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And for every people there is a guide (13:7)

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Language has rules we are use to so that we understand one another.

13:7 although linguistically is open for interpretation the following proves there is one possible interpretation that is rational by language rules and contextualization.

Linguistic rules


The first thing to be said, is that, there is two more meanings I can think of then that every people have a guide. One is that Mohammad (s) is for every people a guide. And another is that were will one day be for every people a guide.

However, these two are not rational to hold, since if those were intended, a more clearer way of saying for example, if Mohammad (s) was intended as the guide for every people, all that needed to be said, was "and for every people the guide". And "al" would have made it clear that Mohammad (s) was intended to be the Guide for every people.

If it referred to a guide in the future for all people, all that needed to be said, was "and there will be...." and it would be clear.

Language rules is that when a phrase can be said much clearer in a way that is not the impression given by the phrase, you must not assume the other meanings but rather go with what the first impression is. Unless the first impression is impossible or context of other words imply it's not what is meant, you must go with the first impression.

After all this is how we engage the verse with seal of Prophets, or all sorts of meanings alternative to the first impression can be made up.

Now that this has been said, there is further reasons that it means for every people there is a guide.

Context is about miracles and proofs.

The context is about why not a proof or sign brought, and so the topic being on that, it makes sense more in line to say, you are only a warner while before you and after you there is always a guide that can perform such miracles.

This more in line with the context, and talking about Mohammad (s) being a guide for all people is off-topic. Although it's true, and same with there being a guide for every people at the end times who they will accept (the Mahdi) are both off-topic.

Rather, in line with the "You are only a warner" is to say furthermore, which is the meaning of the and in this context, furthermore it is the case that for every people there is a guide who can brings such signs and who the signs prove their case.

Theme of "you are only a warner"

Aside from that, Quran has a style when saying "You are only a warner", and it replies with facts that compliment that. Mohammad (s) being sent for the whole world or the Mahdi (a) being a guide at end times, are both, again, not complimenting this at all. The "and" is suppose to be said in the spirit of it, it has the nature of the "furthermore" and not "as well it is the case that". It's obvious if you see all the verses and keep them in mind of "you are only a warner", the next phrase after the "Wa" is always in spirit of furthermore type "and".

The witness, the leader we be called with theme

Aside from that, there is a whole theme in Quran about every people having a witness and another verse says the witness is a leader, by saying "the day every human is called with their leader". There is a verse that says the day every people come with a driver and a witness as well.

So in spirit of that, this is saying the witness is the Guide of the people of his time, and compliments it.

Authentic hadith verifies the meaning.


So we have these 4 reasons to see that. But aside from that there is hassan or Sahih sunnni hadith that it means that the guide is a man from Bani-Hashim. The excuses that this refers to Mohammad (s) is again denied by the way language works, rather, it means, there will be for every people a guide from bani-hashim.

So we have hadith that verifies the meaning as well.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Language has rules we are use to so that we understand one another.

13:7 although linguistically is open for interpretation the following proves there is one possible interpretation that is rational by language rules and contextualization.

Linguistic rules


The first thing to be said, is that, there is two more meanings I can think of then that every people have a guide. One is that Mohammad (s) is for every people a guide. And another is that were will one day be for every people a guide.

However, these two are not rational to hold, since if those were intended, a more clearer way of saying for example, if Mohammad (s) was intended as the guide for every people, all that needed to be said, was "and for every people the guide". And "al" would have made it clear that Mohammad (s) was intended to be the Guide for every people.

If it referred to a guide in the future for all people, all that needed to be said, was "and there will be...." and it would be clear.

Language rules is that when a phrase can be said much clearer in a way that is not the impression given by the phrase, you must not assume the other meanings but rather go with what the first impression is. Unless the first impression is impossible or context of other words imply it's not what is meant, you must go with the first impression.

After all this is how we engage the verse with seal of Prophets, or all sorts of meanings alternative to the first impression can be made up.

Now that this has been said, there is further reasons that it means for every people there is a guide.

Context is about miracles and proofs.

The context is about why not a proof or sign brought, and so the topic being on that, it makes sense more in line to say, you are only a warner while before you and after you there is always a guide that can perform such miracles.

This more in line with the context, and talking about Mohammad (s) being a guide for all people is off-topic. Although it's true, and same with there being a guide for every people at the end times who they will accept (the Mahdi) are both off-topic.

Rather, in line with the "You are only a warner" is to say furthermore, which is the meaning of the and in this context, furthermore it is the case that for every people there is a guide who can brings such signs and who the signs prove their case.

Theme of "you are only a warner"

Aside from that, Quran has a style when saying "You are only a warner", and it replies with facts that compliment that. Mohammad (s) being sent for the whole world or the Mahdi (a) being a guide at end times, are both, again, not complimenting this at all. The "and" is suppose to be said in the spirit of it, it has the nature of the "furthermore" and not "as well it is the case that". It's obvious if you see all the verses and keep them in mind of "you are only a warner", the next phrase after the "Wa" is always in spirit of furthermore type "and".

The witness, the leader we be called with theme

Aside from that, there is a whole theme in Quran about every people having a witness and another verse says the witness is a leader, by saying "the day every human is called with their leader". There is a verse that says the day every people come with a driver and a witness as well.

So in spirit of that, this is saying the witness is the Guide of the people of his time, and compliments it.

Authentic hadith verifies the meaning.


So we have these 4 reasons to see that. But aside from that there is hassan or Sahih sunnni hadith that it means that the guide is a man from Bani-Hashim. The excuses that this refers to Mohammad (s) is again denied by the way language works, rather, it means, there will be for every people a guide from bani-hashim.

So we have hadith that verifies the meaning as well.
To summarise are you saying there is a guide for us western folk of our time?

If so who is it? And why don’t they demonstrate their signs before our great academics and intellectuals?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To summarise are you saying there is a guide for us western folk of our time?

If so who is it? And why don’t they demonstrate their signs before our great academics and intellectuals?

There is a Guide but he is hidden in this age. It's the 12th Successor of Mohammad (s), the last of the family of the reminder alive.

As to why God doesn't send with signs, there is a verse in Suratal Isra that explains, what prevented God in the past from sending signs in any moment in time and there is a whole theme to this.

When the first ones deny them and make their appearance difficult, then things get complicated real fast, and God to save destruction of the human race, stop sending with signs, but rather, as the verse shows yet there is for every a people a guide, a witness, a leader who can bring such signs... the difference is we have to pray that God guides us to him and allows him to meet us.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
There is a Guide but he is hidden in this age. It's the 12th Successor of Mohammad (s), the last of the family of the reminder alive.

As to why God doesn't send with signs, there is a verse in Suratal Isra that explains, what prevented God in the past from sending signs in any moment in time and there is a whole theme to this.

When the first ones deny them and make their appearance difficult, then things get complicated real fast, and God to save destruction of the human race, stop sending with signs, but rather, as the verse shows yet there is for every a people a guide, a witness, a leader who can bring such signs... the difference is we have to pray that God guides us to him and allows him to meet us.
So have you met the twelfth successor?
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Maybe, I can't prove if I did, and it's too shameful if I haven't, so leave it as maybe.
Why is it shameful if you haven’t. One should never be made to feel ashamed of the truth.

I’ve never met any 12th successor to Muhammad and I don’t feel ashamed about it
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why is it shameful if you haven’t.

For many reasons it would be. Among them, would be, that I'm of the probability of rejecting him as an evil sorcerer if he displays signs and too blind to make us of his warnings and words. Or that my nafs is not willing to accept the body he has, or how he looks or talks.....

After, all, it's always a huge trial to submit to a human of our times, as oppose to the past. Past is easy, because we can still pick and choose, and are free, the preference of the leader over ourselves and constant orders we obey and strive to fulfill his wishes... that's another type of submission, and that is the submission talked about in Quran, but is lost for majority in this age...….
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Or that I would run away from him too scared.... Or that Satan controls too much of what I believe for him to be able to convince me through miracles and signs and talking words of light.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Or that I would run away from him too scared.... Or that Satan controls too much of what I believe for him to be able to convince me through miracles and signs and talking words of light.
There is a non shameful possibility though, and that is that you have never met the 12th successor because there is no legitimate 12th successor capable of producing genuine miracles.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Language has rules we are use to so that we understand one another.

13:7 although linguistically is open for interpretation the following proves there is one possible interpretation that is rational by language rules and contextualization.

Linguistic rules


The first thing to be said, is that, there is two more meanings I can think of then that every people have a guide. One is that Mohammad (s) is for every people a guide. And another is that were will one day be for every people a guide.

However, these two are not rational to hold, since if those were intended, a more clearer way of saying for example, if Mohammad (s) was intended as the guide for every people, all that needed to be said, was "and for every people the guide". And "al" would have made it clear that Mohammad (s) was intended to be the Guide for every people.

If it referred to a guide in the future for all people, all that needed to be said, was "and there will be...." and it would be clear.

Language rules is that when a phrase can be said much clearer in a way that is not the impression given by the phrase, you must not assume the other meanings but rather go with what the first impression is. Unless the first impression is impossible or context of other words imply it's not what is meant, you must go with the first impression.

After all this is how we engage the verse with seal of Prophets, or all sorts of meanings alternative to the first impression can be made up.

Now that this has been said, there is further reasons that it means for every people there is a guide.

Context is about miracles and proofs.

The context is about why not a proof or sign brought, and so the topic being on that, it makes sense more in line to say, you are only a warner while before you and after you there is always a guide that can perform such miracles.

This more in line with the context, and talking about Mohammad (s) being a guide for all people is off-topic. Although it's true, and same with there being a guide for every people at the end times who they will accept (the Mahdi) are both off-topic.

Rather, in line with the "You are only a warner" is to say furthermore, which is the meaning of the and in this context, furthermore it is the case that for every people there is a guide who can brings such signs and who the signs prove their case.

Theme of "you are only a warner"

Aside from that, Quran has a style when saying "You are only a warner", and it replies with facts that compliment that. Mohammad (s) being sent for the whole world or the Mahdi (a) being a guide at end times, are both, again, not complimenting this at all. The "and" is suppose to be said in the spirit of it, it has the nature of the "furthermore" and not "as well it is the case that". It's obvious if you see all the verses and keep them in mind of "you are only a warner", the next phrase after the "Wa" is always in spirit of furthermore type "and".

The witness, the leader we be called with theme

Aside from that, there is a whole theme in Quran about every people having a witness and another verse says the witness is a leader, by saying "the day every human is called with their leader". There is a verse that says the day every people come with a driver and a witness as well.

So in spirit of that, this is saying the witness is the Guide of the people of his time, and compliments it.

Authentic hadith verifies the meaning.


So we have these 4 reasons to see that. But aside from that there is hassan or Sahih sunnni hadith that it means that the guide is a man from Bani-Hashim. The excuses that this refers to Mohammad (s) is again denied by the way language works, rather, it means, there will be for every people a guide from bani-hashim.

So we have hadith that verifies the meaning as well.

39:23. Book of God is the guide for everyone:

"Allah has sent down the best statement: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray - for him there is no guide."
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
There is a Guide but he is hidden in this age. It's the 12th Successor of Mohammad (s), the last of the family of the reminder alive.

As to why God doesn't send with signs, there is a verse in Suratal Isra that explains, what prevented God in the past from sending signs in any moment in time and there is a whole theme to this.

When the first ones deny them and make their appearance difficult, then things get complicated real fast, and God to save destruction of the human race, stop sending with signs, but rather, as the verse shows yet there is for every a people a guide, a witness, a leader who can bring such signs... the difference is we have to pray that God guides us to him and allows him to meet us.
The Christian's believe Jesus is alive. Why Jesus cannot be a guide? When there is already a guide, what is the need for another hidden guide?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
39:23. Book of God is the guide for everyone:

"Allah has sent down the best statement: a consistent Book wherein is reiteration. The skins shiver therefrom of those who fear their Lord; then their skins and their hearts relax at the remembrance of Allah. That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whom He wills. And one whom Allah leaves astray - for him there is no guide."

The reminder and leader are one, that is what Suratal Bayana shows by calling Mohammad (s) the clear proof, and other verses calling Mohammad (s) a reminder or the reminder.

The book is a complete guidance but with the family of the reminder. The Quran also tells us to obey those who possess the authority from us (4:59) and so we can see there will be one holder of the Authority in all times by this verse.

That said, the topic in this verse is about Mohammad (s) only being a warner, and that is said with respect to signs in form of miracles, for every people there is a guide implies there is always one who can perform such miracles and who the miracles prove the authority of.

It being about Quran is linguistically possible, just as it's linguistically possible it's about Mohammad (s) being a guide for all people, but like I said, those are not really what we should assume it to mean by normal language rules and by the contextualization of Quran.

This about the leaders of guidance who perform miracles and who miracles prove - and the authentic sunni and Shiite hadiths all confirm this meaning.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Christian's believe Jesus is alive. Why Jesus cannot be a guide? When there is already a guide, what is the need for another hidden guide?

God always put's a remaining one from each household of the reminder or even more then one.....

Enoch/Idris (a) was emphasized to be raised and no more on earth, for a reason.

Elyas (a) and Isa (a) are both alive and both from the household of the revelation before Mohammad's (a) family. The hadiths show when Jesus (a) will be told to lead prayers over the Mahdi (a), he will refuse and say God has made from them leaders and grace some of them over others which is an allusion to verses in the 4th surah about the grace of God on the family of Mohammad (s).

The Mahdi (a) will have the support of all the remaining ones from the families of the reminders of the past but ultimately, the Quran has made Mohammad (s) and his family (a) the means to God (42:23, 25:57).

Elyas (a) and Jesus (a) and their holy ones associated with them all the way back to Moses (a), were the family of the reminder before the family of the reminder of our time.....

But what needs to happen is people have to come to love the family of the reminder of their time so it makes sense the final guide who will lead the world to justice and peace, is from the family of Mohmmad (s) and this is what the hadiths confirm.
 
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