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Featured Analyzing Messianic Anointing.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by John D. Brey, Oct 9, 2020.

  1. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The jus primae noctis of the phallic-cults, i.e., the tribal god fathering a bride's firstborn, and entering him into the priesthood, is a historical account of the logic and theology of the ancient phallic-cults. And Israel follows the precedents and logic of those phallic-cults, as does Christianity. The temple is the “house of god” such that the priests are his family members and servants conceived by him in the "bedchamber" (Rashi) of his house.

    Jews really do practice pidyon haben. They really do have to purchase the firstborn male out of the priesthood. And that really is associated with the jus primae noctis of the tribal god, even in Judaism. It really is only the firstborn male who must be purchased (pidyon haben) out of the priesthood. And that fact really is based on the concept of jus primae noctis (the right of the first night), and droit du seigneur (the Lord’s right).

    The “anointed one” is the one born as a son of the tribal deity. The oil used in his conception, placed on the holy organ, is where the etymology of “messiah” (משח the “anointed one,” or the one born of the “anointing” oil) comes from. But Jesus is anointed with the holy spirit (rather than holy oil) because he’s not born of a phallus anointed with oil (he's not born of a phallus at all). He’s conceived through the holy spirit, and not the ithyphallic-organ made salubrious with the oil that anoints the conception event of the tribal god’s offspring.

    Which brings us to another fact that’s true which you poo poo.

    Mishneh Torah, Melachim 1:12, really does point out that a firstborn is never anointed. Only someone who ascends to the throne out of birth order requires anointing. And in the primogeniture of Israel, the firstborn son is qualified for the priesthood, but only the firstborn son. And the firstborn son is qualified for kingship and priesthood without being anointed since his very conception is his anointing.

    Do you see what this has to do with Jesus? Particularly in a dispensational mode (btw, I grew up under the teaching of probably the greatest pre-millennial dispensationalist teachers who ever lived)?

    The god of this world, the tribal god of Israel, the god of the "old testement," is the alleged firstborn of God, the light-bringer, the alleged first creature from his hand. ------But in truth he’s a usurper. He’s created out of the true birth order such that he’s reckoned the messianic cherub, the anointed cherub, the high priest of God. He’s the source of the first testes. Added to ha-adam. The two stones; if you will (and all of you born in the natural, general, sense, have).

    He gave Moses his two testes stones. But they were contaminated with sin. So Moses, like Abraham before him, broke their power, and enfeebled himself as their deliverer.

    But you don’t read that in the written Law. In that wrong-headed writ it’s Israel whose sin causes Moses to break the testes of God’s usurping firstborn, the testes of the light-bringer, the Lawgiver.

    Jesus is the true anointing, the true firstborn of God. And he came to destroy the curse of the Law for those who can free themselves from the lure of the two original testes, and the lust associated with their delivery mechanism, and deliverer; part and parcel of which is the witch’s brew of thinking you’re the chosen ones, the direct offspring, by the first birth, come, so to say, from the reproductive organ, the scroll, attached to the testimony of the tribal deity.

    We're all sons of Satan (who's the god of this world) through the mechanism of our first birth (the two stones of the testemony, come, so to say, through the fleshly deliverer). Ye must be born again to free yourself from the god of this world, who's the true and only father of all those born only once.



    John
     
    #1 John D. Brey, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    :facepalm:

    If Mishneh Torah is an "extensive commentary on the Talmud, composed in the 12th century by the renowned Jewish philosopher and scholar Moses Maimonides" then what has a 12 century Jew got to tell me about the Messiah? Its just more complicated Jewish interpretations of things that Jesus had already fulfilled and dispensed with. The Law is no more.....the old covenant has been superseded. (Jeremiah 31:31-32) Israel has been left behind and some of them are feeling it, basically giving up hope that he is ever coming.

    Whatever you grew up with, I can assure you, it was not the Christianity that Jesus introduced into world in the first century. The "weeds" crept into Christianity not long after the death of the apostles as it was foretold. It wasn't until the "harvest" that the 'wheat and the weeds' are separated. Its nearly harvest time right now.

    Christ is both a King and a Priest "according to the manner of Melchizedek". That is a dispensation. He came from the spirit realm and was born as a human child...that was a dispensation....there are many in connection with Jesus....not your average human being....born sinless to pay the "ransom". The Savior of mankind could not be an ordinary human.

    You speak of a god I do not know. How on earth do you come to these conclusions?

    Jesus is God's "firstborn".....his "only begotten son" who was "with" the Father in heaven before coming to fulfill his mission on earth. He is from a divine source but he is not, and never was "God".
    It was satan who was the anointed cherub in Eden. (Ezekiel 28:13-17)

    According to scripture, Jesus more correctly fills the role of Michael the Archangel. The Logos is not God.
    Yahweh (Jehovah) is his God and Father, even when he returned to heaven he still addressed his Father as "my God" (Revelation 3:12)

    Seriously....this sounds like its coming from some sex obsessed lunatic! Why does everything you post have sexual overtones? Where are you getting this nonsense?

    Matthew 23:23-24....
    "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was necessary to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!"

    I see you gulping down camels here whilst straining out the gnats. What has put you on this path?

    Jesus came to release Jews from the curse of the law...gentiles were never under it.

    The curse of the law manifested itself in the fact that no one could keep it perfectly. It was a constant reminder to the Jewish people of their sinful state and their need for a redeemer....a permanent solution to their dilemma. But when Jesus came, they rejected him because he did not fit their distorted view of what he was supposed to be. He didn’t fit their description, which was an invention of the Jewish leaders to accommodate their own importance, not taken from scripture. They misinterpreted so much, no wonder the Jews could never get it right....they had too big an opinion of themselves and the way they interpreted scripture was distorted in so many ways......as "sons of Abraham", it was as if that somehow made them better than everyone else. Need I remind you again of John the Baptist's words to them (Matthew 3:7-10; John 1:19-28) .....this from a man filled with God's spirit from his mother's womb. (Luke 1:15) Can you ignore him? If so how do you justify your position?

    You deny so much to cling to the errors of the Jews. But that is your choice......you must decide if you are Jewish or Christian because you cannot be both. There are two different religions, under two different covenants here.

    You cannot support those whom God abandoned because they were serial covenant breakers. Its their choice to stick with the errors of their forefathers......its our choice to accept Jesus as the Christ and live according to his teachings. You seem to want to have a foot in both camps....and Jesus said he came to cause division. He was not sent to unify Israel but to lead the "lost sheep" out of that corrupted pen. Don't you see why we need to separate from them too? They do not have God's spirit which is evidenced by the fact that they are as much a "part of the world" as any other religion. They are "friends of the world" by forming alliances with nations whose worship they despise (James 4:4)....ancient Israel tried to do the same thing and God punished them with defeat because they treated him with disrespect and dishonor. Who is "Israel" today? Can you tell me?

    Can you not speak of anything scriptural without bringing sex into the conversation? We are "sons of Adam", not "sons of satan", unless we choose to be by following his standards and not the ones set out in God’s word.

    I see such a conflict of interest in your responses, but your defense of the Jews makes God out to be the bad guy.....he can never be the bad guy....I hope you understand that. Don't let your attitude put you among those whom God will reject when Christ comes as judge. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    We all need to heed Paul's words....
    Hebrews 10:26-31...
    "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and a burning indignation that is going to consume those in opposition. 28 Anyone who has disregarded the Law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three. 29 How much greater punishment do you think a person will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God and who has regarded as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? 30 For we know the One who said: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again: “Jehovah will judge his people.31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
     
    #2 Deeje, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  3. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Judaism and Christianity are both, both a faith and a religion. On the faith side, they're of the same God, and are a brotherhood. On the religion side, they protect religious orthodoxies that from the vantage point of religion are incompatible.

    Imo, I can be Jewish and Christian from the faith side, even if the religious orthodoxies appear incompatible, so long as I place faith above religion. And I do.

    Christianity was my firstborn religion. Like Abraham, and through Abrahamic faith, I'm willing to sacrifice that firstborn on the altar of a higher calling from God.



    John
     
  4. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . From my vantage point, there's a peculiar paradox in the people who speak of being sex-crazed as though that's some dirty thing when out of the other side of their mouth they speak of sex as some god-given glorious blessing.

    From my perspective sex is the source of our sinful nature. There's nothing good about it except that it put us here as living dead men abel [sic] to seek out salvation from the depravity of our first, sexual, conception; salvation through non-sexual rebirth.

    In the past, the same people who accused me of being obsessed with sex, eventually decided that I was a menace precisely when they came to understand that my obsession was actually my being obsessed with convincing them that, fundamentally, seminally, their sin and failure is related to their parent's sexual glee in the moment they were conceived.

    Imo, there's nothing more foundational to the revelation of scripture than sex. Jews gather around an eight day old male as a knife is taken to the offensive flesh. And this is the foundational ritual of their religion. Catholic priests and nuns promise never to engage in the devil's play. Throughout the bible, religion, and faith, sex, and all that it hides and reveals, is central to those who aren't willing to compromise with it for the sake of what some consider God's greatest blessing to mankind.

    In other words, my obsession is contra sex, and to the degree people can't do without it, or are proud of the person that came from it, they tend to find my obsession, either consciously, or subconsciously, menacing. . . To the Jew, I'm a menace since they were born just fine the first time (no rebirth needed). And for many goyim I'm a spiritual menace for taking an izmel to the flesh they could never imagine doing without.

    Ironically, for those who consider we who attack sex to be sex-crazed, Jesus was conceived without it, and died before having anything to do with it. For them, i.e., those who consider it sex-crazed to speak of the scripture's obsession with eradicating sex (by the blade of the mohel, or hell, the Catholic priest's celibacy), Jesus' being born without it, and dying without it, is just a peculiar and unimportant triviality and accident of fate. It has no place in their sexually conceived faith and religion.



    John
     
    #4 John D. Brey, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  5. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I guess we have to ask whether the Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah continued to be Jews in their religious practices?.....they were certainly "Jewish" by birth, but did they stay within that corrupted religion or did they have to separate? You tell me.

    I place my faith in the God of Jesus Christ....a God who placed life and death before his chosen nation and they chose death. If you cling to them you will be considered one of them. I can understand your loyalty for what appears to be the underdog in this scenario, but IMO it is misplaced......very misplaced.

    The Jews have as much opportunity as any person of any faith, to come to Christ......its usually pride that keeps them from doing so. We all know where that kind of "cut off your nose to spite you face" pride leads. It doesn't have to. The future is bright, but not for the ones who are blinded by the devil. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

    And I believe it requires a decision, like the one Moses called for after the golden calf incident....they were given a choice to leave the side of those who had transgressed God's law, and join Moses......those who didn't were slaughtered without mercy where they stood. Remember that these were the people he had just released from slavery in Egypt....now he was executing them. God's justice is set in stone. Mercy can be applied but only if it is warranted.

    Do you really know your God, because it seems like you ignore a lot of things and then act as if he should never have done what he did.....God's justice is tempered by mercy, not sentiment. There was no basis to show mercy to those who were unrepentant.

    How do you know that it is a higher calling from God? We have a deceiver hiding behind the scenes who has the whole world under his control. (1 John 5:19) How can you tell if what you have been led to believe is true ? How sure can you be when you are without a brotherhood who also accept what you believe? Perhaps "Messianic Jew" would be a better description for you than "Christian", because you do not fit the description from my vantage point. You seem to be stuck in the middle, sitting on an invisible fence.

    Your zeal is apparent and commendable, but your beliefs are warped, and do not reflect any of the teachings of the Christ.
     
    #5 Deeje, Oct 9, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    IMV sex was always meant to be a blessing from God....one given to the first humans as the means to fulfill the mandate given to them to "fill the earth" with their kind. How could it be dirty? It was sanctified in a marriage.

    It only became "dirty" when a knowledge of evil was stolen and an understanding of how sex could be used to denegrate humanity rather than to be the loving act that God meant it to be in a committed relationship.

    So sex is the original sin in your view? That is not at all what is indicated in scripture. Disobedience was the original sin.

    The non sexual "rebirth" (being "born again") was an essential part of the resurrection in connection with those who would join Christ in his Kingdom. They have a new birth as it were from flesh and blood to spirit life in heaven. Once these attain to spirit life, there is no more gender, because they leave their fleshly bodies behind and they become like the angels, genderless, spiritual servants of God.

    That is a very twisted understanding of the situation according to my study of the scriptures. It sound more like a Catholic position on the celibacy of their priesthood. Forbidding these priests to marry and have a natural sex life with a wife, has produced the most despicable abuse of children that has disgusted people all over the world, including Catholics themselves.

    I had so often wondered why these men abused young boys more than young girls....and it wasn't until I saw an interview with a pedophile priest in prison that I finally understood. He admitted that celibacy to a Catholic priest only involved sex with women....that is why they targeted young boys, because it was technically not sex with women....now how twisted can you get? This situation led to the priesthood harboring pedophiles and homosexuals because sex was freely available and obviously God wasn't looking. They had convinced themselves that God didn't care about that.

    I find no scriptural basis for your viewpoint personally. Sex was never the dirty thing you suggest that it is...its only how humans participate in it that makes it "dirty". God's laws dealt very specifically with sexual sin because it is such a strong drive in all creatures.....but only humans had morals laws governing this behavior. Only they were punished for transgression.
    Is your background Catholic? Because if it is, that explains a lot.

    There was good reasons for both if you think about it......Jesus could not have been a "son of Adam" because all of Adam's offspring were now contaminated genetically with sin (Romans 5:12) so God had to transfer the life of his son into the womb of a human mother so that he could be born sinless and pay the debt that Adam left to his children. A perfect sinless life was lost, so a perfect sinless life was offered in exchange. That is what redemption means.

    Jesus remained unmarried and celibate because he was a firstborn in Israel, and bound to his mother till the age of 30, at which age he presented himself to John for baptism.That explains why he entrusted the care of his mother to the apostle John as he was dying. He had siblings who were not yet believers.

    He had no time for a wife and children during his brief ministry, and it was not what he was sent for. He had a mission and he fulfilled it before returning to heaven to resume his life there, which would have meant leaving a wife and any children behind. The obsession with sex is in no way in harmony with anything that Jesus taught IMV.

    Where will I find "the scripture's obsession with eradicating sex"? I may find it in Catholicism but not in scripture .I hope you understand that Catholicism is NOT based on scripture....?

    The circumcision of infants was to honor a covenant with Abraham. Only Jewish males were circumcised and as we are aware, circumcision actually prevents a lot of infections now that we are in imperfect bodies, it is harder to stay healthy. It was to be done on the eighth day after the birth of a male child and on that specific day there is a higher level of vitamin K (a clotting agent) that is not present on any other day of that male's life. It had God's sanction because it was done at his command. Who told you otherwise?

    Circumcision was not imposed on Gentiles.
     
  7. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    On those rare occasions, I sometimes agree with Deeje.

    Now, I don’t believe in the whole nonsense about the Original Sin, but I have to agree with Deeje, that sex has nothing to do with the original sin.

    It was their disobedience - when god told them to not eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, in which god punished them with some curses. Not sex.

    If it was sex, then why did god decreed to the humans in Genesis 1, to go forth and multiple?

    If sex was a sin, then why did god tell Abraham, Isaac and Jacob would have many descendants that would live in the land (Canaan) first promised to Abraham.

    They wouldn’t have children, grandchildren and descendants if sex were forbidden.
     
  8. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . My spiritual father, Col. R.B., Thieme Jr., taught forcefully and often that religion is the devil's ace trump. The deceiver isn't a dunce with red horns. He's read the same scripture you have. And he has it memorized. Every word of it. He knows it better than you or I.

    Thankfully, what's unfortunate in the case of most believers, is fortuitous in relationship to the devil: he has no access to what's hidden beneath the outer narrative he's memorized.

    I have a brotherhood with all Jews and Christians who serve the one true God. Nevertheless, I place my friendship and union with God even above my fellow man or my brother. From my perspective I love my brother and fellow man only in the same degree I first love God. I come to love my brother in the biblical sense through love of God.



    John
     
  9. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    "For we are the circumcision . . ." (Philippians 3:3).


    John
     
  10. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    My teachers have taught me the same thing. At the early part of last century, my brotherhood were exposing “religion” as “a snare and a racket”. They were separating out of Christendom in similar fashion to how the Jews who responded to Jesus separated out of Judaism. They preached their message and it resonated with many souls who could see that Christendom had lost its way.

    Denominational Christianity causes division in how many ways to slice up Christ’s teachings whilst still claiming to be one body.
    Non-denominational Christianity IMO just creates tolerance for different views...it never unifies it’s adherents.

    We see “Babylon the great” as the devil’s empire of false religion.....the most reprehensible part being Christendom, because they claim to follow Christ and should know better. We are told to remove ourselves from that disgusting place. (Revelation 18:4-5)

    Satan's three part control over the human race being politics, commerce, and religion.....places every human on earth is under the control of those elements. This is how he can have the whole world ‘in his power’. (1 John 5:19) It also explains Jesus' admonition to be “no part of this world”. (John 18:36; John 15:18-21) This means that Jesus true disciples would be separated out of this world in ways that the churches are not. It would cause bad blood....and bad press. (like it did in the first century)

    Religion and politics are are a toxic mix, as is religion and commerce. Where there is greed, (being a desire for wealth or the exercise of power over others) God and his Christ are missing.

    Where there is politically motivated bloodshed, either with direct participation or tacit support, God and his Christ are missing.

    Where there is immorality tolerated and not dealt with actively, God and his Christ are missing.

    You will only find them backing up those who obey the clear directives of the Master....not making excuses for why they don’t.

    According to Jesus, “many” are going to present themselves confidently at the judgment, considering themselves to be ‘good Christians’, only to find a stinging rejection. (Matthew 7:21-23)

    We have to know "the will of the Father"...and just "do" it.

    So what does “doing the will of the Father” actually mean in real terms? How would you answer?

    It is true that the devil knows scripture better than most "Christians".....but that is because of the ruse he created whereby appealing to fallen human nature, he convinced people that their leaders knew it all for them (because they had attended some theological training institution and gained some degrees).....so this one could stand up at a pulpit and spoon feed them whatever the church wanted them to know and they would go back to their mundane lives feeling like they had fulfilled some kind of duty but leaving their "Christianity" at the door where they picked it up. I used to be one of those.....but I got hungry for answers that were never forthcoming. So I left and took my search elsewhere.

    Who are these ones? Can someone serve the true God and reject Christ? (John 17:3) Can someone go through the motions of performance, yet never 'do the will of the Father' and expect Jesus to accept them?

    I find a great gap between what Jesus commanded and what you are accepting as your reality.....one not shared with you ‘brotherhood’ apparently.

    I would ask you to look back over the history covered in the Bible since the formation of Abraham’s descendants into a nation, whom God accepted as his own, but only after they had agreed to obey him in all things......can you tell me when God ever operated through one human (other than his own son) and not a collective which he obligated to adhere to his clearly stated laws? They had instructions as to how to worship God acceptably. The nation of Israel did so under the mediator of the old covenant, Moses, whom God chose for them and they had a priesthood who also had strict instructions as to how to conduct their worship, how to teach and carry out their duties.....

    The Christians had Jesus as mediator of the new covenant, with clearly stated rules for their beliefs and behavior. These too had appointed shepherds who shared in caring for the flock, who were not above their brothers, but with the intention of caring for the flock as a collective, under the Fine Shepherd...and answerable to him. (Hebrews 13:17) Where does that place you?

    I found a brotherhood who don't make excuses....they know their Bible because Bible study is what they are encouraged to do...not going through the motions of empty ritual....but putting what they learn into practice as one cohesive, global collective. They are no more permitted to bring their own ideas into the congregation than those in the first century......because there was to be no division, and all speaking in agreement....(2 John 9-11; 1 Corinthians 1:10) That meant that their beliefs had just one source....Jesus Christ.

    Your love for God is commendable and very apparent, as is your rebellion against many of Christendom’s teachings. But are you still a part of it?....albeit an unwilling part? Have you heeded God’s command at Revelation 18:4-5? If not, why not?

    That verse is translated in different ways in different Bibles....which translation accords with the rest of scripture?

    Jeremiah 4:4....showed what true circumcision meant.

    “The Israel of God” identified by Paul (Galatians 6:16) were Christians who were made up of both Jews and Gentiles, anointed with God’s spirit, but many of whom were not circumcised in the flesh, but all were circumcised in heart....including the women who were among the “chosen ones”. (Romans 2:28-29) This was now a spiritual nation, not according to the flesh.

    The disobedient Jews demonstrated that their attitude was all wrong....it’s not about performance or words....it’s about a heart-felt obedience to God out of love, which puts God’s commands above personal preference. It doesn’t mean misinterpreting scripture to reinforce a false belief....or to be a rebel in among a “brotherhood” who just don’t get it. All must be united because it is God’s spirit that accomplishes that. There are no ‘lone rangers’ in Christianity. The true Christians (wheat) are separated out of the fake ones (weeds) who were planted by the devil not long after the death of the apostles. Only at the harvest time is this separation complete. We are almost there.

    For me Matthew 24:45 means that there is a “faithful and discreet slave” appointed by the Master to feed his entire household at this “time of the end”. He is not above them, but a fellow slave with an important assignment....the fact that Jesus did not identify ‘him’, but posed a question as to ‘who ‘he’ really was?’.....means that we have to identify that slave for ourselves, based on the evidence.....and feed at his table.....there is no self-serve, and no “food” imported from somewhere else, permitted.

    That is my evaluation of the way it is.....unless God issues an invitation to a person, they will remain outside of God’s Kingdom “family” wondering why no one agrees with them. (John 6:44; 65)

    Where are you? Where do you see yourself in the big picture?
     
  11. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    What if we asked the question differently: Can someone reject Jesus and serve the true God?

    Do you see the point? Jesus didn't exist yet when Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, hell, Moses, David, and the prophets, faithfully served God. . . Furthermore, God told the prophets to seal up the very scriptures Israel would require in order to see who Jesus was when he finally arrived. Those scriptures were opened up by Jesus, but not for the Jews, but for you and me.

    This implies that there's a sense where, because of the "blinding of Israel," they can serve God as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob served God, even though Jesus, the Jewish Messiah, has already notched out (and been notched out), his first advent.

    If God has supernaturally blinded Israel (and he says he has) so that they don't see that Messiah has arrived, then the dispensation of the Church (whereby the Gentiles have the "old testament" meaning opened to them) is just as indecipherable to Israel as is the first revelation of the arrival of Messiah. In this case Jews can function as they did prior to Jesus' birth, i.e., awaiting the revelation of Messiah (serving God faithfully in that state, like Abraham or David), even though for those who've had their eyes un-blinded, opened (circumcised), Messiah has clearly arrived.

    For the plan that can never be thwarted God may have blinded Israel in a manner that transgresses our normal understanding of time, and empirical perceptions, so that there are righteous Jews this very day functioning like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, even through the scriptures that reveal the first advent of Messiah, in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, are right there in front of them. . . For Israel, Messiah may still be hidden behind the burning bush, while for us, the thorny crown of his first advent has been removed to reveal an ugly naked truth Israel will eventually swallow down when they eventually swallow the true meaning of the last ritual in a ceremonial circumcision (metzitzah).



    John
     
    #11 John D. Brey, Oct 11, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  12. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    This is the paradox of interpretation we spoke of earlier. You need to understand the broad, overarching, scope of scripture, before you can unify the parts that make up the whole. And yet, paradoxically, you can't get the larger picture (the whole), without first knowing the meaning of the smaller parts, each of which makes up the whole.

    What this implies, as far as my exegetical practices are concerned, is that you must build and destroy, build and destroy, using a more perfect understanding of the text, based on interpretation, to retroactively re-read the very texts you formerly used to establish the broader context that forms the lens you use to see where you've come from more clearly. But then you must insert the new understanding, of the early perception, back into the process, even though that will re-establish the very nature of the lens used to see the past (interpretation) more clearly.

    This implies not only an extremely flexible heremeutical approach (literally willing and able to accept the asymmetry of the revelation), but it tends to destroy the belief in a solid, stone like testimony, that's not subject to Moses appearing out of nowhere in order to smash to smithereens the very theological beliefs one has come to idolize as the stone cold truth.



    John
     
  13. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . In another message I implied we can know more than Paul. More is revealed to us, and we can have a broader, more in depth panorama of the whole plan (since we are the final call on this civilization) than Paul had.

    Even with his circumspect perspective Paul never threw Israel under the bus. He was dumbfounded about what God was doing with "Israel after the flesh." But he never threw them under the bus.



    John
     
  14. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    As a voice in the wilderness crying out prepare the way for the Lord . . . he's comin round the bend. <s>

    My spiritual father, whom I mentioned before, Col. R.B., Thieme Jr., was, like myself, a fairly right-wing political conservative. And yet he never once said anything negative about Israel, or Jews, and their tendency, in politics, to support left-wing humanistic panaceas. He never once, in my decades of studying under him, made any antisemitic statement about politics, or theology. He implied that God's relationship with Israel, what he's doing with Israel . . . and obviously other things too . . . are, for a time perhaps, beyond the pay grade of any of us. We shouldn't try to know things God isn't prepared to show us.

    When he taught this it always created something of a conflict in me since Thieme treated almost all theology as transparent and knowable through the spirit and study. Nevertheless, when it can to Israel and the Jews he tended to stop in his tracks and accept a certain inscrutableness to God's mysterious workings with Israel.

    I would say that after more than eight or nine thousand hours of studying under Thieme that one thing, leaving God's workings through Israel open and outside of Christian theorizing, was the single most important thing Thieme ever planted in my soul.



    John
     
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    OK.....it is apparent that you are determined to stick with the teachings of your mentor. But from my perspective, I see so many reasons why he could not possibly be inspired by God's spirit.

    I looked up your Col. R.B., Thieme Jr. and these particular bits of information stuck out to me.....if I may...

    “Thieme graduated from the University of Arizona (Phi Beta Kappa) and Dallas Theological Seminary (summa cum laude).

    After completion of his graduate work in 1950, he became pastor of Berachah Church in Houston, Texas. His extensive training in Greek, Hebrew, theology, history, and textual criticism provided the foundation for his demanding professional life of studying and teaching the Word of God. Thieme retired as pastor of Berachah Church after fifty-three years of faithful service.”


    1) He was seminary trained. IOW he got his grounding in the doctrines of Christendom, which apparently spilled over into his teachings. His studies would have included the trinity....a heaven or hell scenario....and the symbol of the cross. None of which are taught in scripture.

    What are his/your beliefs regarding these things?

    It also says.....

    “His seminary studies were interrupted by World War II military service during which he rose to the rank of lieutenant colonel in the United States Army Air Corps.“

    2) Jesus was clear that his disciples cannot be part of the world, (John 18:36) which includes its political actions, particularly those that involve bloodshed. Christians can have no part in military actions because it involves taking human life. Jesus taught us to “love our enemies” which rules out killing them, for any reason. (Matthew 5:43-44)

    3) Patriotism is as strongly held as the Christian Faith for most people, especially in the USA....but the two are not compatible. You cannot sacrifice Christian teaching for misplaced loyalty to a national government or country. You cannot be a true disciple of Christ with blood on your hands.

    Even Israel, when used by God to defend their God-given land, needed his sanction. When they took military action that was not sanctioned by him, he abandoned them to their enemies. (Isaiah 1:15) He punished them when they made alliances with foreign nations. God has not sanctioned a war since the Jews were dispersed from their homeland. This dispersion, or Diaspora, arose because the Jews were exiled from their homeland by conquering nations—first by the Assyrians, in 740 B.C.E., then by the Babylonians, in 607 B.C.E. Who was responsible for that? As it was prophesied, only a remnant of the exiles ever returned to Israel. (Isaiah 10:21-22) The rest remained scattered.

    If war is declared in any part of the world, the only place you will find true “Christians” is in jail for being conscientious objectors.

    In WW 1 & 2 “Christians” were killing their own brethren on the opposing side.....Catholic killed Catholic, Protestant killed Protestant....which side was God supporting? He was supporting those who upheld the teachings of his son.....which was not those participating or even consenting to that bloodshed.

    A true Christians will take a bullet for his brother, but he will never fire one.
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    The other “wilderness” has existed since the apostles died. The end of the first century is when the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable began to infiltrate the Christian congregations. It was expected because the apostles and Jesus himself foretold it. (2 Thessalonians 2:3; 2 Peter 2:1-3; 1 Timothy 4:1-3 )From the second century on, it was downhill all the way.

    The “voice in the wilderness” has been promoting God’s truth since God cleansed a people at the beginning of “the time of the end”.....can you imagine how extensive those weeds became over almost 2,000 years of them promoting their false doctrines?.....the majority of that time, hapless humans were at the mercy of a completely corrupted church system, in much the same way as the Jews were subject to an equally corrupted system......the same entity corrupted both, using the exact same techniques. Take the self interested leaders off track, and you take the people with them.

    When did “the last days” begin? That is when God had already begun the ‘cleansing’ of his worshippers......this 'spiritual awakening' was not the work of one man....it was the gathering of a collective who were all drawn to one purpose. This is why Jesus chose 12 apostles.....no one man will ever be “the one”. If it’s the work of one man, that is proof that it isn’t from God. His spirit operates on the whole collective....it’s what brings them together....his spirit. It’s what gets the work Jesus assigned, to be accomplished in spite of the odds. (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20; Matthew 10:11-14)

    Again...Christ’s true disciples can have no political involvement. Why? Because of who is ruling this world. (1 John 5:19) The devil claimed that world rulership was “delivered” to him and that he can give rulership to whomever he wishes. (Luke 4:5-8) To support the political elements of this world, is to support God’s enemy. We are to be completely neutral with regard to whatever our governments are doing...the devil's world does not honor God in any way.....we are to obey their laws, but only when they do not transgress God’s laws. You will not find Jesus’ true disciples in jail for breaking the law.....except perhaps for conscientious objection.

    And yet Jesus and the apostles were clear.....Israel had done their dash.....despite an appalling history of disobedience, God kept his end of the bargain and produced their Messiah, only to have them silence him, like they did all through their past interactions with God's prophets. (Matthew 23:37-39) They were given back to the world.....they are now just one of the nations, blood spillers like all the rest, under the god of this world...blinded like all the unbelievers. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

    Spiritual Israel replaced fleshly Israel......God created “sons of Abraham” from the stones. (Matthew 3: 7-10) The axe that was at the base of the tree, completed its task. Why is that so hard to comprehend?
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    And he was horribly misled according to my studies....

    I have been a student and teacher of the Bible for 50 years.....in my studies I never was led down rabbit holes or to add to things that the Bible itself was clear about. There was never a need.....and it would only have complicated something that was not really complex.

    TBH, I have never had such an in depth conversation with any other person on RF since I started posting here......but hopefully what I have imparted was none of my own imaginings.....nor was it the product of one human interpretation of scripture. I will never feel like an alien in my spiritual family because we all believe the same things......they all come from the same source.....I believe we have found the "faithful slave" and are happy to eat from his table. We are strengthened and united, not confused and divided.

    If nothing I have said resonates with you, then my work is done. Thank you for the time and effort you have taken to enlighten me about your beliefs, but nothing you have said resonates with me at all, and in fact goes contrary to much of what Jesus taught.

    But I wish you well nonetheless....I can only hope that you can see past your own roadblocks....to the true teachings of Jesus Christ.....he should be our only teacher.
     
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  18. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . Everything you've said resonates with me. The basics we agree on pretty unanimously. And it doesn't bother me in the least that the more mystical stuff I study doesn't resonate with you. I don't seek perfect agreement. Quite the contrary.

    The amount of information you've posted to me in the last week or so is not just good for me, imo, it's good for you too. It allows you the opportunity to express your views (reexamine them) and to clarify them by expressing them. Practice makes perfect. (You've clearly had a lot of practice so I'm not being critical.)

    I would say, and this is just my opinion, that believers should be careful about being too dogmatic about doctrinal points of view, exempting of course, the fundamentals of the faith. Every doctrinal position is based on interpretation. From my perspective interpretation doesn't deliver up the stone-cold-truth, ever. Interpretation is an ongoing process; and the good interpreter is, imo, constantly in a process of creative-destruction, and rebuilding on a new, more accurate, foundation (the foundation that survived the last round of creative-destruction).



    John
     
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  19. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think the symbol of the cross isn't taught in scripture? I would say it's the most important symbol in both testaments. I would say it's the most remarked on symbol in the Tanakh.



    John
     
  20. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    But unless there is what Paul called...the collective 'unity of mind in the same line of thought' (1 Corinthians 1:10)...it cannot be the truth. The truth unites people...falsehood divides them. All of the first Christians were taught the same things. No one was permitted to bring their own ideas into the congregation because that was a sign of apostasy. (2 John 9-10)

    It should be faith-strengthening to share one's beliefs, and the scripture that supports them. There is one 'big picture' and everything must fit in with no wriggle room. If there is wriggle room...people will wriggle. Jesus left no wriggle room. The basic doctrines were set in concrete. One of the greatest departures made by the church was the adoption of the trinity. Nowhere was this part of Christ's teachings.....never once did he ever claim to be equal with his Father. They changed the very nature of God and placed the son where the Father alone should be. A direct breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)

    Essentially, I see where the churches have totally corrupted the fundamentals of the faith......the trinity, as I have already mentioned....."immortality of the soul" resulting in a "heaven or hell" scenario....but this is not found in Jesus' teachings either. In sentencing the Pharisees to "Gehenna" what did Jesus condemnation actually mean? What is "gehenna" which in many Bibles is translated as "hell"? What are "fires that never stop burning", or "the worms that never die"? (Mark 9:43-48)

    If ever there was going to be a stone-cold-truth in interpretation, it should be now......we are at the very end of this present world situation.....if God does not reveal his truth to his people now, what purpose does any secrecy have at this juncture? The 'cleansing, whitening and refining' are now complete (Daniel 12:9-10)....the wheat stand in stark contrast to the weeds and they are ready for the final cleansing of this planet. The "few" who travel the "cramped and narrow" road will be rewarded for their faith and loyalty to Christ and his teachings even though it has meant difficulties for them.
    The ones speeding down the superhighway to death, won't know what's hit them. (Matthew 7:13-14; 21-23)

    Not anymore. There is no longer a reason to bury the truth in mystery.....the mystery is solved.....the Kingdom is the solution to all our woes. How many know what God's Kingdom is and how it will affect their future?

    From our website....

    "Long before the Christian era, crosses were used by the ancient Babylonians as symbols in their worship of the fertility god Tammuz. The use of the cross spread into Egypt, India, Syria, and China. Then, centuries later, the Israelites adulterated their worship of Jehovah with acts of veneration to the false god Tammuz. The Bible refers to this form of worship as a ‘detestable thing.’—Ezekiel 8:13, 14.

    The Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John use the Greek word stau·rosʹ when referring to the instrument of execution on which Jesus died. (Matthew 27:40; Mark 15:30; Luke 23:26) The word stau·rosʹ refers to an upright pole, stake, or post. The book The Non-Christian Cross, by J. D. Parsons, explains: “There is not a single sentence in any of the numerous writings forming the New Testament, which, in the original Greek, bears even indirect evidence to the effect that the stauros used in the case of Jesus was other than an ordinary stauros; much less to the effect that it consisted, not of one piece of timber, but of two pieces nailed together in the form of a cross.”

    As recorded at Acts 5:30, the apostle Peter used the word xyʹlon, meaning “tree,” as a synonym for stau·rosʹ, denoting, not a two-beamed cross, but an ordinary piece of upright timber or tree. It was not until about 300 years after Jesus’ death that some professed Christians promoted the idea that Jesus was put to death on a two-beamed cross. However, this view was based on tradition and a misuse of the Greek word stau·rosʹ. It is noteworthy that some ancient drawings depicting Roman executions feature a single wooden pole or tree."

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102006132?q=stauros&p=par

    We believe more this... [​IMG] than this...[​IMG]

    But in any case, the configuration is not the issue.....the fact that the cross greatly predates Christianity and was itself a pagan religious symbol long before the death of Christ, why would such a symbol, with disgusting origins be used for the death of God's son?

    Why would anyone want to make a replica of the instrument of torture used to execute someone they love?

    If Christ had been hanged would we now be seeing a gallows instead of a cross with a little figure of Jesus swinging from the rope? I think the whole concept is bizarre and insensitive to God who must have been greatly affected himself at such a cruel death at the hands of his enemies. The Jews knew what the Romans did to their victims and basically relished the thought of his agony. And you wonder why God can't forgive them? Any from the Jewish nation who rejected Christ, but who now appreciate how wrong that was, and who come repentantly to God and ask his forgiveness, will receive it. God forgives in a large way but one must be 'cut to the heart' over the wrong.

    When Peter gave his speech to the people after Jesus' death and resurrection, and the miraculous gifts of the spirit were in evidence, he said....(Acts 2:22-24; 32-38)

    "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus the Naz·a·reneʹ was a man publicly shown to you by God through powerful works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know. 23 This man, who was handed over by the determined will and foreknowledge of God, you fastened to a stake by the hand of lawless men, and you did away with him. 24 But God resurrected him by releasing him from the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held fast by it. . . . .
    God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”’ 36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.

    37 Now when they heard this, they were stabbed to the heart, and they said to Peter and the rest of the apostles: “Men, brothers, what should we do?” 38 Peter said to them: “Repent, and let each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins"....

     
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