An Omnipotent & Omniscient God Cannot Exist

[YoursTrue]

God does not actually change His Mind, because as an omniscient Being, God knew what He would do all along.

He knows what he wants to do and no one can stop his hand. But he can listen to those he cares for and change his mind. Why not? But you do bring up an interesting point which I shall look into. (per the Bible...that is how I know, or relate to God)

 

[YoursTrue]

God does not actually change His Mind, because as an omniscient Being, God knew what He would do all along.

Here's an interesting point to think about. Many people claim God produces everything. Do you think, for instance, after millions of years of practice, he produced the Nazis or the Ku Klux Klan? This is not referring to his omniscience but to his will. It's a side note to think about.

 

[blü 2]

If God is omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.

Here's why:

If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

Not if God were omnipresent, or outside the fishbowl extradimensionally looking in. You'll recall that St Augustine (the one from Hippo) says to God, anni tui omnes simul stant ─ for you, all years exist ['stand'] at the same time. And a god who's omnipotent can make [him]self omnipresent or extradimensional or whatever as pleases [him]. On this view the deists were right ─ when God made the universe, nothing more was required ─ it had already done (in three spatial and one temporal dimension) everything [he]'d ever intended it to do. It's only us who can't see the future.

If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

If a god is omnipotent then [he] can make [him]self omniscient any time [he] likes.

(I've never been happy with the idea that God can't be omnipotent because [he] can't make a square circle. That's simply a game of definitions and identities. Besides, we might imagine an answer from quantum physics in which the one thing was a square and a circle, the one in superposition on the other.

More promising, I think, is the idea that one thing an otherwise omnipotent God couldn't do is make a perfect and distinct copy of [him]self and co-exist with it in the one frame of reference ─ say, the same multiverse.)

 

[Trailblazer]

He knows what he wants to do and no one can stop his hand. But he can listen to those he cares for and change his mind. Why not? But you do bring up an interesting point which I shall look into. (per the Bible...that is how I know, or relate to God)

My point was that what we consider God changing His Mind is not really God changing His Mind because God knew what He would do all along, since God knows the past present and future all at once. So God new He would do what we did not know He would do before it happened....
This is a difficult concept to grasp.

Yes, God can answer prayers if He chooses to, but since God is omniscient, God knew He would answer that prayer all along even though the answer was contingent upon something we did...
Maybe this will help you understand.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.

Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133​

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”

What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...

 

[Trailblazer]

Here's an interesting point to think about. Many people claim God produces everything. Do you think, for instance, after millions of years of practice, he produced the Nazis or the Ku Klux Klan? This is not referring to his omniscience but to his will. It's a side note to think about.

No, I do not believe God is responsible for things people choose to do or be. God gave us free will and He does not interfere with that and that is why there is evil in the world.

 

[YoursTrue]

My point was that what we consider God changing His Mind is not really God changing His Mind because God knew what He would do all along, since God knows the past present and future all at once. So God new He would do what we did not know He would do before it happened....
This is a difficult concept to grasp.

Yes, God can answer prayers if He chooses to, but since God is omniscient, God knew He would answer that prayer all along even though the answer was contingent upon something we did...
Maybe this will help you understand.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.

Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133​

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”

What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...

You know what? I don't really go into the mind of God, since he is God and I am not. I believe He is all-powerful. All mighty. I read and try to understand the holy Bible. He can do whatever He wants, and He created Adam and Eve with free will. They knew intuitively what they were capable of, and God told them what He wanted and did not want them to do. Eve was deceived and God permitted that. He did not stop her from listening to the serpent. That is free will.
God did not know what they would do before they did it. He was not ignorant as we consider it, but He chose not to program them, or foreordain their actions. That is because He is God. We are not. I strive to do his will insofar as I am able to.

 

[YoursTrue]

No, I do not believe God is responsible for things people choose to do or be. God gave us free will and He does not interfere with that and that is why there is evil in the world.

Right. But He decides what the final outcome will be. He has already determined what that final outcome is (Revelation 21:1-5) but He does not program us to fit into that new heavens and new earth. He can reach us though.

 

[YoursTrue]

My point was that what we consider God changing His Mind is not really God changing His Mind because God knew what He would do all along, since God knows the past present and future all at once. So God new He would do what we did not know He would do before it happened....
This is a difficult concept to grasp.

Yes, God can answer prayers if He chooses to, but since God is omniscient, God knew He would answer that prayer all along even though the answer was contingent upon something we did...
Maybe this will help you understand.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.

Know thou, O fruit of My Tree, that the decrees of the Sovereign Ordainer, as related to fate and predestination, are of two kinds. Both are to be obeyed and accepted. The one is irrevocable, the other is, as termed by men, impending. To the former all must unreservedly submit, inasmuch as it is fixed and settled. God, however, is able to alter or repeal it. As the harm that must result from such a change will be greater than if the decree had remained unaltered, all, therefore, should willingly acquiesce in what God hath willed and confidently abide by the same.

The decree that is impending, however, is such that prayer and entreaty can succeed in averting it.

God grant that thou who art the fruit of My Tree, and they that are associated with thee, may be shielded from its evil consequences.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133​

Note that it says it “can succeed” not that it “will succeed.”

What that amounts to is that we are completely at the mercy of God...

Again, God knows what will succeed and what will not succeed, so I do agree that He can deal with humans, considering that "we are dust." Jesus prayed. God explained things to his servants, such as Daniel, Isaiah, Moses and others. Some, like Moses, argued with God Almighty, and God loved them enough to cope with that.

 

[Trailblazer]

He was not ignorant as we consider it, but He chose not to program them, or foreordain their actions. That is because He is God. We are not. I strive to do his will insofar as I am able to.

That is a good attitude to have. I also strive to do God's Will as much I am able to know it.

 

[RedDragon94]

If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions,

So the amount of power one has automatically makes one ignorant about one's future decisions?

as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

So if I have power that means that I can't decide what I'm going to do when I know that a certain problem will arise in my life?

If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

That's all conditioned upon us knowing what God will do in the future. Isn't it? I mean, the truth is nobody really knows what God will do.

And I'm only arguing all this because you are missing the fact that omnipotence and omniscience are both powers of this infinite being, therefore they're in essence one and the same. Whether or not there is being such as this is at best unknowable, or at worst unlikely. Why argue, you ask? Because there are good people in both groups (non-theistic, theistic) and our problems aren't really caused by a creed or lack thereof. They're caused by ignorance and hatred. That's all I got to say really.

 

[night912]

What proof is in your writing? LOL Don't answer that.....

The part where I said that you put limitations on your god and showed your comment, where you wrote about the limitations of your god. It doesn't matter which writings you pick, they both prove that you put limitations on your god. Like that answer?.

 

[Spartan]

If God is omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.

Here's why:

If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

That's it. That's the proof.

So, theists, is your god omnipotent and not omniscient, omniscient and not omnipotent, or neither omnipotent nor omniscient? Those are the only options.

You're in error.

Foreknowledge is not determinism. God may well know the actions of people in the future, but he doesn't determine those actions for them. People make their own decisions in the future. God knows what they choose but doesn't make those choices for them. Piece of cake.

 

[Trailblazer]

Piece of cake.

Yes, I am glad someone understands.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

You're in error.

Foreknowledge is not determinism. God may well know the actions of people in the future, but he doesn't determine those actions for them. People make their own decisions in the future. God knows what they choose but doesn't make those choices for them. Piece of cake.

Clearly you didn't read my post. I'm talking about God knowing *his own* actions. That IS determinism.

 

[1213]

...This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. ...

That is not true. That He knows what He will choose, doesn’t restrict his ability to choose, it just means He knows what He will choose.

 

[Deeje]

The part where I said that you put limitations on your god and showed your comment, where you wrote about the limitations of your god. It doesn't matter which writings you pick, they both prove that you put limitations on your god. Like that answer?.

I know people who are so full of their own opinion that they will continue to argue when there is no point.....

Those who gotta have the last word to inflate an ego that is bigger than their intellect....sad.
Unless you have a degree in psychology, your assumptions are just your own opinion...worth as much as any other on these boards.

I am putting you on ignore now. I have better things to do than feed your nonsense.
Bye.

 

[McBell]

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Seems illogical to argue logic about a being that is not constrained by the logic with which you argue.

So then you would argue that God could indeed create a rock so heavy that He could not lift it?

Or would you argue that God could know that you are necessarily going to hell (because of course He knows everything) and yet hold onto the hope that you would reform your errant ways and escape that fate?

I'll be fascinated to see your response.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

yes
yes

He can also create a rock so heavy he cannot lift and then lift said rock whenever he likes.

Not to mention his collection of squared circles and oval triangles.

Okay, what have we learned: nothing at all about God, but that you cannot think rationally.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Proof? That is not proof...it is uniformed reasoning based on ignorance of who and what God is, and what he is accomplishing by his permission of evil in this world. It is clear that you have no idea.....but is that ignorance by choice? Do you really want to know, or are you just happy to throw God under the bus because he doesn't act the way you think he should?

God is not an equation.....God is the Creator of all things, who knows everything there is to know about everything in existence. He created it all. He has the ability to transcend time to foresee the outcome of all eventualities and decisions. He can then decide which course to take for the long term benefit of all.

He is Omnipotent...all powerful....but his power is always controlled by his other cardinal attributes.....Justice, Wisdom and Love, which means that he can use his unlimited power in a limited way when he has to.

He is Omniscient...he knows everything he wants to know. But just because he can know everything, doesn't mean he has to act on what he knows. His Love, Justice, Wisdom and Power dictate his actions at all times. He knows when to act and when to step back.

You also leave out a very important element.....God is an educator. He gave his intelligent creatures free will and allowed them to exercise it. He did not prevent them from abusing it, but simply placed disobedience as a capital offense worthy of death. They knew that obedience meant continued life and that disobedience meant a death sentence. God was teaching them valuable lessons that would benefit them for eternity if they chose wisely....and even if they didn't.

God had a purpose in putting intelligent life on this carefully prepared planet.....it may have been the first steps in populating a universe so vast that humans cannot even calculate its magnitude. We do not know what God's overall purpose for the universe is, but we do know why he put us here on this planet and what he commanded the first humans to do. He assigned them as caretakers, equipped with sufficient intelligence and moral attributes to act as his representative here. But free will was in that mix and it too was designed to facilitate actions when the need arose to handle things as God would handle them himself. But free will was to be exercised only within the parameters set by God. Free will was never really "free", but when exercised as God commanded, it would be a wonderful asset in the management of this earth with its creatures and with fellow humans.

But things took a turn away from what God originally purposed....soon after the creation of humankind, the Bible tells us that another free willed creature hijacked the human race and lured them into choosing him as their god and ruler.
God had two choices (as far as I can see).....he could have foreseen the consequences and acted to put the rebels to death straight away, saving mankind from all the trauma and tragedy that he knew would come....but what would that have proven? Only that God is more powerful...it would not have addressed the lies that satan told and the accusations he made about God's motives....the devil never once challenged God's power.....he challenged his sovereign right to set appropriate limits for his free willed creatures. Eliminating the rebels would not answer those challenges...so God decided to allow the humans to reap the full consequences of what they had sown, largely without his interference. He would never leave them but instead he would guide them to do the right thing.....but never forcing it. Our obedience had to come from the heart.

God chose to use this rebellion as a learning curve for all of his intelligent creation, both in heaven and on earth. He gave the new, self-appointed god a free hand to prove himself to be the better choice for ruler of mankind. We have been living through that period since creation so that all humans can experience what its like to have satan as their god, ruling over this earth through his appointees. At the end of this period....(I believe that what we are seeing right now is proof that we are nearing the end of the present system of things) God will step in and rectify all the damage that the devil has wrought on this world and his activities have all been recorded so that no one in the future will ever be able to raise those issues again. The precedents are now set and humankind have to face what is for them an uncertain future.....it is not uncertain for those who know God and who are doing his will amid the madness.

This is crunch time....decisions have to be made before God brings the curtain down on this satanic world. We are either on his side...or we are not. We get to choose our own destiny.

Well, I'm almost tempted to say "My God!"

Because you appear to know so very much about God -- including tons that you will never find in scripture -- that we can only assume that you and He are one and the same.