An Omnipotent & Omniscient God Cannot Exist

[Deeje]

Well, I'm almost tempted to say "My God!"

Apparently, you don't have one......so that would be a bit pointless.

Because you appear to know so very much about God -- including tons that you will never find in scripture

How well do you know scripture in order to make a statement like that? Am I speaking to a Biblical scholar or am I speaking to an atheist?
What makes you an expert on scripture?

-- that we can only assume that you and He are one and the same.

The words of the apostle Paul apply here I think....

"....no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God. 12 Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.

14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:11-16)

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Apparently, you don't have one......so that would be a bit pointless.



Ho well do you know scripture in order to make a statement like that? Am I speaking to a Biblical scholar or am I speaking to an atheist?
What makes you an expert on scripture?



The words of the apostle Paul apply here I think....

"....no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God. 12 Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.

14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ." (1 Corinthians 2:11-16)

What makes you an expert on scripture? Are we reading the words of a Jehovah's Witness or a biblical scholar?

 

[Spartan]

Clearly you didn't read my post. I'm talking about God knowing *his own* actions. That IS determinism.

God knowing the future is not determinism.

 

[night912]

I know people who are so full of their own opinion that they will continue to argue when there is no point.....

Glad to know that you know yourself.

Those who gotta have the last word to inflate an ego that is bigger than their intellect....sad.
Unless you have a degree in psychology, your assumptions are just your own opinion...worth as much as any other on these boards.

Hahaha. Just because your attempt at having the last word failed and backfired, you accuse me of doing what you did. I don't have a psychology degree nor do I need one for this. Like I said earlier, you don't need to be an expert to spot what you said and point it out to you. It's funny how you accused me of making assumptions when you were the one assuming that you know what and how exactly what is god is. The difference between me and you is that you assumed you know god as if he was you and you also assumed that I was talking about god, but I was talking about what you said. You put limitations on god then made the comment about wondering why people put limitations on god. I simply pointed that out.

I am putting you on ignore now. I have better things to do than feed your nonsense.
Bye.

You were so willing to engage in the discussion when you thought that I was talking about god, but after you saw the repost of what you said, realized that I was talking about your comment, you called it nonsense.

Lesson to be learned from all this. If you don't know how to cook your own food to feed the brain for a three course meal, don't assume that the other person is the same. Bringing in a small precook tv appetizer isn't going to be enough food for the brain in a three course meal.

 

[night912]

You're in error.

Foreknowledge is not determinism. God may well know the actions of people in the future, but he doesn't determine those actions for them. People make their own decisions in the future. God knows what they choose but doesn't make those choices for them. Piece of cake.

Don't be so rush to eat that piece of cake.

This is what I see from a lot of people who believe that about god and freewill. They will argue about god is the creator and all knowing, that he knows people's choices and their outcomes. Then they throw in freewill, suddenly now god has been reduced down to just and an observer having foreknowldge. They start off with being in the perspective of god, then end up with being in the perspective of us, the creation. What I usually bring up is that, at this point, they are ignoring the part where their claim about god being the creator. The first mover, the uncaused cause. If the creator already know the future results of his creation that he is planning to create then once he creates it, everything that happens from the very beginning to the far future of what he saw, is all determined.

EX:
If I am thinking of building two robots and know that ten years into the future Robot A kills Robot B so it can use Robot B's body to repair itself, once I build them, it is lready determined that Robot A will kill Robot B because I've built them in that way for them to end up like that. Let's not ignore the part where I'm not talking about us humans' kind of knowing. It's not just a high pro3bability of the future happening like tbat, it's supposed to be god's foreknowledge. So in this case, the foreknowledge of that event is for certain. It will happen 100% in that way. If that event does not happen, then that would mean that I don't really have the power of foresight because

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

How well do you know scripture in order to make a statement like that? Am I speaking to a Biblical scholar or am I speaking to an atheist?
What makes you an expert on scripture?

An ability to read -- and more importantly to read critically and with comprehension.

You?

 

[Muffled]

If God is omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.

Here's why:

If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

That's it. That's the proof.

So, theists, is your god omnipotent and not omniscient, omniscient and not omnipotent, or neither omnipotent nor omniscient? Those are the only options.

I believe if you are saying God is restricted by His will, I can live with that. It certainly is what I want.

 

[Muffled]

Seems illogical to argue logic about a being that is not constrained by the logic with which you argue.

I believe reason and order are characteristic of God. He rarely goes outside of it but maybe that is only a perception by us that some things are outside of reason.

 

[Muffled]

Being omniscient only IMO means knowing everything that exists. How could one have knowledge of something that doesn't exist?

Until the future becomes the present, it doesn't exist.

I believe God has told me that all of time exists but as we travel through it we have the opportunity to change it.

 

[night912]

How well do you know scripture in order to make a statement like that? Am I speaking to a Biblical scholar or am I speaking to an atheist?
What makes you an expert on scripture?

An ability to read -- and more importantly to read critically and with comprehension.

You?

Yes, the ability to read is important. Deeje's reasoning in regards to an atheist not knowing, is irrational and just plain silly. One could come up with any reasons similar to that and say one knows more than the other.

Who do you think knows more about biblical teaching, an atheist biblical scholar or a nine year old Christian kid?

 

[Spartan]

Don't be so rush to eat that piece of cake.

This is what I see from a lot of people who believe that about god and freewill. They will argue about god is the creator and all knowing, that he knows people's choices and their outcomes. Then they throw in freewill, suddenly now god has been reduced down to just and an observer having foreknowldge.

Sorry, that doesn't fit scripture. God is always able to step in and help an individual as an answer to prayer, or he can bring a Judgment and destroy and individual or a nation. Man's free will is thus limited. But he does have free will to a very large extent. So God is not reduced in the least. That's the part you're evidently missing.

 

[YoursTrue]

That is a good attitude to have. I also strive to do God's Will as much I am able to know it.

That is great. It took me (and takes now) time and prayer and study (reading the Bible) to get to know Him. Certainly not that I know everything. While this may sound simple, there are certain basics that I learned right away when I began learning what the Bible says. Stealing, fornicating, homosexual conduct. Even though our consciences tell us something isn't right when we do such things. Because it is written in our consciences or makeup from God. However, the Bible tells us explicitly what HE wants us to do to please Him. But there are more complicated or sensitive things that I also had to incorporate and still strive to do. Thanks for your post.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, the ability to read is important. Deeje's reasoning in regards to an atheist not knowing, is irrational and just plain silly. One could come up with any reasons similar to that and say one knows more than the other.

Who do you think knows more about biblical teaching, an atheist biblical scholar or a nine year old Christian kid?

It depends. Because knowledge of God does not depend on clerical training or scholarly teaching, although with the right attitude, one can learn or incorporate more complicated knowledge if one so desires. Such as: language and history and putting it all together.

 

[YoursTrue]

So then you would argue that God could indeed create a rock so heavy that He could not lift it?

Why would he?

Or would you argue that God could know that you are necessarily going to hell (because of course He knows everything) and yet hold onto the hope that you would reform your errant ways and escape that fate?

I'll be fascinated to see your response.

I know you didn't ask me, but I've learned that the punishment many imagine and teach that God will exact upon whatever (repentant or foreordained as imagined) is not in harmony with the Scriptures. I didn't always believe in God, but learning about Him, and the false concepts that many attach to what 'hell' really is really showed me that there are many false ideas that grabbed hold of many. I never believed in the idea of eternal physical or mental punishment in some afterlife of hell-fire or torture anyway, and so when I learned what the Bible really said, I cast that idea away.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

So then you would argue that God could indeed create a rock so heavy that He could not lift it?

Why would he?

I don't try and answer questions about why imaginary beings might do what they do.

However, this was merely a question of what it might actually mean to be "omnipotent," meaning able to do anything at all. I argued that at least that should be restricted to anything "logically possible," but was told that this was an unnecessary restriction. And if that is the case, then it doesn't matter why he might do something logically impossible, only that he could.

And that poses some very grave difficulties for anybody trying to come up with a reasonable and consistent theology.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't try and answer questions about why imaginary beings might do what they do.

But you pose them. Anyway, like I have said, I've worked for sci-fi writers, and they have good imaginations sometimes.

However, this was merely a question of what it might actually mean to be "omnipotent," meaning able to do anything at all. I argued that at least that should be restricted to anything "logically possible," but was told that this was an unnecessary restriction. And if that is the case, then it doesn't matter why he might do something logically impossible, only that he could.

And that poses some very grave difficulties for anybody trying to come up with a reasonable and consistent theology.

No, it doesn't. Not for anyone that understands the Bible and wants a relationship with God.

 

[Deeje]

An ability to read -- and more importantly to read critically and with comprehension.

You?

I read the Bible before I became a JW but I had no idea what any of it really meant as a whole. It’s like having bits of the jigsaw puzzle but not knowing where to put all the pieces. The whole picture is in the box but without being able to put all the pieces together, the puzzle remains a puzzle.

If you had no guide (the picture on the box) would you even attempt it?

The Bible requires a guide. (Acts 8:26-38) It is deliberately NOT a book that you can just pick up and read.....it is a book that must be studied because it requires God’s spirit to furnish the correct understanding. Without it, you have what we see in Christendom....thousands of sects who have interpreted the scriptures to suit their own ideas about God and his Christ. All you have there is confusion. Nothing fits....no one really knows who God is, or what his kingdom is. Unless you get that right, nothing makes any sense.

There is a ‘big picture’ and once you see it, everything becomes crystal clear.....all the pieces fit and it’s amazing! All that is taking place in the world at present was foretold......it’s what is coming after this that is exciting.....the blessings of the kingdom will “come”, so that God’s will can be “done on earth as it is in heaven n heaven”. This is what Christ taught us to pray for.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I read the Bible before I became a JW but I had no idea what any of it really meant as a whole. It’s like having bits of the jigsaw puzzle but not knowing where to put all the pieces. The whole picture is in the box but without being able to put all the pieces together, the puzzle remains a puzzle.

If you had no guide (the picture on the box) would you even attempt it?

The Bible requires a guide. (Acts 8:26-38) It is deliberately NOT a book that you can just pick up and read.....it is a book that must be studied because it requires God’s spirit to furnish the correct understanding. Without it, you have what we see in Christendom....thousands of sects who have interpreted the scriptures to suit their own ideas about God and his Christ. All you have there is confusion. Nothing fits....no one really knows who God is, or what his kingdom is. Unless you get that right, nothing makes any sense.

There is a ‘big picture’ and once you see it, everything becomes crystal clear.....all the pieces fit and it’s amazing! All that is taking place in the world at present was foretold......it’s what is coming after this that is exciting.....the blessings of the kingdom will “come”, so that God’s will can be “done on earth as it is in heaven n heaven”. This is what Christ taught us to pray for.

And yet I note that you belong to a pretty small sect (8.5 million out of nearly 2 billion Christians), that has managed to convince itself that all those other Christians just aren't as wise as you, just don't have "God's spirit" furnishing the correct understanding.

To me, that takes significant hubris, and besides has nothing by way of evidence to demonstrate that contention. Therefore, I feel quite justified in discounting it.

 

[Deeje]

And yet I note that you belong to a pretty small sect (8.5 million out of nearly 2 billion Christians), that has managed to convince itself that all those other Christians just aren't as wise as you, just don't have "God's spirit" furnishing the correct understanding.

This too was foretold.....

1) “Few” are on the road to life, so “many” doesn’t mean saved. The “many” are on the other road. (Matthew 7:13-14) Numbers mean nothing.....God is interested in quality not quantity.

2) According to Daniel’s prophesy on “the time of the end”, God was going to cleanse and refine his worshippers. So we would expect to see the emergence of a ‘cleansed and refined’ people in this period.
If cleansing and refining were required, then it speaks of the impurities and soiling that God’s worship received since the foretold apostasy began after the first century. See Jesus' parable of the "wheat and the weeds". (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43)

Daniel explains that the “wicked” would refuse the cleansing and therefore receive no insight or understanding. (Daniel 12:4; 9-10) God's definition of wickedness includes disobedience to his commands. To introduce beliefs into Christianity from pagan sources and then teach these as doctrines is something God will not tolerate. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

To me, that takes significant hubris, and besides has nothing by way of evidence to demonstrate that contention.

Then Jesus could have been accused of the same thing. He had nothing good to say about the religious leaders of his day and they wanted to kill him. Nothing new here. (John 15:18-21)

Therefore, I feel quite justified in discounting it.

That is your prerogative.....its why we have free will. God allows us to choose our own destiny. That's fair isn't it?

 

[osgart]

Omnipotent means that humanity can learn all its lessons in the blink of an eye without undue exposure to evil nor being a blameless victim.

Omnipotent means evil is defeated, and all is redeemed in an instant.

Most God believers are simply unaware of the ugliest sides of reality.

How is eating animals to survive by necessity a Supreme Divine plan?

I might look for a superintellect, with limited power to create and form reality. But a Supreme omniscient being would only make a Supreme physical reality and not a vast junkyard of toxic, unliveable waste galaxies.