An argument against free will

[Skwim]

Betrand Russell once said "The universe is deterministic and in that sense, free will does not exist. But we should still put criminals in prison."

Because short of killing such people how else would we protect society from them?

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[We Never Know]

If everyone is programmed, why should we punish bad freely chosen behavior/choices?

Rephrase... Why do we chose to punish bad freely chosen behavior/choices of others or are we programmed to punish the programmed behavior of others?

 

[We Never Know]

But if everyone is programmed they wouldn't make freely chosen behavior/choices.

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I rephrased the post

 

[Skwim]

I rephrased the post

I deleted it.

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[We Never Know]

I deleted it.

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I thought I would rephrase because by the time I would have edited it, there could have been a response. Sorry for the trouble.

 

[Skwim]

Rephrase... Why do we chose to punish bad freely chosen behavior/choices of others or are we programmed to punish the programmed behavior of others?

If there were choices then we'd be quite justified in punishing those we've determined should be punished. But in as much as choosing doesn't exist, we punish bad behavior because we can do no differently, no matter how absurd such a response is. We all live the illusion of free will, as irrational as it is.

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[shunyadragon]

Would you care to try and tackle the argument in post #8 then?

If not I won't respond anymore.

Post #9 is not an argument it is an assertion by Bertrend Russel.

Betrand Russell once said "The universe is deterministic and in that sense, free will does not exist. But we should still put criminals in prison."

I do not support the view that universe is deterministic, and free will does not exist. I do believe that the nature and degree of free will is till open to question. . I only consider that the foundation of the nature of the foundation of the universe is deterministic. This does not preclude that a form of compatibilism with limited free will is the explanation for human will.

Bertrend Russell's quote hust states the obvious of the control of crime and mental illness in society needs to dealt with and yes criminals need to be controlled and punished for the sake os a stable society. Fortunately over time things are improving concerning the fate of the mentally ill.

See post #20 for a more detailed description of my view of free will.

 

[exchemist]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

You mean like breathing?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The criminal to the judge: I have no free will, so you can't put me in prison.
The judge: I have no free will, so I sentence you to prison.

If there are no free will, most of us are programmed to put some humans in prison, so there is no problem even if there is no free will.
Now the core argument for free will and programming is not that we have metaphysical free will, but that some humans can self program, they can change their behavior due to have the ability to do mentalizing and meta-cognition. That is how we hold each other responsible in effect. You should know what you have done is wrong, unless you are insane. If you are not insane or otherwise cognitive incapable, then you should now what you have done, is wrong and shouldn't have do it.
In effect we know that humans can change behavior, thus we hold them responsible for not do something else than the crime

 

[stvdv]

If it's true that because we do involuntary acts we have no free will, then it's also true, at the same time, that we do have free will, because we do do voluntary acts.

I agree with this if you define "free will" as in "free to choose"
For me "free will" is of a much higher level ... "will" has to do with "will power" ... "free" suggests "no limitations"

 

[Enoch07]

Post #9 is not an argument it is an assertion by Bertrend Russel.

Betrand Russell once said "The universe is deterministic and in that sense, free will does not exist. But we should still put criminals in prison."

I do not support the view that universe is deterministic, and free will does not exist. I do believe that the nature and degree of free will is till open to question. . I only consider that the foundation of the nature of the foundation of the universe is deterministic. This does not preclude that a form of compatibilism with limited free will is the explanation for human will.

Bertrend Russell's quote hust states the obvious of the control of crime and mental illness in society needs to dealt with and yes criminals need to be controlled and punished for the sake os a stable society. Fortunately over time things are improving concerning the fate of the mentally ill.

See post #20 for a more detailed description of my view of free will.

Ok well I don't care what you thought about post #9. I asked you to look at post #8. But that's ok.

I looked at post #20.

The only thing that I see that destroys your theory is indecision. If what you thought was true then there would be no indecision or changing of opinions/decisions. If its predetermined then why would people change their mind or opinion? If the changing of is predetermined that defeats itself. Why would a thing that is already predetermined change? If its predetermined and set for to happen for good or bad, right or wrong, then it never changes. It serves no purpose and is highly illogical.

 

[shunyadragon]

Take it from someone who has lived an extremely violent, drug filled, life of madness. You always have a choice.

If people was programmed to go against their own programming drug addicts would never get clean, or they would get clean and stay clean.

This is not the case for 99.9% of us. We tend to get doped out of minds, lose everything we own, and everyone we know, get clean for a little while, then go right back into dope headfirst, just to eventually try and get clean again rinse repeat, etc.

The few of us that get lucky and get clean, and not OD/commit suicide/go insane. We still have to struggle with addiction the rest of our lives and it is not easy. So to say I am programmed to live this way is an insult to life itself. No creature lives for the purpose to torment itself endlessly.

You asked to respond to this post.OK. I do not consider this an argument either way, except drugs in our culture tends to negate free will and control peoples choices.

 

[Enoch07]

You asked to respond to this post.OK. I do not consider this an argument either way, except drugs in our culture tends to negate free will and control peoples choices.

Ok cool just wanted your opinion considering your view point. Thanks

 

[Faithofchristian]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

Ok, so I'll ask you one thing, what you posted on here did someone tell you to ?
Or force you?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Rephrase... Why do we chose to punish bad freely chosen behavior/choices of others or are we programmed to punish the programmed behavior of others?

I think it's a little of both.

As a social species dependend on cooperation, I think we have an instinctive urge to try and keep order and/or to stand up against perceived unfairness or injustice. For the sake of society at large, but also out of self-preservation. Because we understand that we'll thrive better / more easily in a peacefull and cooperative society then in anarchy.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Probably not free will, most likely an over whelming addiction to RF combined with the ball and chain of all previous cause and effect events that lead to the determinism of post or die..

Is that your reason for posting so often here? Overwhelming addiction? I can recommend a freedom from addiction ministry...in case you CHOOSE to go.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

Although I don't believe in free will, I still believe you choose these actions as much as anything else.

 

[shunyadragon]

Is that your reason for posting so often here? Overwhelming addiction? I can recommend a freedom from addiction ministry...in case you CHOOSE to go.

The sarcasm gooney bird flew right over your head.

 

[Road Less Traveled]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

A lot has been determined for us in which we were not free to choose. The terms ‘You’ and ‘I’ come to mind though. What if someone didn’t identify with their biological machine in other ways? For instance, in their wakeful state if their biological machine has the urge to eat something unhealthy and the ‘I’ inside tells it to booger off. Would it be a choice of the ‘I’ to go contrary to a biological machines urges?

 

[tayla]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

These phenomena only concern the kind of involuntary actions you mention; they say nothing about willful choices.