1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured An Omnipotent & Omniscient God Cannot Exist

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,011
    Ratings:
    +2,103
    Religion:
    Atheist
    If God is omnipotent, then he can't be omniscient.

    If God is omniscient, then he can't be omnipotent.

    Here's why:

    If God is omnipotent, then he can do anything he wants. This would mean that he cannot know his future actions, as if he did, his future actions would be constrained by his knowledge of the future, since he would not be able to perform an action that he knew he would not perform. Thus, if God is omnipotent, he can't be omniscient.

    If God is omniscient, then he knows everything, including all events in the future. Thus, his future actions are constrained by his knowledge of what he will do, and he cannot act contrary to his own knowledge of his own future actions. Thus, if God is omniscient, then he cannot be omnipotent.

    That's it. That's the proof.

    So, theists, is your god omnipotent and not omniscient, omniscient and not omnipotent, or neither omnipotent nor omniscient? Those are the only options.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    44,480
    Ratings:
    +8,776
    Seems illogical to argue logic about a being that is not constrained by the logic with which you argue.
     
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 2
  3. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2011
    Messages:
    14,282
    Ratings:
    +5,768
    Religion:
    Atheist Libertarian
    Being omniscient only IMO means knowing everything that exists. How could one have knowledge of something that doesn't exist? :shrug:

    Until the future becomes the present, it doesn't exist.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Winner Winner x 1
  4. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,011
    Ratings:
    +2,103
    Religion:
    Atheist
    So God isn't constrained by logic? Can God create a married bachelor?
     
  5. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2016
    Messages:
    3,011
    Ratings:
    +2,103
    Religion:
    Atheist
    My definition of omniscient could be amended to include the future, then.
     
  6. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2013
    Messages:
    3,182
    Ratings:
    +614
    Religion:
    one year re-baptized into Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    I'll go with God is omniscient.
     
  7. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    44,480
    Ratings:
    +8,776
    yes
    yes

    He can also create a rock so heavy he cannot lift and then lift said rock whenever he likes.

    Not to mention his collection of squared circles and oval triangles.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 3
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    25,489
    Ratings:
    +8,425
    He ideally knows the future before it even exists. They say god can't be understood by "human" logic. No credit to humanoids at all.
     
  9. Bird123

    Bird123 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,760
    Ratings:
    +313


    How about this: You base all your logical answers within the physical laws of this universe. Choosing not to see anything except the physical laws of this universe with it's time based causality nature, you become blind to all the possibilities. You are unable to conceive of anything else. Widen the view.

    Quantum physics is showing the possibility of many dimensions. How would a dimension without time fit in your explanations? Clearly there is more that we do not know than do know.

    I remain open to all possibilities. I strive toward Discovery. I find that labels and often descriptions fall short because so often there is much more to Discover. This leaves the labels and their descriptions lacking.

    This is what I do know. WE are Spiritual beings in our true natures. Spiritual beings are not limited to the physical laws of the universe. This universe exists only because it's time based causal nature is Perfect for learning. WE are trapped within our physical bodies simply because it traps us within these physical laws limiting us to only the lessons at hand.

    What I do know of God is this: God is very very Smart. God works on multiple levels with multiple views. WE are but mere ants. With that in mind, one should never assume they have the entire story. There is so much more to learn. Yes, Intelligence exists far beyond that of mankind.

    AS for myself, I am going to wait until I discover much much more before I attempt to place a label on what God is or isn't. This Hungry student can't wait for my next great lesson. I do not want to hurt your feelings, however this one isn't it.

    That's what I see. It's very clear!!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2005
    Messages:
    44,480
    Ratings:
    +8,776
    Or perhaps he knows every single outcome from every single action?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,844
    Ratings:
    +3,505
    Religion:
    Judaism
    seems to me this thread belongs in a debate forum...
     
  12. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2019
    Messages:
    5,844
    Ratings:
    +3,505
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Anyone who is reading a book has the choice to read the last pages first, and yet most people don't. Most people don't like spoilers.

    Understanding why dissolves the objection raised in the OP.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    25,489
    Ratings:
    +8,425
    Probably. How does it conflict with being all powerful (i.e. OP)?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    11,132
    Ratings:
    +5,909
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Proof? That is not proof...it is uniformed reasoning based on ignorance of who and what God is, and what he is accomplishing by his permission of evil in this world. It is clear that you have no idea.....but is that ignorance by choice? Do you really want to know, or are you just happy to throw God under the bus because he doesn't act the way you think he should?

    God is not an equation.....God is the Creator of all things, who knows everything there is to know about everything in existence. He created it all. He has the ability to transcend time to foresee the outcome of all eventualities and decisions. He can then decide which course to take for the long term benefit of all.

    He is Omnipotent...all powerful....but his power is always controlled by his other cardinal attributes.....Justice, Wisdom and Love, which means that he can use his unlimited power in a limited way when he has to.

    He is Omniscient...he knows everything he wants to know. But just because he can know everything, doesn't mean he has to act on what he knows. His Love, Justice, Wisdom and Power dictate his actions at all times. He knows when to act and when to step back.

    You also leave out a very important element.....God is an educator. He gave his intelligent creatures free will and allowed them to exercise it. He did not prevent them from abusing it, but simply placed disobedience as a capital offense worthy of death. They knew that obedience meant continued life and that disobedience meant a death sentence. God was teaching them valuable lessons that would benefit them for eternity if they chose wisely....and even if they didn't.

    God had a purpose in putting intelligent life on this carefully prepared planet.....it may have been the first steps in populating a universe so vast that humans cannot even calculate its magnitude. We do not know what God's overall purpose for the universe is, but we do know why he put us here on this planet and what he commanded the first humans to do. He assigned them as caretakers, equipped with sufficient intelligence and moral attributes to act as his representative here. But free will was in that mix and it too was designed to facilitate actions when the need arose to handle things as God would handle them himself. But free will was to be exercised only within the parameters set by God. Free will was never really "free", but when exercised as God commanded, it would be a wonderful asset in the management of this earth with its creatures and with fellow humans.

    But things took a turn away from what God originally purposed....soon after the creation of humankind, the Bible tells us that another free willed creature hijacked the human race and lured them into choosing him as their god and ruler.
    God had two choices (as far as I can see).....he could have foreseen the consequences and acted to put the rebels to death straight away, saving mankind from all the trauma and tragedy that he knew would come....but what would that have proven? Only that God is more powerful...it would not have addressed the lies that satan told and the accusations he made about God's motives....the devil never once challenged God's power.....he challenged his sovereign right to set appropriate limits for his free willed creatures. Eliminating the rebels would not answer those challenges...so God decided to allow the humans to reap the full consequences of what they had sown, largely without his interference. He would never leave them but instead he would guide them to do the right thing.....but never forcing it. Our obedience had to come from the heart.

    God chose to use this rebellion as a learning curve for all of his intelligent creation, both in heaven and on earth. He gave the new, self-appointed god a free hand to prove himself to be the better choice for ruler of mankind. We have been living through that period since creation so that all humans can experience what its like to have satan as their god, ruling over this earth through his appointees. At the end of this period....(I believe that what we are seeing right now is proof that we are nearing the end of the present system of things) God will step in and rectify all the damage that the devil has wrought on this world and his activities have all been recorded so that no one in the future will ever be able to raise those issues again. The precedents are now set and humankind have to face what is for them an uncertain future.....it is not uncertain for those who know God and who are doing his will amid the madness.

    This is crunch time....decisions have to be made before God brings the curtain down on this satanic world. We are either on his side...or we are not. We get to choose our own destiny.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. night912

    night912 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2019
    Messages:
    586
    Ratings:
    +242
    Religion:
    Not religious
    That would make him not omnipotent. It means that eventhough he is powerful, he is still being controlled by something that is even more powerful than he is.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    11,132
    Ratings:
    +5,909
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Jehovah is the most powerful Being in existence.....he is able to control his power to be delivered wherever it is required, in whatever measure is needed....not too much, not too little.

    I have no idea why people want to put their own limitations on a limitless Being.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2020
    Messages:
    1,352
    Ratings:
    +50
    Religion:
    spiritualist
    God isn't real as a consciousness....for it is only human being males doing all of the terms of reference and talking discussing.

    If no humans existed, then nor would the practices of your God sciences exist either...and animals would just be surviving on a planet that supports their life.

    The theme God self is self imposed by the consciousness imposing it...for science compared self male human life to the body of stone.....but not just the presence of the body of the stone.....watching/researching a vision of stone being removed/disintegrated or dematerialized by the o UFO.

    The theme science applied human male reasoning.

    In that exact history is where you impose what your belief of God the O stone fused history meant in your mind and in your male brotherhood life as the inventor of the state SCIENCE.

    After they applied a o UFO fake God, non present burning radiating God theme and irradiated their own life....then encoded in the atmospheric spirit body was his man/male image and his man/male voice...seeing he sacrificed his own life to apply his choice SCIENCE, how to convert God.

    As the God presence was already gone, it was a pretty arrogant choice on his behalf to claim that he knew personally what his future would be.

    For he never owned the practice science until he chose it.
     
  18. MonkeyFire

    MonkeyFire Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,687
    Ratings:
    +292
    Religion:
    Faithful Jesus believer
    If God is omnipotent he can do anything he wants including being omniscient.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,355
    Ratings:
    +6,464
    Religion:
    Mystics
    Being omnipotent doesn't mean being constrained by will. It's about being the observer of all that is. If you will all that is, there is no constraint. You're looking at it from the standpoint of here and now--god doesn't have to.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  20. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2006
    Messages:
    39,355
    Ratings:
    +6,464
    Religion:
    Mystics
    We didn't say he isn't constrained by grammar.
     
Loading...