An irrefutable proof that Jesus is God

[Bethel]

​

Don't forget that both Paul and the author of John see Jesus as the gnostic demiurge,

I wonder what you'll make up next.
No doubt you'll show us.

 

[Bethel]

I'm guessing that you fall into category A, you willfully ignore reality.

Ignoring reality is the province of the unbeliever.

 

[Bethel]

1) The bible claims that God is a moral being.
2) In the bible God condones slavery.
That was easy.

Actually God does not condone slavery.
What God condones is Man's free will, and in many cases throughout the ages, man has made a slave of other men.
Jesus came to set us free.

A lot of unbelievers have this idea that because EVIL is found in the world that God must be in control of it, and in some Calvinist minds, they claim that God creates evil.

The reality is, you get to do what you want to do, as this is how free will functions.

The foolish, who lack common sense or natural understanding.....they look at the world of evil, and conclude that because MEN are evil, and MEN create evil, then God is to blame.
The wise understand that you can make a baby, and raise a child, and you can hope that they dont turn out to be liars, murderers, rapists, Hitler........but, you as the parent are not in control of how a person thinks or behaves once they are an adult.
So, it is with God. He gives all of humanity RIGHT OF CHOICE< and if they use this to make the world a hateful, hate filled, place, then blame man for what they do and cause......as this is the truth.

 

[Bethel]

To be clear I am not advocating for Islam nor for a particular understanding of it. I am most certainly not advocating for @Link with whose views I have very little in common. However, for someone who stated when he joined that he was here to share and learn, you’d never know it from your posts.

Call and response is the life of a forum.
People write, people respond.
If you have an issue with me doing this, you are welcome to find something else to do.

 

[blü 2]

I wonder what you'll make up next.
No doubt you'll show us.

How do you account for the gnosticism in their writings, not present in the synoptics? How do you account for Jesus, God's companion in heaven, creating the material universe? Why do they think Jesus, not God, did that? Why don't the authors of Mark, Matthew or Luke, agree?

 

[viole]

I believe and say that Revelation 2:23 is an irrefutable proof that Jesus is God.

and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

Look carefully, Jesus says that he is He who knows the inner man and will judge man.
But there is only one who knows the inner man and will be the judge in the end, and that is God.
Conclusion: Jesus is God.

Let us now look at Jeremiah 17:10.
I am Yahweh who search the heart, I test the mind, to give to each person according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.
In the OT, God speaks that He is YHWH who knows the inner man and will be the judge.
Jesus says that He is He who...
God in the OT says that He is YHWH who...
Conclusion: Jesus is YHWH.

When Jesus said that He is He, He meant that He is YHWH.
In the Hebrew language, the letter Yod is a prefix and means "He". With HWH at the end, YHWH means HE IS.

When Jesus once said that He is He, hundreds of people drew back and fell to the ground before him because they knew what He meant.

Now then, when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground. John 18:6

Read the Bible, often the Scripture says things like: and Jesus knew what was in their hearts or and Jesus knew their thoughts.
He is truly the creator of all things.

I would suggest to add that "irrefutable truth" is, at best, under the assumption that "the Bible is irrefutable truth". Which is, to put it mildly, controversial.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Bethel]

How do you account for the gnosticism in their writings, not present in the synoptics? How do you account for Jesus, God's companion in heaven, creating the material universe? Why do they think Jesus, not God, did that? Why don't the authors of Mark, Matthew or Luke, agree?

""""""""""How do you account for the gnosticism in their writings, not present in the synoptics? """""""""""""

Gnostics do not believe in the reality of "sin".
If you research the father of gnosticism......(Valentinus), you'll note that He teaches that :

1.) no christ is needed, no cross is needed, as SIN does not exist.

So, that false teaching, has found its way into many minds, and many theologies.

So, a Theology that refuses to accept Christ on the Cross, can't be allowed to be a part of the Word of God.
How could it be, as it denies it.


How do you account for Jesus, God's companion in heaven, creating the material universe?


To say that Christ is God, as "One", tho this is 2 manifestations of the ONE, is a mystical reality.
Christianity has tried to explain HOW to understand, Jesus as God, and God as Father, ....for 2000 yrs.
And this is a mystical truth, that can't be understood logically.
Spiritual truth, isn't designed for the natural mind to understand, so, this is why unbelievers can't hear it, but they can be confused by it.

I can explain it, but its still mystical revelation.

Think of it like this...... God SPOKE........"He said. LET THERE BE......." and creation came into existence.
That is the WORD of creation, and Jesus, before He was manifested on earth, was the WORD, who was with God and is God. John 1
So, God Spoke, and The WORD who is Christ, was the omnipotent cause of all creation.
When you read John 1:10 or Colossians 1:16, that explain that JESUS is the creator and all power, this is referencing Christ as the Word, who was with God, and is God, in Genesis 1.
This is Mystical Truth that the logical mind, or the natural mind, cannot relate to, at all.
The New Testament tells us, that to understand the Spiritual, you have to "spiritually discern" it, and that means that the natural mind, the logical and analytical perception, is not able to relate to, comprehend, or grasp, spiritual truth.


"""""""Why do they think Jesus, not God, did that? Why don't the authors of Mark, Matthew or Luke, agree?"""""""

Genesis teaches as does Paul that Jesus is God the "Word" who became a man.
1 Timothy 3:16

And about the "Gospels"...
Many unbelievers have tried to read some of the bible, including the 4 Gospels, and they noticed that each one is telling the same story, yet, its slightly different.....A few added facts, a few things one Gospel omits.....etc.
Why is that?
Why do the 4 Gospels, when giving their eyewitness account of Jesus, not all say the same thing, word for word?

Well, let me explain this...

Lets say all of the readers of this Post, and me, are standing on a street corner, and we witness a horrible traffic accident.
All of us see this car not stop for a RED LIGHT< and another car crashes into it.
Terrible wreck.

Now, the Police show up, and they interview all of us, one by one.

"what did you see, describe it".

All of us saw the car wreck, and yet, all of our stories are going to be DIFFERENT, as each of us, saw it as WE saw it, yet, all saw it.
This does not mean we are lying, if each of us has a eyewitness account that is slightly different then the next person who saw the wreck.
This is TRUTH....>Its the TRUTH we are all telling, yet, all of us notice different DETAILS.
See it?
See that Reader?

So, when you read the 4 Gospels, and each Gospel account has a slightly different eyewitness account of the SAME EVENT, ..... seeing Jesus and knowing Jesus....then that is THE TRUTH, as each person, has a slightly different eyewitness experience, yet, its true.

See, if the 4 Gospels were all the same words, same exact sentences, then you would know that this can't be true, as 4 people telling the same eyewitness account, tell it slightly differently, regarding what they literally saw.

 

[blü 2]

""""""""""How do you account for the gnosticism in their writings, not present in the synoptics? """""""""""""

Gnostics do not believe in the reality of "sin".

Please don't shout.

If you research the father of gnosticism......(Valentinus), you'll note that He teaches that :

I'm not talking about Valentinus. I'm talking about Paul and the author of John. That Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God, and created the material universe, and is the mediator between a remote and utterly spiritual being are all gnostic ideas, with Jesus in the roll of the demiurge.

To say that Christ is God, as "One", tho this is 2 manifestations of the ONE, is a mystical reality.

But the Jesus of Paul is NOT God, but 'Lord', distinct from God; and the Jesus of John is even more emphatic that he isn't God.

Christianity has tried to explain HOW to understand, Jesus as God, and God as Father, ....for 2000 yrs.

Well, maybe 1600-1700 years ─ the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented till the 4th century CE and given an historical Jesus he'd never heard of such a thing, nor had any of the NT authors; and anyway (as I've already said) expressly denied he was God in all five of his versions.

Think of it like this...... God SPOKE........"He said. LET THERE BE......." and creation came into existence.

Except that the Jesus of Paul, and the Jesus of John, created the material universe, according to their respective authors, and you can ignore what Genesis says.

When you read John 1:10 or Colossians 1:16, that explain that JESUS is the creator and all power, this is referencing Christ as the Word, who was with God, and is God, in Genesis 1.

No it's not. All five versions of Jesus ─ Paul's, Mark's, Matthew's, Luke's and John's ─ say out loud and proud they're NOT God, and none of them ever claims to be God. If you're not aware of this then just ask me for chapter and verse and I'll set them out for you.

So, when you read the 4 Gospels, and each Gospel account has a slightly different eyewitness account of the SAME EVENT, ..... seeing Jesus and knowing Jesus....then that is THE TRUTH, as each person, has a slightly different eyewitness experience, yet, its true.

That's simply incorrect. None of the NT authors ever met an historical Jesus, for a start. They offer three irreconcilable models of Jesus too: Paul's and John's Jesuses, who preexisted in heaven with God and created the material universe; Mark's Jesus, who was just an ordinary Jew until on his baptism God adopted him as [his] son on the model of Psalm 2:7; and the Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke, who were born as the result of divine insemination of a virgin and as a result had God's Y-chromosome.

 

[F1fan]

Ignoring reality is the province of the unbeliever.

Irony at work.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I believe and say that Revelation 2:23 is an irrefutable proof that Jesus is God.

Nothing in the Bible is proof of anything apart from that the words in it were written down. To confirm anything in scripture, one must turn to other sources. For example, it has been confirmed archeologically that David was an actual king of the Jews about 1000 BCE, but you can't do that with scripture.

Also, what makes something a proof is that it convinces somebody that a particular idea is correct or incorrect (disproof). From what I can tell, those words haven't convinced anybody of anything here. People claiming to have a proof that convinces nobody reminds me of a comedian who says he has a killer set (a very funny stand-up routine), but nobody laughs.

Jesus did not die. His body did.

That's what death is - death of the body. That's how death is determined - the body stopped working. Pure mind is not considered life. Mind needn't be present to call something alive, but a functioning body of some sort is, whether that be a single cell, a bush, or a gazelle. Life as we know it is made of cells. Life includes growth, development, reproduction, repair, metabolism, homeostasis, and more. None of that is relevant to mind.

When creationists tell me that life must come from life, I point out that even they don't believe that. If they consider God alive, then that would be a life that didn't come from other life, and if they say that God isn't alive, then it's the life He created that didn't come from life.

Happens with scientists too. Ask 20 scientists one question, and you'll get 40 different answers

Nope. There's a reason why there are over 40,000 denominations of Christianity alone, but just one periodic table of the elements.

That’s inflation. Used to be it only took 8 to get 12 opinions.

Speaking of inflation, you might like this from Jon Stewart: "Yom Kippur. Greatest Jewish holiday ever. The Jewish day of atonement. You don’t ear for one day, all your sins for the year are wiped clean. Beat that with your little “Lent.” What is Lent? Forty days of absolution. Forty days to one day. Even in sin you’re paying retail."

 

[LactoseIntolerant]

I believe and say that Revelation 2:23 is an irrefutable proof that Jesus is God.

and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

Look carefully, Jesus says that he is He who knows the inner man and will judge man.
But there is only one who knows the inner man and will be the judge in the end, and that is God.
Conclusion: Jesus is God.

Let us now look at Jeremiah 17:10.
I am Yahweh who search the heart, I test the mind, to give to each person according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.
In the OT, God speaks that He is YHWH who knows the inner man and will be the judge.
Jesus says that He is He who...
God in the OT says that He is YHWH who...
Conclusion: Jesus is YHWH.

When Jesus said that He is He, He meant that He is YHWH.
In the Hebrew language, the letter Yod is a prefix and means "He". With HWH at the end, YHWH means HE IS.

When Jesus once said that He is He, hundreds of people drew back and fell to the ground before him because they knew what He meant.

Now then, when He said to them, “I am He,” they drew back and fell to the ground. John 18:6

Read the Bible, often the Scripture says things like: and Jesus knew what was in their hearts or and Jesus knew their thoughts.
He is truly the creator of all things.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is One.

Don't take away the Glory of God with silly doctrines.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually God does not condone slavery.
What God condones is Man's free will, and in many cases throughout the ages, man has made a slave of other men.
Jesus came to set us free.

A lot of unbelievers have this idea that because EVIL is found in the world that God must be in control of it, and in some Calvinist minds, they claim that God creates evil.

The reality is, you get to do what you want to do, as this is how free will functions.

The foolish, who lack common sense or natural understanding.....they look at the world of evil, and conclude that because MEN are evil, and MEN create evil, then God is to blame.
The wise understand that you can make a baby, and raise a child, and you can hope that they dont turn out to be liars, murderers, rapists, Hitler........but, you as the parent are not in control of how a person thinks or behaves once they are an adult.
So, it is with God. He gives all of humanity RIGHT OF CHOICE< and if they use this to make the world a hateful, hate filled, place, then blame man for what they do and cause......as this is the truth.

You are trying to have it both ways. The Bible tells us that God condones slavery. The Bible tells the Hebrews who they could buy slaves from. How much they could punish them (as long as you don't kill them outright you are okay) and even how to trick their fellow Hebrews into being lifelong slaves. And let's not forget that women were not treated as well as men even if they were Hebrews. Women sold into slavery were slaves forever. Hebrews were supposed to have a seven year limit, but that applied only to male Hebrews.

Also, getting back to the topic of this thread. The Bible is not "proof" of anything unless one already accepts the Bible. In reality the Bible is just the claim and is not the evidence.

 

[Muffled]

I believe that is only one of many although some people seem to think they can refute it.

 

[Muffled]

The witnesses chosen by God see the actions of people per Quran and God will talk through them to disbelievers on the day of judgment as God will not talk directly to disbelievers on the day of judgment per many verses.

The accounting they do is not their own though, but rather per command of God. They don't decide themselves but execute God's judgment.

The leader of the time takes account of all people per his time and is God's eye on his creation in the sense his vision is derived from God's vision and on the day of judgment every people will be called to their leader/witness/driver/captain.

The Imams of family of Mohammad (s) also said "we have states where we are he and he is us", but this doesn't mean they are on par or equal to God, but rather their light is totally from him and they are his face by which we turn to God.

I believe that is not the same thing as an incarnation. More often than not the imams are the blind leading the blind.

 

[Muffled]

Why should we take any of the Gospel/NT writers at their word when they get so much wrong?

I believe God testifies through me that in this regard they got it right.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe that is only one of many although some people seem to think they can refute it.

The Bible has been refuted. But believes tend to live in a state of denial.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I believe God testifies through me that in this regard they got it right.

You may believe that. That does not make it so.

 

[firedragon]

Actually God does not condone slavery.
What God condones is Man's free will, and in many cases throughout the ages, man has made a slave of other men.
Jesus came to set us free.

Actually, the Bible does allow slavery. It speaks of slaves, and that is not a linguistic discrepancy or any issue like that.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Acts 2:21

John 10:28

Can you give more details? The question is about how one is born again. These two verses tell about people being saved and getting eternal life but do not say this is the same as being born again.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

1 Corinthians 3:16

1 Corinthians 6:17

John 14:20

John 17:20-23

Again, these verses do tell about Christ being "in yu" but say nothing about "born again". Does any verse use the words born again and tell how ir happens?