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Amoral god?

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psychedelicsoul

Active Member
If God is omnipotent, he cannot be benevolent in a world of suffering
But if God is benevolent, it makes no sense to assume he's omnipotent

Well, he created the universe, so odds are he's omnipotent. Now, that's not the same as saying he's "perfect". It just means he "can" do anything. So most likely, God is amoral. This would mean God doens't care about morality.
Honestly, I don't think God knows what pain feels like. He's never had a physical body. He designed pain in the human brain as a defense mechanism and that's it. He doesn't know or care about suffering.
When was the last time you went out of your way to help an ant, a roach, or a fly? Think of how complex our minds are compared to theirs. Now picture God... Our mind is like the mind of an insect compared to Gods mind which is infinitely more complex than ours. God can't relate to our feelings any more than we can relate to a bugs.

Thank God for the good stuff that happens is like thanking the person who invented CPR for you being ressucitated, rather than the person who gave you CRP
Blaming God for the bad things that happen is like blaming gravity for someone falling to their death.
 
Demonslayer

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
psychedelicsoul said:
Honestly, I don't think God knows what pain feels like. He's never had a physical body. He designed pain in the human brain as a defense mechanism and that's it. He doesn't know or care about suffering.
When was the last time you went out of your way to help an ant, a roach, or a fly? Think of how complex our minds are compared to theirs.
Click to expand...

If anyone has read "Under the Dome" (the book, not the abortion of a mini-series) this is very similar to the explanation of what the Dome is.

Also I don't fully buy it. I know damn well what I'm doing if I burn an anthill with a magnifying glass or pull the wings off a butterfly. It's not that my mind is so complex I can't understand, on the contrary, I fully understand.

psychedelicsoul said:
God can't relate to our feelings any more than we can relate to a bugs.
Click to expand...

If this is true though, that means God doesn't "want us to be happy" or any of the other things we're told about God. We don't consider ants "our children" and don't profess to love ants.
 
JRMcC

JRMcC

Active Member
psychedelicsoul said:
Okay, that did give me a better understanding. I still believe that God has maximum power and can do anything but simply won't because he doesn't actually care about us.
Click to expand...
Yep that's the theodicy problem. Hey, maybe God is moral but he's just not omnipotent.
 
Saint_of_Me

Saint_of_Me

Member
psychedelicsoul said:
If God is omnipotent, he cannot be benevolent in a world of suffering
But if God is benevolent, it makes no sense to assume he's omnipotent

Well, he created the universe, so odds are he's omnipotent. Now, that's not the same as saying he's "perfect". It just means he "can" do anything. So most likely, God is amoral. This would mean God doens't care about morality.
Honestly, I don't think God knows what pain feels like. He's never had a physical body. He designed pain in the human brain as a defense mechanism and that's it. He doesn't know or care about suffering.
When was the last time you went out of your way to help an ant, a roach, or a fly? Think of how complex our minds are compared to theirs. Now picture God... Our mind is like the mind of an insect compared to Gods mind which is infinitely more complex than ours. God can't relate to our feelings any more than we can relate to a bugs.

Thank God for the good stuff that happens is like thanking the person who invented CPR for you being ressucitated, rather than the person who gave you CRP
Blaming God for the bad things that happen is like blaming gravity for someone falling to their death.
Click to expand...


You are on the right track here, but still missing the mark a bit.

I agree with some of your post, like the parts about deluded folks who praise god for something good happening, or condemn him for something bad occurring. Or worse, the religious zealots who blame a fictitious evil god, like Satan, for evil occurring in the world.

But you are continuing to imbue god with human attributes. This is wrong, I think. It's the same sort of antrhopomorphizing that most religions do. Like the Bronze Age Hebrews with their Yahweh god. Making him into a jealous tyrannical bully god. LOL

Because, I fell that of there IS a god, he (more accurately, it) has no emotions at all. And sorry, he doesn't care a fig about you. Or us. And he doesn't "listen" to prayers. He (It) does not reward you with an afterlife.

Instead, if there IS a god, and this is a huge huge IF--it is one of a Deist variety. An impersonal, non-caring, non-judgemental sort of Universal Intelligence. A Creative Force more akin to, say, a Massive Electrical Current or a Force Field than a Theist, caring sky god.

This sort of Entity uses the laws of science and physics, thermodynamics, astro-physics, to create the Universe. And Evolutionary Biology to evolve us from single-celled microbes 3 BYA to humanoid primates today. He does NOT intervene in daily affairs.

He listens to your prayers and cares about you now more than does the lightning from that thunderstorm that is passing over my town right now.

The very most he can do, I feel, is perhaps drive the Evolutionary process. that is, maybe those genetic mutations that give rise to selective inheretence are not totally random, but a product of His Intelligence.

This view of Evolution is called "teleological." Most biologists, since they are atheist, and rarely even Deists, won't go there.

I can entertain the slim chance of this, once in awhile. LOL. But for the most past I am an atheist materialist, giving the only slim chance of their being any type of god to the notion of a Deist one.
 
Guy Threepwood

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
psychedelicsoul said:
If God is omnipotent, he cannot be benevolent in a world of suffering
But if God is benevolent, it makes no sense to assume he's omnipotent

Well, he created the universe, so odds are he's omnipotent. Now, that's not the same as saying he's "perfect". It just means he "can" do anything. So most likely, God is amoral. This would mean God doens't care about morality.
Honestly, I don't think God knows what pain feels like. He's never had a physical body. He designed pain in the human brain as a defense mechanism and that's it. He doesn't know or care about suffering.
When was the last time you went out of your way to help an ant, a roach, or a fly? Think of how complex our minds are compared to theirs. Now picture God... Our mind is like the mind of an insect compared to Gods mind which is infinitely more complex than ours. God can't relate to our feelings any more than we can relate to a bugs.

Thank God for the good stuff that happens is like thanking the person who invented CPR for you being ressucitated, rather than the person who gave you CRP
Blaming God for the bad things that happen is like blaming gravity for someone falling to their death.
Click to expand...

By that rationale, a parent does not love their child, is amoral, unless they cater to every whim, solve every problem for them, never let them feel any discomfort or have them face any challenge for themselves
 
Saint_of_Me

Saint_of_Me

Member
Guy Threepwood said:
By that rationale, a parent does not love their child, is amoral, unless they cater to every whim, solve every problem for them, never let them feel any discomfort or have them face any challenge for themselves
Click to expand...


Woah!

LOL.

Are you trying to say that the despicable and murderous Yahweh of the Old Testament can be likened to a stern parent merely practicing tough love? And not indulging his children in their every whim?

That his mass murder and ethnic cleansing and, yes, infanticide and child-killing (see: The Passover!) are somehow condoned? That is, construed by people like you to be no worse then the theological equivalent of a spanking? LOL.

Because, if this is indeed what you are alluding to, I am going to come at you pretty hard with some vociferous posts, and prove your point to be absurd to any rational-minded person reading our exchanges.

Let me know.

Thanks.
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I think one can find philosophical conundrums in dualistic (God and creation are two) thinking. I see the future of spiritual thought moving in a more sophisticated non-dual/pantheistic/eastern (God and creation are not-two) direction. I think dualism worked in a time of less general education and information as it is the easier concept to grasp. Now that mankind is entering a New Age, we will not be satisfied with the previous ages' religions.

I hope the OP is not trying to say the criticism of ancient religions is an argument for modern scientific atheism.
 
P

psychedelicsoul

Active Member
Saint_of_Me said:
You are on the right track here, but still missing the mark a bit.

I agree with some of your post, like the parts about deluded folks who praise god for something good happening, or condemn him for something bad occurring. Or worse, the religious zealots who blame a fictitious evil god, like Satan, for evil occurring in the world.

But you are continuing to imbue god with human attributes. This is wrong, I think. It's the same sort of antrhopomorphizing that most religions do. Like the Bronze Age Hebrews with their Yahweh god. Making him into a jealous tyrannical bully god. LOL

Because, I fell that of there IS a god, he (more accurately, it) has no emotions at all. And sorry, he doesn't care a fig about you. Or us. And he doesn't "listen" to prayers. He (It) does not reward you with an afterlife.

Instead, if there IS a god, and this is a huge huge IF--it is one of a Deist variety. An impersonal, non-caring, non-judgemental sort of Universal Intelligence. A Creative Force more akin to, say, a Massive Electrical Current or a Force Field than a Theist, caring sky god.

This sort of Entity uses the laws of science and physics, thermodynamics, astro-physics, to create the Universe. And Evolutionary Biology to evolve us from single-celled microbes 3 BYA to humanoid primates today. He does NOT intervene in daily affairs.

He listens to your prayers and cares about you now more than does the lightning from that thunderstorm that is passing over my town right now.

The very most he can do, I feel, is perhaps drive the Evolutionary process. that is, maybe those genetic mutations that give rise to selective inheretence are not totally random, but a product of His Intelligence.

This view of Evolution is called "teleological." Most biologists, since they are atheist, and rarely even Deists, won't go there.

I can entertain the slim chance of this, once in awhile. LOL. But for the most past I am an atheist materialist, giving the only slim chance of their being any type of god to the notion of a Deist one.
Click to expand...

I think God can have some human like attributes. I think he is a soul, just like we are. However, he's on a different level. I think he might have some form of curiousity.
 
P

psychedelicsoul

Active Member
Guy Threepwood said:
Or he is moral and omnipotent and has chosen to give us the gift of free will
Click to expand...

That's were I disagree. I believe God put our souls into these bodies. But I do not believe he made us. If our "self"... our personality and who we are was designed, then we don't really have free will. How can we have free will if our individual consciousness is the result of a creator, then who we are is predetermined. It's like an AI... No matter how good of a programmer someone is, it's impossible to build a robot with free will.
 
Guy Threepwood

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
psychedelicsoul said:
That's were I disagree. I believe God put our souls into these bodies. But I do not believe he made us. If our "self"... our personality and who we are was designed, then we don't really have free will. How can we have free will if our individual consciousness is the result of a creator, then who we are is predetermined. It's like an AI... No matter how good of a programmer someone is, it's impossible to build a robot with free will.
Click to expand...

It's a good point I think, how can we determine what is true free will, and not just a very good simulation of it? Can we judge the 'programming capabilities' of the 'ultimate programmer' ? We still can't figure out how much of the rest of creation works either. but maybe as relates to this thread; whatever it is we have is enough. As far as we can possibly tell, we do have free will, and our perception of it is enough to give the choices we make their meaning. Good, bad, love, hate. could they exist without there being a choice?
 
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