An Eruv near where I live - thoughts please.

[rosends]

Do you understand supply and demand? If the area is predominantly Jewish the demand for non-kosher foods declines and the shops cannot make a living and close. This has happened in Prestwich.

Oh, how sad. This must be why Jews get so sad when non-Jews live somewhere. They can't find food. But that's OK, as long as YOU can find what you want, no one else should have the right to buy dinner. Heaven forbid a kosher restaurant opens.

 

[Altfish]

Oh, how sad. This must be why Jews get so sad when non-Jews live somewhere. They can't find food. But that's OK, as long as YOU can find what you want, no one else should have the right to buy dinner. Heaven forbid a kosher restaurant opens.

I give up, I thought I could have an intelligent discussion on here but you seem to be only capable of picking small parts of my argument and playing 'diddum' politics. And totally ignoring the other arguments which you can't mock so I assume you have no repost.
You have not listened to a word I have said, I ask a reasonable question why should one religion have a special position is a large area of town. You have spectacularly failed to answer it.

 

[rosends]

I give up, I thought I could have an intelligent discussion on here but you seem to be only capable of picking small parts of my argument and playing 'diddum' politics. And totally ignoring the other arguments which you can't mock so I assume you have no repost.
You have not listened to a word I have said, I ask a reasonable question why should one religion have a special position is a large area of town. You have spectacularly failed to answer it.

Your argument now is "why should one religion have a special position is a large area of town". The answer is simple. Because a town tries to accommodate the needs of its various constituents as long as doing so does not infringe on the rights of other constituents. Nothing in putting up an eiruv has any effect on you other than it will make your town attractive to people wanting to move in and this is what bothers you. You simply don't like having certain people live near you.

A halal restaurant would do the same thing. Opening a house of worship for any religion would do the same thing. Closing banks on Christmas is much more of a substantial imposition on non-Christians -- does it bother you? How about closing schools on Good Friday? Doesn't that accommodate a particular religion and make living in England attractive to one religion?

 

[GoodbyeDave]

I give up, I thought I could have an intelligent discussion on here.

Optimist!

 

[Flankerl]

You have not listened to a word I have said, I ask a reasonable question why should one religion have a special position is a large area of town. You have spectacularly failed to answer it.

And again: An Eruv does not give Jews a special position in an area of the town because it entails not a single right or position which non-Jews enjoy in civil society.

"An eruv ([ʔeˈʁuv]; Hebrew: עירוב‎‎, "mixture", also transliterated as eiruv or erub, plural: eruvin[ʔeʁuˈvin]) is a ritual enclosure that some Jewish communities, and especially Orthodox Jewish communities, construct in their neighborhoods as a way to permit Jewish residents or visitors to carry certain objects outside their own homes on Sabbath and Yom Kippur."

Or are non-Jews told to observe the Shabbat or other Jewish holidays? No? Okay then.

Optimist!

Implying you actually know what an Eruv is.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

Implying you actually know what an Eruv is.

Of course: there have been a couple of eruvim in North London for years. You can usually assume that I know at least as much about anything as most posters here

 

[Flankerl]

Of course: there have been a couple of eruvim in North London for years. You can usually assume that I know at least as much about anything as most posters here

So I have to assume that you are just against the idea of Jews carrying stuff on the Shabbat out of principle. Oh well.

 

[Altfish]

So I have to assume that you are just against the idea of Jews carrying stuff on the Shabbat out of principle. Oh well.

What a nasty person you are, he said nothing of the sort.
They can carry anything they want on the Shabbat if they just got over their ridiculous beliefs. Do you really think this all powerful being that they believe in really gives a damn what they carry on what day. Hasn't this deity got better things to worry about.

 

[Flankerl]

What a nasty person you are, he said nothing of the sort.
They can carry anything they want on the Shabbat if they just got over their ridiculous beliefs. Do you really think this all powerful being that they believe in really gives a damn what they carry on what day. Hasn't this deity got better things to worry about.

And I am the nasty person... oh well.

So a conclusion

- an Eruv does not give Jews more rights than non-Jews
- an Eruv does not take away rights of non-Jews
- for non-Jews its literally just a string in the sky
- Jews who care about it can now carry their prayer books or push their baby carriage to synagogue on Shabbat

Obvious reaction: They are doing this on purpose as a provocation and to take over the city!!!

 

[rosends]

What a nasty person you are, he said nothing of the sort.
They can carry anything they want on the Shabbat if they just got over their ridiculous beliefs. Do you really think this all powerful being that they believe in really gives a damn what they carry on what day. Hasn't this deity got better things to worry about.

So here is the heart of it. You are against all religions and any time anyone does anything to make the life of a believer easier (even when it has no effect on anyone else) you chafe because you want believers to be forced to give up their beliefs or suffer in silence.

How refreshing.

 

[Altfish]

You both ignored and didn't comment on my post about the effect of the eruv in North Manchester.

Perhaps you may pay attention to The Jewish Chronicle article...
http://thejewishchronicle.net/pages...+beckons+Jews++from+far+and+near &id=27229217

Yes, I am against all religions but only when their activities will have an affect on me, this one will.
When/if the eruv is granted the area will change notably - it has done so in other eruvian in this country, why should it be any different with this one? So, for a very small part of the community (which admittedly will grow) an area that is now diverse will become predominantly Jewish because their irrational belief trumps everyone else's right to a multi-cultural area.

Let's be honest the poles and wires are only there to fool your god. I think any reasonable god will be more concerned at that deception than if some mother pushes her child to the synagogue on the holy day.

 

[rosends]

You both ignored and didn't comment on my post about the effect of the eruv in North Manchester.

Perhaps you may pay attention to The Jewish Chronicle article...
http://thejewishchronicle.net/pages/full_story/push?article-As+London+prices+climb-+Manchester+beckons+Jews++from+far+and+near &id=27229217

Yes, I am against all religions but only when their activities will have an affect on me, this one will.
When/if the eruv is granted the area will change notably - it has done so in other eruvian in this country, why should it be any different with this one? So, for a very small part of the community (which admittedly will grow) an area that is now diverse will become predominantly Jewish because their irrational belief trumps everyone else's right to a multi-cultural area.

Let's be honest the poles and wires are only there to fool your god. I think any reasonable god will be more concerned at that deception than if some mother pushes her child to the synagogue on the holy day.

Let's look at two elements of your statement:
1. "the effect of the eruv" as evidenced by the article. This is what the article states the effect of the eruv is, "These improvements have made life easier for thousands of Haredi Jews and are attracting thousands more. And that is changing the nature of a community that, according to Myers, is losing its middle ground.

“Nowadays it’s either you’re very observant or almost not at all,” she said. “It didn’t used to be like that."

So the impact is on non-Chareidi Jews. They see the loss of a "middle ground" between very religious and not religious. Because this does not relate to you, the article states that there is no impact on you. It also fails to give any particulars about what daily impact having more visibly Jewish people around will have on anyone. It provides one person's perception of the demographic. That's it.

2. "because their irrational belief trumps everyone else's right to a multi-cultural area"
Can you show me where that right is detailed? Does it establish quotas for different minorities in order to ensure this diversity? Do governments check the birth certificates of all people who want to move in so as not to allow for any imbalance in numbers? Do they count how many churches are opened and how many Indian dishes are on the menu of the local restaurants? Is there a reason to think that the presence of people from one group would somehow eliminate the rights of existence of others? Have you protested in any case where too many left-handed people, red heads or Roma wanted to move somewhere?

I didn't think so.

 

[Flankerl]

Yes, I am against all religions but only when their activities will have an affect on me, this one will.
When/if the eruv is granted the area will change notably - it has done so in other eruvian in this country, why should it be any different with this one? So, for a very small part of the community (which admittedly will grow) an area that is now diverse will become predominantly Jewish because their irrational belief trumps everyone else's right to a multi-cultural area.

Just... don't sell? No? Ok.
And as rosends already wrote (I think even twice on these 3 pages) the change mainly affected other Jews who weren't "visibly" Jewish.

Let's be honest the poles and wires are only there to fool your god. I think any reasonable god will be more concerned at that deception than if some mother pushes her child to the synagogue on the holy day.

Good for you.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It all sounds like these constructs are nothing but "loop-holes" being sought to relieve believers the inconvenience of having to abide by true, original laws. So nothing new to see here. Though it is interesting how something so patently old-hat can still be so amusing to hear.

 

[Tumah]

It all sounds like these constructs are nothing but "loop-holes" being sought to relieve believers the inconvenience of having to abide by true, original laws. So nothing new to see here. Though it is interesting how something so patently old-hat can still be so amusing to hear.

There is no Biblical requirement to be inconvenienced. Its not a "who can suffer the most" game.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

There is no Biblical requirement to be inconvenienced. Its not a "who can suffer the most" game.

Didn't say there was. My only real point is that the moment you find yourself looking for loop-holes and completely getting away with it is the moment you might also realize that the law itself is possibly a bit daffy.

 

[Tumah]

Didn't say there was. My only real point is that the moment you find yourself looking for loop-holes and completely getting away with it is the moment you might also realize that the law itself is possibly a bit daffy.

That's like saying, driving within the speed limit is a loophole that proves that speeding laws are a bit daffy.
You don't get fined if you don't drive above the speed limit. Its not prohibited to carry in an eiruv.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

That's like saying, driving within the speed limit is a loophole that proves that speeding laws are a bit daffy.
You don't get fined if you don't drive above the speed limit. Its not prohibited to carry in an eiruv.

Driving within the speed limit is abiding by the law... not finding a loop-hole around it. A loop-hole would be something like flying a jet propelled hovercraft, above the speed limit, through the streets and saying to the officer who pulls you over: "Technically, I wasn't driving."

From what I have read and inferred, I think what we're talking about is different. Just because you tie some cord around an area does not make it "private property". What does the law state? Definitively? Once you know, then you might start the process of defining what falls within and without of the definitions of said law - what is, and is not a "loop-hole" or an excuse.

Oh, and the cops are in no way a divine power that is supposed to govern the very actions of my life. And THAT is the standard of law to which we are referring. Not some petty speeding ticket and being out $50.

 

[rosends]

Didn't say there was. My only real point is that the moment you find yourself looking for loop-holes and completely getting away with it is the moment you might also realize that the law itself is possibly a bit daffy.

Just calling it a Loop Hole imports all the judgment. If, instead, you recognize that it isn't a loop hole, but just a subtlety of the law, then it stops being subject to your disdain. I could say that certain drugs are illegal. But if a doctor prescribes them, they become legal. Prescriptions aren't a loop hole around a blanket illegality, but another aspect of the law which creates a category which simply isn't illegal.

 

[Tumah]

Driving within the speed limit is abiding by the law... not finding a loop-hole around it. A loop-hole would be something like flying a jet propelled hovercraft through the streets and saying to the officer who pulls you over: "Technically, I wasn't driving."

From what I have read and inferred, I think what we're talking about is different. Just because you tie some cord around an area does not make it "private property". What does the law state? Definitively? Once you know, then you might start the process of defining what falls within and without of the definitions of said law - what is, and is not a "loop-hole" or an excuse.

There are four types of domains in Jewish Law in a nutshell:
A private domain - a domain between 16 sq. inches and 26 sq feet that is enclosed on four sides.
A public domain - a domain that is intended for public use that is not enclosed is 23 feet wide and has 600,000 people travelling through it daily.
A karmilis - a domain that doesn't have 600,000 people travelling through it, but is also not enclosed (and therefore not considered a private domain). This domain is a Rabbinical domain and not a Biblical one (by Biblical Law its considered an exempt domain).
An exempt area - a domain smaller than 16 sq. inches or 40 inches above the ground.

The whole concept of an eiruv is taking a karmilis domain (which is only prohibited to carry in by Rabbinic decree so as to prevent confusion in an actual public domain) and upgrading it to a private domain by enclosing it.

So to bring this back. Technically there's no problem altogether. And the whole purpose of the prohibition is to prevent confusion. This issue is likewise satisfied through the erection of the eiruv. Its two different ways to fix the same problem.

Oh, and the cops are in no way a divine power that is supposed to govern the very actions of my life. And THAT is the standard of law to which we are referring. Not some petty speeding ticket and being out $50.

That's irrelevant here.