still go by the old timey dress codes which is a part of the law and are very legalistic in their lives even though they accepted forgiveness from Christ.

Many like the Seventh Day adventist accept forgiveness from Jesus and still live by the old law for their diet nd the Sabbath. Many combination Jewish Christian churches go by the law too.Theres a lot of legalistic Christian churches who live by the old testament.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
Sorry my computer isn't responding to Samanthas reply so I am responding to Samantha's reply.Who are you to judge the live of Atheists and if they are living by the law? There are many happy atheists happy in their walk.

Sense you say everyone outside of he Christian church is living legalistically by the law I have a news flash for you. There are many Christian churches including pentecostals Nondenoms and Baptists who still go by the old timey dress codes which is a part of the law and are very legalistic in their lives even though they accepted forgiveness from Christ.

Many like the Seventh Day adventist accept forgiveness from Jesus and still live by the old law for their diet nd the Sabbath. Many combination Jewish Christian churches go by the law too.Theres a lot of legalistic Christian churches who live by the old testament.


In reality there are a lot of drug addicts who spend one hundred percent of their time being high and stealing and prostituting to get drugs, they aren't in church, are they living by the law too? There are plenty of non Christians who don't live by the law.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
There are only two people on the forum who thinks that there's anything you wrote here that true. You and the guy who gave you the thumbs up.

Thank you for sharing, but that is not a refutation from logic, scripture, the original Hebrew meanings, etc.

There are only a few people on this forum who believe your mythmaking about obvious prophecies of King Messiah Jesus. However, I'm delighted to be patient in helping you learn more, to upgrade your life.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@Tumah, I have now read all 4 Gospels and I have several points regarding this discussion. Please note, I'm typing from my phone, so, please forgive the lack of quotes from previous posts in the thread.

@viole and @oldbadger , you both were asking {paraphrasing} "How would a person differentiate between G-d and Satan in the story told in the Christian Gospels?"

Well, the Gospels are an example of what a Jewish person shouldn't do. The best examples are when they encourage a person to violate the 10 commandments. In John chapter 2 (and elsewhere) the reader is told to worship Father and Son. This violates the commandment prohibiting worship of Other Gods. Also in Mark chapter 3, the reader is encouraged to dishonor their birth parents. This is a violation of the commandment to honor them. After having read all four Gospels, and it is clear to me that if the story is true, it describes a plot to lead people astray.

@KenS and @Eyes to See , you both were discussing a "lack of belief" as the problem inherent in Jewish people past and present. The claim was {paraphrasing}: "The Jewish nation saw the plagues and the miracles in the desert in the exodus story, but still did not believe or have faith... they're a very stubborn people".

My friends, you have this completely backwards. If you look at Deuteronomy chapter 32, you'll see that the problem of the Jewish people who sinned in the desert was not lack of belief, it was too much belief. Moses was rebuking them for following other/strange gods. This rebuke is repeated over and over in the later scriptures. This is the opposite of a lack of belief. A healthy dose of skepticism would have prevented people from worshipping a golden calf or any other idol. Worshipping an idol is the result of unhealthy faith, too much belief. Not too little.

@Estro Felino, Viole gave an example of unconditional mercy for immigrants into a country, and if I understood, you claimed this was equivalent to what was being offered to readers in the Christian Gospels. I respectfully disagree.

What I see in the Gospels is someone offering salvation and absolution on condition that their prayers get rerouted through a third party. It's not unconditional at all. If it were, everyone would be saved not just those who become disciples.

Please consider how it would feel if you or someone you loved was sick when the NT was compiled. There's no modern medicine, and you are offered freedom from this disease on one condition: worship Father+Son, both. The temptation would be overwhelming for many. It's cruel to use death and disease or health and eternal life as a tool like this. That's why universal health care has been adopted by so many modern countries. The Gospels do not offer health unconditionally. It comes with a price.

However, I do agree with what you and @PureX were saying that what people chose to do is more important than the doctrines in the text. And if Father+Son=God to you in your heart, then these two ideals together are common ground for developing and maintaining peace and understanding between Judaism and Believers in Christ.

Sincerely,
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
My friends, you have this completely backwards. If you look at Deuteronomy chapter 32, you'll see that the problem of the Jewish people who sinned in the desert was not lack of belief, it was too much belief. Moses was rebuking them for following other/strange gods. This rebuke is repeated over and over in the later scriptures. This is the opposite of a lack of belief. A healthy dose of skepticism would have prevented people from worshipping a golden calf or any other idol. Worshipping an idol is the result of unhealthy faith, too much belief. Not too little.

Why do people need an idol to represent God? Is it really because they have "too much" belief in him?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Why do people need an idol to represent God? Is it really because they have "too much" belief in him?
It's not too much belief in him, it's too much belief in other gods, nature, etc... otherwise the idols are deemed powerless.

Skepticism is the opposite of Faith. Skepticism is healthy. Too much faith is dangerous and can be corrupted and used to manipulate people.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
It's not too much belief in him, it's too much belief in other gods, nature, etc... otherwise the idols are deemed powerless.

Skepticism is the opposite of Faith. Skepticism is healthy. Too much faith is dangerous and can be corrupted and used to manipulate people.

I am going to use your logic here. Let us say a child has a loving, honest, faithful, and loyal father. And he never ever backed out on his word. He provided all that his son needed materially, physically, emotionally, spiritually. Everyone knew him as a man of his word. They would say, "If he gives you his word, it is as good as done."

Now the son is in trouble, and the father says, don't worry son, I'll take care of it. Is it really a show of "too much" belief for that child to be skeptical of his father? And instead look to others who were devious, didn't keep their word, were liars, criminals, and took advantage of others?

Is the child really a good son? Does he really show love to his father?

I am wondering what happened to common sense.
 

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
After having read all four Gospels, and it is clear to me that if the story is true, it describes a plot to lead people astray.
Which seems to me like an excellent reason to suggest that traditional Jews ignore non-Jewish proselytizers, stay out of the Christian Scriptures, keep calm, and continue doing whatever it is they think they're doing.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I think most people need some kind of representational mechanism to help them comprehend the inexplicable mystery that "God" is to we humans.

I agree that people of little or no faith have to have an idol to represent what they worship.

That was the point of the question, to help the person to reason the thing out logically. Idols are not made because of "too much belief." It is because of a lack of faith.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
@Estro Felino, Viole gave an example of unconditional mercy for immigrants into a country, and if I understood, you claimed this was equivalent to what was being offered to readers in the Christian Gospels. I respectfully disagree.

What I see in the Gospels is someone offering salvation and absolution on condition that their prayers get rerouted through a third party. It's not unconditional at all. If it were, everyone would be saved not just those who become disciples.

Please consider how it would feel if you or someone you loved was sick when the NT was compiled. There's no modern medicine, and you are offered freedom from this disease on one condition: worship Father+Son, both. The temptation would be overwhelming for many. It's cruel to use death and disease or health and eternal life as a tool like this. That's why universal health care has been adopted by so many modern countries. The Gospels do not offer health unconditionally. It comes with a price.

However, I do agree with what you and @PureX were saying that what people chose to do is more important than the doctrines in the text. And if Father+Son=God to you in your heart, then these two ideals together are common ground for developing and maintaining peace and understanding between Judaism and Believers in Christ.

Sincerely,
Well...I am a Pelagian...a believer in a Christianity that saves all good people, regardless of their religion
So...
:)
 
Top