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America's justice system should be changed to America's revenge system.

ericoh2

******
I think America has gotten away from justice and has been primarily focusing on revenge. The death penalty is a primary example. What is actually being accomplished with it other than creating a method of revenge for the family's of violent crime? A positive change would be for America to make more of an effort to give psychological and spiritual help to those in the prison and jail systems.
 

Neo-Logic

Reality Checker
My friend:

Our prison system is like Democracy - it's the worst of its kind, but only after all the rest.

In regards to prisons specifically: the reason our prison systems are **** is because of politicians and their stupid meaningless publicity campaigns.

War On Drugs: Of the 1,274,600 inmates held in 2004, the second highest convicted crimes were for drug charges coming in at 249,400 - second only after property offenses. That's nearly 20% of the prison population in jail for drug sentences. Source

This combined with the "3 strikes rules" and "minimum sentencing federal statutes" for drug charges FLOOD the prisons with drug dealers - and also tons of just idiot potheads and drug consumers who should be working at a McDonald's stimulating our economy instead of being stuck in prisons for trivial offenses.

Aside from the publicity stunts and political campaigns for the sake of PR that needlessly clogs our justice system and prisons like the ******** "war on drugs" - our justice system is better than the alternative. If the system wasn't overwhelmed with such large numbers of just stupid people and not real criminals that should be in jail, our judges and prosecutors would be free to focus on more important cases.

And reform isn't such an easy issue. It maybe easy for us to sit on the sideline and talk about morality of harsh punishments, but when you're the victim or a family of a victim, justice must be satisfied. It's hard to do that besides serious hard time for the seriously hard criminals that should be in jail instead of all the potheads that flood our system.
 

BucephalusBB

ABACABB
A positive change would be for America to make more of an effort to give psychological and spiritual help to those in the prison and jail systems.
Even though I am against deathpenalty and know little about the jailsystem in America.. we are dealing with criminals here. Do you really want to send out the message that when you kill someone you are going to get spiritual help? Some would kill for that..
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Even though I am against deathpenalty and know little about the jailsystem in America.. we are dealing with criminals here. Do you really want to send out the message that when you kill someone you are going to get spiritual help? Some would kill for that..
In America, the punishments administered are biased. Blacks for example, are put to death more often that whites are. Also, drugs can, and usually do, get you more time than a violent crime.
If politicians didn't have there personal agendas to fulfill, and priorities were straightened, the justice system would be in a better shape, and jail over crowding wouldn't be as much of an issue.
 

ericoh2

******
Even though I am against deathpenalty and know little about the jailsystem in America.. we are dealing with criminals here. Do you really want to send out the message that when you kill someone you are going to get spiritual help? Some would kill for that..


I will site two examples that show how many people in society that have never committed any major crime could very well do so if they were to be put in a particular situation. Nazi Germany is one and the Milgram experiment is another. In Nazi Germany, thousands and thousands of seemingly "law biding" citizens joined and supported a party directly responsible for the Death of 6 million human beings. Many of the party members were also involved in and carried out orders to kill these innocent people because they were influenced by authoritative powers.
In the Milgram experiment, which was performed on "law biding" citizens as well, subjects were told to deliver a shock to someone(who stated that they had a previous heart condition) every time they missed a memory test question. Now in reality no shocks were administered as the one who was supposed to be shocked was actually in on the experiment. He would simply act as if he were being shocked but the subjects were not aware of it. This would be done with increasingly higher voltage throughout the experiment. Several individuals delivered the full 450 volt shock while the recipient was screaming in pain and asking to be released and at least one of the subjects continued to shock even while the recipient failed to make any more noise. The man could have been dead and he was still being shocked over and over again simply because the subject was told to continue shocking him as part of the experiment. The subject seemed very upset about this and wanted the man to be checked on but he still continued to shock when told to do so.
The point of this post is to show that just because one person commits a crime it doesn't mean that many "law biding" citizens would not do the same if they were in a different situation. So are these criminals really so bad or are they just human beings who have become victims of various programming from society? The evidence shows that these criminals are not beyond repair but have the capacity to function in society if they can gain a better understanding of their existence. This is why so many spiritual teachers stress awareness and self analysis. So when you make a decision it is coming from your true self and not social or authoritative influence.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
My friend:

Our prison system is like Democracy - it's the worst of its kind, but only after all the rest.
You should travel more. There are many forms of commerce, government, and social justice that are better than ours in the U.S.
 

ericoh2

******
Here his Dr. Stanley Milgram's summary of the experiments from his 1974 article "The Perils of Obedience."


"The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects' [participants'] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects' [participants'] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.
Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority."
 

Neo-Logic

Reality Checker
I think America has gotten away from justice and has been primarily focusing on revenge. The death penalty is a primary example. What is actually being accomplished with it other than creating a method of revenge for the family's of violent crime? A positive change would be for America to make more of an effort to give psychological and spiritual help to those in the prison and jail systems.

What exactly is your argument? You changed your post after I posted mine so I lost track. :D

You claim America has steered away from "justice" - what to you is justice? Is it merely giving those in prisons psychological and spiritual help? From what I understand, prisoners can opt to see a priest or a spiritual leader. Prisoners can also seek psychological help. Those that are too severe are placed in institutions instead of prisons.

So what's your point exactly? Any suggestions?
 

ericoh2

******
What exactly is your argument? You changed your post after I posted mine so I lost track. :D

You claim America has steered away from "justice" - what to you is justice? Is it merely giving those in prisons psychological and spiritual help? From what I understand, prisoners can opt to see a priest or a spiritual leader. Prisoners can also seek psychological help. Those that are too severe are placed in institutions instead of prisons.

So what's your point exactly? Any suggestions?


My primary point is to address the attitude that America has towards the justice system. The death penalty is widely accepted and many criminals are given life in prison without the possibility of parole. Without parole being a possibility it is saying that you have no chance to function outside of prison regardless of whether you change or not. These are more in line with methods of revenge than methods of protection, especially the death penalty.
John Malvo, the 17 year old culprit in the Beltway sniper attacks, has been sentenced to life with no parole. He was a exposed to heavy programming from John Allen Muhammad who acted as his father figure. His actions were a product of heavy influence and programming. It happened with the Salem witch trials, it happened in Nazi Germany, it happened in the Milgram experiment, it happened in the Ruby Ridge debacle and it could probably happen to the majority of programmed Americans. Many "law biding" citizens could have very well pulled the trigger in a similar situation. I am in no way condoning what occurred in these attacks as it was terrible situation, but it is ironic to see society so accepting of this sentencing with an attitude of we'll teach him a lesson. I would venture to say that if the Milgram experiment were held today with these same people who are condemning Malvo as the subjects, the results wouldn't be much different than they initially were, people complying with an authority figure to the point of repeatedly shocking an innocent man to his apparent death and maybe even to the lifeless body.
So in conclusion I would like to say that the attitude towards criminals should shift from one of hate and anger to one of compassion. Prisons systems need to be used only as a means of safety and to provide help to its prisoners. Not as a system of vengeance.
 

Neo-Logic

Reality Checker
My primary point is to address the attitude that America has towards the justice system. The death penalty is widely accepted and many criminals are given life in prison without the possibility of parole. Without parole being a possibility it is saying that you have no chance to function outside of prison regardless of whether you change or not. These are more in line with methods of revenge than methods of protection, especially the death penalty.

Simply put, "justice" means "[SIZE=-1]the quality of being just or fair."

You and your loved one are eating at a restaurant. A person walks in with a gun and methodically shoots people in the head.

Your house is broken into in the middle of the night. Your 3 children are raped, stabbed and killed in a painful death.

What to you is justice then? Do you care who made that person or what events in their sad life transpired them to act and commit these crimes? No, you would want that person quartered and his own body parts fed to him, wouldn't you? Thank goodness we have our system of justice.

In every case, justice has to be served. The death penalty is reserved for the most severest of murders, most cruel - child murderers, serial killers, multiple deaths, etc. Life without parole is also similar and reserved for henious crimes.

Justice must be seeked and served in every specific case. Some cases demand harsher form of justice than "psychological" help. Some people need to die. Some people need to be locked for life.

Keep in mind too that they are given equal representation, and found guilty before a jury of their peers as per the Constitution.

Nothing seems to be wrong with our system of justice - just our justice system.
[/SIZE]
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
I think America has gotten away from justice and has been primarily focusing on revenge. The death penalty is a primary example. What is actually being accomplished with it other than creating a method of revenge for the family's of violent crime? A positive change would be for America to make more of an effort to give psychological and spiritual help to those in the prison and jail systems.



In a person's path to adulthood, they should be trained (by parents, teachers, and/or clergy if a person is raised in a religion) to obey the law... to not kill, to not steal, to not vandalize, to not assault and batter... etc..

When they do what is unlawful for them to do, they must be punished. It is not a prison's job to teach criminals that murder is wrong. They know it's wrong and commit murder anyway, assuming or hoping they won't get caught.

They don't want to get caught because getting caught means having your property and freedom (and in some states, life) taken away from you.

If you believe that we shouldn't punish criminals, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just remember that if someone brutally murders one of your loved ones, hopefully someone will give them a significant talking to about what went wrong in their life, about who they should forgive for screwing up their childhood, and to go along not murdering anyone anymore.


How is imprisonment any less revenge to you than death itself?
The dictionary defines revenge as "to inflict punishment".

If it is wrong to punish criminals... why call anything a crime?

What, to your mind, is the right thing to do to people who commit murder?

Should we legalize it?

Live according to a principle of "survival of the fittest"?

Or how about fate? Someone gets stabbed in the throat 7 times after being raped and otherwise tortured.... I guess that someone must have had it coming.. it was just his time.

How does that sound?
 

ericoh2

******
In a person's path to adulthood, they should be trained (by parents, teachers, and/or clergy if a person is raised in a religion) to obey the law... to not kill, to not steal, to not vandalize, to not assault and batter... etc..

When they do what is unlawful for them to do, they must be punished. It is not a prison's job to teach criminals that murder is wrong. They know it's wrong and commit murder anyway, assuming or hoping they won't get caught.

They don't want to get caught because getting caught means having your property and freedom (and in some states, life) taken away from you.

If you believe that we shouldn't punish criminals, that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. Just remember that if someone brutally murders one of your loved ones, hopefully someone will give them a significant talking to about what went wrong in their life, about who they should forgive for screwing up their childhood, and to go along not murdering anyone anymore.


How is imprisonment any less revenge to you than death itself?
The dictionary defines revenge as "to inflict punishment".

If it is wrong to punish criminals... why call anything a crime?

What, to your mind, is the right thing to do to people who commit murder?

Should we legalize it?

Live according to a principle of "survival of the fittest"?

Or how about fate? Someone gets stabbed in the throat 7 times after being raped and otherwise tortured.... I guess that someone must have had it coming.. it was just his time.

How does that sound?


You probably didn't read my other posts because I don't think you would have replied in this way if you have. The training you are talking about is often what prevents people from murdering but it is also, along with a lack of awareness, the very thing that causes the murder to occur. I think that you really need to read my other 2 or 3 posts and then respond when you have full understanding of what I was trying to address. Thank you for taking the time to reply though, :).
 

ericoh2

******
Simply put, "justice" means "[SIZE=-1]the quality of being just or fair."

You and your loved one are eating at a restaurant. A person walks in with a gun and methodically shoots people in the head.

Your house is broken into in the middle of the night. Your 3 children are raped, stabbed and killed in a painful death.

What to you is justice then? Do you care who made that person or what events in their sad life transpired them to act and commit these crimes? No, you would want that person quartered and his own body parts fed to him, wouldn't you? Thank goodness we have our system of justice.

In every case, justice has to be served. The death penalty is reserved for the most severest of murders, most cruel - child murderers, serial killers, multiple deaths, etc. Life without parole is also similar and reserved for henious crimes.

Justice must be seeked and served in every specific case. Some cases demand harsher form of justice than "psychological" help. Some people need to die. Some people need to be locked for life.

Keep in mind too that they are given equal representation, and found guilty before a jury of their peers as per the Constitution.

Nothing seems to be wrong with our system of justice - just our justice system.
[/SIZE]


This has become the attitude that has prevailed throughout the world and to me it is very unfortunate. What ever attitude that you would have towards someone who killed your family or does you harm does not change which attitude would be more beneficial as a whole. Anger,rage and hate serve no purpose other than to imprison your self in a mental world of suffering. Do you think that emotionally harming yourself is going to do anyone any good? I assure you it will not and neither will killing those you have committed the crime. I am not saying that these folks should be allowed to roam the streets if they are likely to repeat the crime but to sentence them to death or to eliminate the possibility of parole is completely giving up on a fellow human being. True love shows compassion to all regardless and I think you will agree to me that humanity would benefit beyond words if it were to move towards a life of true love. Thank you for your reply.
 

Neo-Logic

Reality Checker
This has become the attitude that has prevailed throughout the world and to me it is very unfortunate. What ever attitude that you would have towards someone who killed your family or does you harm does not change which attitude would be more beneficial as a whole.

Society judges what is beneficial as a whole. If someone kills my family, I don't get to decide his or her fate. He or she gets fair representation, and a jury of peers decide his conviction.

That is fair. We have sentencing because we as a society has decided that killing some, imprisoning others, is beneficial for society.

I believe you hold an ideal perspective that has no basis in the real world. Even if you apply Kantism to the prison system, it still works. "Only live by the maxim that you can will as a universal law." Don't break society's laws and society won't punish you unfairly.

The reason we have prisons isn't JUST to seek justice for victims and their families. It is also beneficial to society to lock up those that have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, to be dangerous to us all.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
I just went back and read your posts.

I get the feeling that you don't ever hold murderers responsible for their own actions.

I do believe people have the capacity to do harm and not care... and those that do should be dealt with. I don't care if it's because he hadn't been hugged enough as a child. There are billions of people on this planet who haven't been hugged enough as a child, and not all of them go on to murder.

Some people we can trust to exist as members of society. Some of them, we can't. That's what prison and/or the death penalty is for.
 
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