An Eruv near where I live - thoughts please.

[Politesse]

My two cents: You've reached a pretty sad moment in your life when you are legitimately angry at string.

 

[Tumah]

Being an expert in Jewish law doesn't help you know how close you can get to a high-voltage line without being in danger.

No, being an expert in putting up eiruvin does.

 

[rosends]

I can see that angle.

If you're putting stuff on poles without the pole owner's permission, that's a problem.

If the pole owner is a government and it's supporting and endorsing a religion by granting permission, that's a problem, too.

I agree that the erev tends to be nondescript from the ground: when I was staying in a hotel in Montreal, I would never have noticed the string if it weren't for a notice on the hotel desk warning patrons that only the back door of the hotel, and not the front door, leads into the erev - that prompted me to look for it.

what usually happens is that the (private) utility companies who set up and maintain the poles coordinate and do a bunch of the advising and some of the work. With the experts on board and with the permission of all concerned there is less of a problem.

 

[Altfish]

Yes, it would be horrible to have so many Jews and synagogues, and the imposition of making it difficult to buy non-kosher meat is a sorry state, indeed.

But why is that necessary, what's wrong with the status quo?

 

[Politesse]

What moment in life have you reached, if you are hanging string in a public area, in order to differentiate an area for a religious custom?

Probably one where string is important. All symbols look silly to an outsider, yes? I certainly don't see "home" as a strange or inaccessible concept, as metaphorical objects go.

 

[rosends]

But why is that necessary, what's wrong with the status quo?

Why pick a single arbitrary moment and decide that the status quo is that which is RIGHT NOW? People move in and out of neighborhoods. Do you always like freezing things the way they are? Why would something have to be wrong for Jews to want to move in. Maybe no one should have built homes. What was wrong with caves and the status quo for cavemen?

 

[Altfish]

Why pick a single arbitrary moment and decide that the status quo is that which is RIGHT NOW? People move in and out of neighborhoods. Do you always like freezing things the way they are? Why would something have to be wrong for Jews to want to move in. Maybe no one should have built homes. What was wrong with caves and the status quo for cavemen?

Maybe the status quo was a bad phrase, I don't know.
How would you feel if the area you lived in was going to change into an area that was designed to suit Muslims? That meant that the Muslim population would grow at an ever increasing rate in this localised zone.

 

[rosends]

Maybe the status quo was a bad phrase, I don't know.
How would you feel if the area you lived in was going to change into an area that was designed to suit Muslims? That meant that the Muslim population would grow at an ever increasing rate in this localised zone.

There is already a mosque and a sizable Muslim population where I live. The mayor is Muslim. So?
Do you fear that the Jews will run around and make you change who you are? Or is your biggest fear that it won't be easy to buy a particular brand of beef?

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

Nah they are going to miss out on the bacon butties

 

[Altfish]

There is already a mosque and a sizable Muslim population where I live. The mayor is Muslim. So?
Do you fear that the Jews will run around and make you change who you are? Or is your biggest fear that it won't be easy to buy a particular brand of beef?

My biggest fear is that a marvellous multi-cultural area will be changed by a silly belief that panders to less than 0.1% of the existing population of the area.

You can try a mock me all you like but you weren't at the meeting 2-years back when over 300 people crammed into a hotel meeting room for a 'consultation' exercise that has since been ignored. Apart from the promoters nobody spoke in favour of this divisive proposal.

 

[rosends]

My biggest fear is that a marvellous multi-cultural area will be changed by a silly belief that panders to less than 0.1% of the existing population of the area.

You can try a mock me all you like but you weren't at the meeting 2-years back when over 300 people crammed into a hotel meeting room for a 'consultation' exercise that has since been ignored. Apart from the promoters nobody spoke in favour of this divisive proposal.

So you are simply afraid that people who have a particular belief will live near you. Forget that that belief has nothing to do with you. Forget that the population won't outnumber you. You fear that a certain kind of people will show up.

I wasn't at whatever meeting you are talking about, but yes, I will continue to mock you because your bias and hateful attitude, if left alone, will fester and infect others.

So go water your fears in ignorance and hatred. I will point out your irrational behavior and make sure anyone who sees this thread knows that you don't like it when a particular group is allowed to carry house keys on Saturdays because it makes you uncomfortable.

 

[Flankerl]

My biggest fear is that a marvellous multi-cultural area will be changed by a silly belief that panders to less than 0.1% of the existing population of the area.

You can try a mock me all you like but you weren't at the meeting 2-years back when over 300 people crammed into a hotel meeting room for a 'consultation' exercise that has since been ignored. Apart from the promoters nobody spoke in favour of this divisive proposal.

Wait what?
If these Jews make up less than 0,1% of the population of the area... what is the problem again? Their shops are closed on Shabbat either way, with or without a string in the air. Its not like you could buy something from them on that day.
And I kinda doubt that these 0,1% of the population of the area make up 100% of the shop keepers. So the other shops are open on Shabbat.

There was one created in the Prestwich area of north Manchester; over 10,000 Jews now inhabit the area with 20 synagogues. Many shops shut on Saturday, try buying none kosher meat in the area.

You do realise that the Jews aren't at fault for this, right? For them to be able to move there the house owners need to be on board.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

what usually happens is that the (private) utility companies who set up and maintain the poles coordinate and do a bunch of the advising and some of the work. With the experts on board and with the permission of all concerned there is less of a problem.

Ah - okay. As long as unqualified people aren't messing around near power lines, I'm not really concerned.

 

[rosends]

Wait what?
If these Jews make up less than 0,1% of the population of the area... what is the problem again? Their shops are closed on Shabbat either way, with or without a string in the air. Its not like you could buy something from them on that day.
And I kinda doubt that these 0,1% of the population of the area make up 100% of the shop keepers. So the other shops are open on Shabbat.




You do realise that the Jews aren't at fault for this, right? For them to be able to move there the house owners need to be on board.

And clearly, the kosher shops are stopping any other shops from selling food. The Jews are forcing their religion on everyone!

 

[Altfish]

Wait what?
If these Jews make up less than 0,1% of the population of the area... what is the problem again? Their shops are closed on Shabbat either way, with or without a string in the air. Its not like you could buy something from them on that day.
And I kinda doubt that these 0,1% of the population of the area make up 100% of the shop keepers. So the other shops are open on Shabbat.

I don't know if your just misunderstanding me or doing it on purpose.
The people this will benefit, i.e. the orthodox Jews, currently make up about 0.1%, there are more Jewish residents who aren't as visible or observant (and if the public meeting was anything to go by aren't that bothered about the eruv either). There is an odd kosher shop and a local synagogue, that is fine. But will pubs, restaurants, bars, off-licences, non-kosher butchers and supermarkets survive in the long run?
I quote from someone who lives in the area of Prestwich which is an eruv near this proposed one...

"Having lived in South Prestwich for 21 years I have seen the area as well as Sedgley Park & Broughton change beyond recognition. They have set up an Eruv there and the area is almost full to bursting with Jewish people ranging from non-orthodox to Hassidic all groups catered for. When I was younger the only Jewish people you saw/neighboured tended to be low key & unorthodox.
When you drive from Lower Broughton to Prestwich you see the area is almost entirely Orthodox Jewish now (Bury New Road, Leicester Road & Kings Road). Most shops are closed on a Saturday, the roads empty and the sounds of chanting from various front rooms. I find this quite a departure from how things were, it is apparent that non-Jews are increasingly the minority. This isn't a problem to me, people can live where they want to, whatever their creed/beliefs. However actively promoting an area to be friendly and desirable for people of a chosen religion leads to diverse communities being destroyed and areas becoming alien to the everyday family.

The Eruv in North Manchester/Salford has clearly worked in its aim. My parents have been told by their neighbours there are Jewish families in London waiting to buy if they decided to sell up. Why can't those on this side of town who are clearly living well alongside our diverse community move to Prestwich if they are so bothered about it.
Nobody has the right to say this area is now officially welcoming to a specific group of people. It is not the Jewish peoples area any more than Muslims, Chinese, Spanish, Irish or British people. We live as a lovely diverse area where we aren't defined by a religion or race of person who is more welcome than others. This creates division and splits communities up. In truth we are a secular country and all the better that one religion doesn't have exclusivity or great control over those in power.
The pro-Eruv camp will no doubt say it won't make a difference and people will be accused of being racist for speaking up. Look at North Manchester for the evidence that areas change beyond recognition. Celebrate your religion, but it doesn't give you any right to designate a large area as 'yours' in the name of religion. It is our area and we don't need engineered population controls to destroy it."

You do realise that the Jews aren't at fault for this, right? For them to be able to move there the house owners need to be on board.

In the normal way of things people move house, there are probably 6 houses for sale on my street at the moment. In an eruv it is highly likely that you would have predominantly Jewish buyers after those properties. So, like I keep saying, over time the demographics of the area will change.

 

[Altfish]

And clearly, the kosher shops are stopping any other shops from selling food. The Jews are forcing their religion on everyone!

Do you understand supply and demand? If the area is predominantly Jewish the demand for non-kosher foods declines and the shops cannot make a living and close. This has happened in Prestwich.

 

[Flankerl]

I think most Jews live near a Synagogue, seems that its the epicentre of your problem.

In the normal way of things people move house, there are probably 6 houses for sale on my street at the moment. In an eruv it is highly likely that you would have predominantly Jewish buyers after those properties. So, like I keep saying, over time the demographics of the area will change.

Well aren't you British usually totally big on the free market?



Thing is you are advocating for Jews to live apart from each other. Which for me is funny because there is not a single Jewish shop where I live. If I even wanted to go to a kosher restaurant I'd have to drive over 80 km.

 

[Altfish]

Well aren't you British usually totally big on the free market?

Thing is you are advocating for Jews to live apart from each other. Which for me is funny because there is not a single Jewish shop where I live. If I even wanted to go to a kosher restaurant I'd have to drive over 80 km.

How is the creation of an eruv creating a free market? It is more like creating a monopoly.
Where have I advocated that Jews live apart from each other?
Do we create Catholic areas? Do we create Atheist areas? What about creating areas for Scientologists to live in?

I am a great believer in a multi-cultural society, not areas being developed to attract people of one particular persuasion. That leads to segregation which is bad.

 

[Flankerl]

You seriously don't get what an Eruv is. Its not a Jewish area. Its a bypass for Jewish law on Shabbat. It affects Jews and Jews alone.

Oh and every single Synagogue is a way to attract Jews. Just sayin.

 

[Tumah]

How is the creation of an eruv creating a free market? It is more like creating a monopoly.

Putting up an eiruv doesn't make a neighborhood exclusive to Jews, it gives Jews the ability to live in a neighborhood with the same convenience that their non-Jewish counterparts have. It evens the playing field, if anything.
Neighborhoods change all the time. That's a feature of neighborhoods, not of Jewish community. If a neighborhood changes because of an eiruv, that's because of your country's free-market. Do you only support free-markets when it works in your personal favor? Nobody is forcing your neighbors to sell their houses to Jews. If we didn't have this religious need, but because of the communal nature of our religion, Orthodox Jews bought out your neighbors houses en masse, would you not have a problem?

Is your problem supply and demand or is your problem Orthodox Jews who don't fit into your picture of multiculturalism?