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Ancient Egyptian and Biblical Texts Reveal Oldest Known Solar Eclipse—and Secrets of Ramesses the Gr

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Ancient Egyptian and Biblical Texts Reveal Oldest Known Solar Eclipse—and Secrets of Ramesses the Great's Rule

This is significant on several grounds. First the finding helps date historical events. That alone would make it significant.

But special interest for RF, it shows a middle ground between those who reject the Bible as pure fantasy and those who take every aspect literally. Personally I was particularly interested by this and here I go to the original scientific report which is to me clearer Solar eclipse of 1207 BC helps to date pharaohs | Astronomy & Geophysics | Oxford Academic I'm not for the moment asserting that everything in the Bible is historical but that some parts are, but allowing for faulty translations and understanding. And without confirming evidence I don't accept as historical various passages which appear to describe historical events.

This records that, after Joshua had led the people of Israel into Canaan, he prayed: “Sun, stand still [Hebrew dôm] at Gibeon, and Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.” The passage continues: “And the Sun stood still, and the Moon stopped [Hebrew 'amad], until the nation took vengeance on their enemies,” (Joshua 10:12–13, New Revised Standard Version [NRSV]).

If these words are describing a real observation, then a major astronomical event was being reported (“There has been no day like it, before or since”, Joshua 10:14), but what does the text mean? The Hebrew word dôm means to be silent, dumb or still. The term 'amad is a broader word meaning to stop or stand. Modern English translations of this passage, such as the NRSV quoted above, have all followed the King James Authorized Version (KJAV) of The Bible, translated in 1611, and assumed that the Hebrew text means that the Sun and Moon stopped moving. However, a plausible alternative meaning is that the Sun and Moon stopped doing what they normally do: they stopped shining. In other words the text is referring to a solar eclipse, when the Sun stops shining. As a solar eclipse can only occur when the Moon is directly between the Earth and the Sun, the Moon itself is not visible and so it is not reflecting sunlight to the Earth – like the Sun, it has “stopped shining” as well.

The first person to suggest that Joshua 10:12–14 was referring to a solar eclipse seems to have been the linguist Robert Wilson (1918), who almost 100 years ago gave the following translation:

Be eclipsed, O sun, in Gibeon,

And the moon in the valley of Aijalon!

And the sun was eclipsed and the moon turned back, while the nation was avenged on its enemies.

Wilson claimed that in Babylonian cuneiform texts there are words with the same root as the Hebrew dôm that are used in Babylonian astronomical tablets in connection with eclipses, meaning “to be dark”. However, at that time, 100 years ago, it was not deemed possible to investigate this further because of the laborious nature of the calculations required
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Neato. So they determined when there could have been an eclipse using computer simulations I suppose, and that was 1207 BC. I am not clear on how they associate Joshua's event with that of Ramses the Great, however neato.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
as with many of the published stories of this sort, this is a proposed solution offered by researchers trying to determine what might explain texts A and B, using modern knowledge of astronomy.

While this study is being published through the peer-review process, it is "just" a hypothesis to explain the two textual references, which otherwise cannot be set to a particular time. I am sure that other scholars will critique the claim and offer other interpretations, and dispute points of this study.

It's an interesting hypothesis, but I'm not sure how one could verify that this eclipse was indeed reported simultaneously in the two texts. Maybe there are other texts, elsewhere, that also mention this event, and can be set to the time.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
as with many of the published stories of this sort, this is a proposed solution offered by researchers trying to determine what might explain texts A and B, using modern knowledge of astronomy.

While this study is being published through the peer-review process, it is "just" a hypothesis to explain the two textual references, which otherwise cannot be set to a particular time. I am sure that other scholars will critique the claim and offer other interpretations, and dispute points of this study.

It's an interesting hypothesis, but I'm not sure how one could verify that this eclipse was indeed reported simultaneously in the two texts. Maybe there are other texts, elsewhere, that also mention this event, and can be set to the time.
That to me is a false test. When something is reported is unimportant. What is important is that two reports are of the same event whenever they are committed to writing.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
That to me is a false test. When something is reported is unimportant. What is important is that two reports are of the same event whenever they are committed to writing.
Yes, but it is a tenuous linkage at best...a possibility, but not a certainty by any means...and other scholars need to closely review and test this hypothesis.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ancient Egyptian and Biblical Texts Reveal Oldest Known Solar Eclipse—and Secrets of Ramesses the Great's Rule

This is significant on several grounds. First the finding helps date historical events. That alone would make it significant.

But special interest for RF, it shows a middle ground between those who reject the Bible as pure fantasy and those who take every aspect literally. Personally I was particularly interested by this and here I go to the original scientific report which is to me clearer Solar eclipse of 1207 BC helps to date pharaohs | Astronomy & Geophysics | Oxford Academic I'm not for the moment asserting that everything in the Bible is historical but that some parts are, but allowing for faulty translations and understanding. And without confirming evidence I don't accept as historical various passages which appear to describe historical events.

This records that, after Joshua had led the people of Israel into Canaan, he prayed: “Sun, stand still [Hebrew dôm] at Gibeon, and Moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.” The passage continues: “And the Sun stood still, and the Moon stopped [Hebrew 'amad], until the nation took vengeance on their enemies,” (Joshua 10:12–13, New Revised Standard Version [NRSV]).

If these words are describing a real observation, then a major astronomical event was being reported (“There has been no day like it, before or since”, Joshua 10:14), but what does the text mean? The Hebrew word dôm means to be silent, dumb or still. The term 'amad is a broader word meaning to stop or stand. Modern English translations of this passage, such as the NRSV quoted above, have all followed the King James Authorized Version (KJAV) of The Bible, translated in 1611, and assumed that the Hebrew text means that the Sun and Moon stopped moving. However, a plausible alternative meaning is that the Sun and Moon stopped doing what they normally do: they stopped shining. In other words the text is referring to a solar eclipse, when the Sun stops shining. As a solar eclipse can only occur when the Moon is directly between the Earth and the Sun, the Moon itself is not visible and so it is not reflecting sunlight to the Earth – like the Sun, it has “stopped shining” as well.

The first person to suggest that Joshua 10:12–14 was referring to a solar eclipse seems to have been the linguist Robert Wilson (1918), who almost 100 years ago gave the following translation:

Be eclipsed, O sun, in Gibeon,

And the moon in the valley of Aijalon!

And the sun was eclipsed and the moon turned back, while the nation was avenged on its enemies.

Wilson claimed that in Babylonian cuneiform texts there are words with the same root as the Hebrew dôm that are used in Babylonian astronomical tablets in connection with eclipses, meaning “to be dark”. However, at that time, 100 years ago, it was not deemed possible to investigate this further because of the laborious nature of the calculations required

They should have listened to Mr. Wilson back then.

Here are a couple more talking about an eclipse.

Isa 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.

2Ki 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of YHVH, that YHVH will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?

2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.

2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto YHVH: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.

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