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Featured An argument against free will

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by The Transcended Omniverse, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. The Transcended Omniverse

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    Have you ever involuntarily performed certain acts in your sleep, such as saying certain things, or making certain movements? Well, I think this says you're a biological machine with no free will, since you had no choice but to perform those acts, since they were involuntary acts.
     
    #1 The Transcended Omniverse, Jun 26, 2019
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  2. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I once had a dream I was laying on my back on my bed, reading a book. I had my legs propping up the book so I could read it and both hands on each side of the book. When I woke up, I was in that position for real. :D

    Also I once had a dream I was walking down the street on the sidewalk. A viscous dog came out of the yard ahead of me and leaped towards my face. I put up my forearm so the dog would clamp down on it, instead of my face, then grabbed the dog with my other hand and then I tore into the dogs throat with my teeth. I woke up ferociously slinging my pillow back and forth (just like dogs do when the cold their jaws). :D
     
  3. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    But as for your argument. If your hypothesis was true. Then we could not go against our machines programming. No obesity, no drugs or alchohol or anything that harms the body. We would not partake of high risk behavior, because of the risk involved. Our body does warn us not to jump out of the plane with a parachute (fear) for example.
     
  4. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

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    You can't blame me for those behaviors, I was just programmed that way.
     
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  5. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    That's the goal people who deny free will are shooting for I believe.
     
  6. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Active Member

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    That would make all crime natural
     
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  7. The Transcended Omniverse

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    But, all of what you said already is a part of the programming. That means partaking in high risk behaviors is already part of our machine's programming. My point is, the person partaking was already programmed to do that, which means he had no choice.
     
    #7 The Transcended Omniverse, Jun 26, 2019
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  8. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Take it from someone who has lived an extremely violent, drug filled, life of madness. You always have a choice.

    If people was programmed to go against their own programming drug addicts would never get clean, or they would get clean and stay clean.

    This is not the case for 99.9% of us. We tend to get doped out of minds, lose everything we own, and everyone we know, get clean for a little while, then go right back into dope headfirst, just to eventually try and get clean again rinse repeat, etc.

    The few of us that get lucky and get clean, and not OD/commit suicide/go insane. We still have to struggle with addiction the rest of our lives and it is not easy. So to say I am programmed to live this way is an insult to life itself. No creature lives for the purpose to torment itself endlessly.
     
  9. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    Betrand Russell once said "The universe is deterministic and in that sense, free will does not exist. But we should still put criminals in prison." :)
     
  10. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Tell that to the ones that don't want to be responsible for their own choices.:)
     
  11. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    You mean, like "born again" christians who consider "all is forgiven cuz i'm saved"?


    :)
     
  12. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Active Member

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    Repentance has no meaning for you then?
     
  13. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    Sure, some of them need to hear it as well. :)
     
  14. The Transcended Omniverse

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    Well, there are many highly intelligent skeptics who think we're biological machines with no free will. I have no counter argument for the argument you've just given, since I'm not an intelligent person. But, if there were some highly intelligent skeptics here, I'm quite sure they'd come up with some good counter arguments.
     
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  15. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    In sleep you brain still functions albeit in a limited fashion, the higher level decision making areas for example are "out of it". Dreams and consciquently unconscious actions are simply your brain trying to rationalise and compartmentalise recent experiences.

    Yet when you wake you are perfectly able to choose to turn right or left when you leave your house.
     
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  16. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    I understand your point of view though. And life would be so much more simple without the idea of free will. But unfortunately life is a .... tough ....

    So I personally can't stand the idea that a child molester or rapist is simply following his programming and is free of the responsibility of ruining not only his victims life but for several generations down the victim's ancestry. This ripple effect alone of molestation and rape are too serious to just shrug it off as "but mah programming".

    So I'll exit in apologizing if I came off as too strong or aggressive. But I assure you I have no ill feelings towards you. But I do have very strong feelings about the subject since I was a victim of abuse myself.

    Best wishes!
     
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  17. RESOLUTION

    RESOLUTION Active Member

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    If you were asleep how would you know you performed them?
     
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  18. TagliatelliMonster

    TagliatelliMonster Well-Known Member

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    No idea how you concluded that from what I actually said.
     
  19. bobhikes

    bobhikes infinitologist
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    Two things

    I have realized I was dreaming and took control of the Dream.
    I have realized I was dreaming and woke myself up.

    Both indicate my will can operate even in dreaming.
     
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    The existence of involuntary acts does not justify an argument against free will. There is no question that natural determinism dominates human behavior, and the decision making process, but the degree of free will is open to question. Some form of compatibilism where a degree of self-motivated free will is compatible with determinism. Some forms of compatibilism even rejects true free will were 'to do otherwise' is an illusion, but decisions have 'wiggle room' (Dennett). Other forms allow a degree of free will in the decision making process.

    It is the libertarian free will that asserts humans have the ability 'to do otherwise' over a wide range of human decision making processes, but this view fundamentally fails many ways. They argue from the perspective that humans are rational decision making beings. This fails to acknowledge many of our decisions, are predetermined by simply natural determinism, our human nature, culture, group dynamics, mental illness, and the chain of cause and effect events that lead to each choice,

    The question is how much of a possible range in human choices is there 'to do otherwise.' Many argue that from the human perspective choices are likely made predetermined by too many factors for free will to exist, and rational choices simply follow the chain of cause and effect relationships of our past. Also, in most instances humans do not know whether they could 'do otherwise.'

    My view is that the possible free will is within a narrow range of ;some' choices in the cause and effect outcome of a chain of events. One factor in the nature of our physical existence is the fractal nature of all cause and effect events is the fractal nature (chaos theory) of the range of possible outcome. This fractal nature of pretty much all natural events creates fuzzy boundary as to what is posibly free will and what is not. I believe we make decisions within a narrow range of possible outcomes, but these choices have more of a fractal nature and not truly free will.

    I believe there is a limited role of free will in this process, because of the rational nature of humans, but it is difficult to objectively define. This is what I call the limited potential of free will decision.

    More to follow . . .
     
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