An argument against free will

[osgart]

There is the affect of experiences of which you can do very little about. And then there is the will to handle those affects. And no one can ever prove that you would not, and could not choose another option.

There is difference making facts, and wisdoms that can inform our choices, and decisions so that we do not end up deciding, and choosing poorly. Free will is the engine of how we inform ourselves to make the best decisions possible. Without the engine we are waiting for the hill to move us around. Better options leads to better results. The will to envision better options, or the complacency of accepting your plight is that which nothing can be done about it.

Granted there are things that nothing can be done about it. You will always get hungry. The sun will come over the horizon or not. But your response is your very own. One can always blame it on the weather though.

Why insist that there is no free will whatsoever, and chalk it up to occurences determined for you, and you have no say in the matter? Intellectually you may get away with saying that there is no free will, but is that really the case? I dont think it is.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

Thanks for exercising your free will in choosing to post this!

 

[sealchan]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

If there is no free will then on what basis does one distinguish a voluntary vs involuntary action?

 

[Willamena]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

If it's true that because we do involuntary acts we have no free will, then it's also true, at the same time, that we do have free will, because we do do voluntary acts.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I had a dream once that I was with a group of people and they said something funny resulting in me laughing so much that I awoke and kept laughing which woke my wife up who also began laughing and we laughed until we cried.

O those were the days my friend!

Free will or not I never had so much fun.

 

[Thief]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

how about bleeding?
or breathing?
or digestion?

 

[dfnj]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

I read when we sleep our brains organize our experiences from short term memory into long term memory space. So there is no doubt the brain has functions which could be interpreted as machine-like behavior. The thing is right now I have conscious awareness. I just feel like what I am experiencing is real and I am connected to reality in a deep way. My experience of reality is not like watching low definition television. It's not clear to me all my choices simply come from my brain activity. Sometimes it feels like reality is drawing me into the future.

Since our brains are made of the very stuff we are experiencing it's not clear to me how deep our connection to reality goes in order to achieve conscious experience as real as we experience. I think the problem with your questions is you assume philosophical materialism is true, vitalism is wrong, and the human mind is like a computer separate from the reality it experiences. The thing is, there is a lot of evidence from the quantum world suggesting philosophical materialism is a belief system like evangelical Christianity. And over many years of study still no one has clearly found or understands where our memories are actually stored. It may be the case human beings are closer to a radio receiver model than a computer model.

Of course people who are devout believers in philosophical materialism think anyone who doubts their basic tenets of belief are completely insane. Just like evangelical Christianity, admitting the possibility of any doubt in their core beliefs is unacceptable.

I think we have free will to think we have free-will. And we also have free will to think we do not have free-will.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.

What about all of the voluntary acts we perform?

 

[shunyadragon]

Thanks for exercising your free will in choosing to post this!

Probably not free will, most likely an over whelming addiction to RF combined with the ball and chain of all previous cause and effect events that lead to the determinism of post or die..

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

But as for your argument. If your hypothesis was true. Then we could not go against our machines programming. No obesity, no drugs or alchohol or anything that harms the body. We would not partake of high risk behavior, because of the risk involved. Our body does warn us not to jump out of the plane with a parachute (fear) for example.

Obesity is actually a completely natural result of the availability of food in modern times coupled with the lack of need to do anything physical to mete out survival. This is all according to the exact "programming" you're talking about. Doesn't go against anything except a person's wishes of what they want to be other than obese.

 

[Enoch07]

Obesity is actually a completely natural result of the availability of food in modern times coupled with the lack of need to do anything physical to mete out survival. This is all according to the exact "programming" you're talking about. Doesn't go against anything except a person's wishes of what they want to be other than obese.

You've proven my point though.

People deny this programming all the time. Or else everyone would be obese.

So it's a fine example of free will.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

You've proven my point though.

People deny this programming all the time. Or else everyone would be obese.

So it's a fine example of free will.

And this, again, is not true. People are born with varying propensity to store energy reserves in the form of fat. in essence, people's "programming" varies. Some people even have a hard time gaining weight - that is simple fact. Some people couldn't be obese, even if they were trying their hardest. They simply couldn't eat enough at once.

And please note - I wasn't contesting any notion of "free will" with my replies. Just observing that you were mischaracterizing something.

 

[shunyadragon]

You've proven my point though.

People deny this programming all the time. Or else everyone would be obese.

So it's a fine example of free will.

Actually no, there are many involved causes of obesity rooted in human physiology, genetics, evolution, and culture. Probably for the most part they are following their programing, and amplified by culture. For most ending their obesity would mean breaking with their cultural ties, ie modern European diet. Human desire for carbohydrates was very desirable in the past, and a great deal of effort was required to get food, because they had intense hunter gatherer lives. I believe the desire is still in us, but our sedentary lives resulting in widespread obesity and diabeties.

By the way in some ancient cultures obesity was desirable in women.

 

[Enoch07]

And this, again, is not true.

It is true though for the most part though. It does apply to most humans. It's an evolutionary survival mechanism. All people (who don't suffer from a variety mental/physical illnesses), are programmed to store fat just in case food becomes scarce they can survive for a little bit longer. Lots of people actively deny this programming by restricting the amount and types of food they consume.

I mean I am in shape of course, round is a shape after all! So I'm not picking on big and beautiful people. Just saying.

 

[Enoch07]

Actually no, there are many involved causes of obesity rooted in human physiology, genetics and culture. Probably for the most part they are following their programing, and amplified by culture.

Yes and it is possible to deny that programming. It's not easy and lots of people struggle with it and fail, myself included. But it can be denied.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It is true though for the most part though. It does apply to most humans. It's an evolutionary survival mechanism. All people (who don't suffer from a variety mental/physical illnesses), are programmed to store fat just in case food becomes scarce they can survive for a little bit longer. Lots of people actively deny this programming by restricting the amount and types of food they consume.

I mean I am in shape of course, round is a shape after all! So I'm not picking on big and beautiful people. Just saying.

I agree - it is something built into our physiology, and people do control how much food they intake so as not to let their body get into the habit of storing tons of energy in fat.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes and it is possible to deny that programming. It's not easy and lots of people struggle with it and fail, myself included. But it can be denied.

Well, ah that is only part of the picture concerning the cultural influences that directly and indirectly influence our decision making process. Because of the influence of chains and event outcomes in our life and all around us the question of the degree of free will remains unresolved.

'We have a will and reason, but it is not necessarily free.

 

[Enoch07]

Well, ah that is only part of the picture concerning the cultural influences that directly and indirectly influence our decision making process. Because of the influence of chains and event outcomes in our life and all around us the question of the degree of free will remains unresolved.

'We have a will and reason, but it is not necessarily free.

Would you care to try and tackle the argument in post #8 then?

If not I won't respond anymore.

 

[Skwim]

That would make all crime natural

At least not something one is morally responsible for.

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[We Never Know]

You can't blame me for those behaviors, I was just programmed that way.

If everyone is programmed, why should we punish bad freely chosen behavior/choices?