"America the Ignorant"

[Skwim]

Freedom of Religion

"Who needs constitutional constructionism? Not one in three Americans, apparently: that's the proportion that said in a 2008 First Amendment Center poll that the constitutional right to freedom of religion was never meant to apply to groups most folks think are extreme or fringe, [a] 10 percent increase from 2000. In 2007, two of five Americans told the FAC that teachers should be allowed to lead prayers in public schools."
​

This and other examples of American ignorance such as,

• 21 percent of Americans believe there are real sorcerors, conjurers and warlocks

• 20 percent of Americans were still sure that the sun revolved around the Earth in 1999.

• more than a third of Americans of any age can't identify the continent that's home to the Amazon River

• Only two out of five respondents. . . can correctly identify the executive, legislative, and judicial branches as the three wings of government.

• 24 percent believed Obama was a Muslim, while only 47 percent correctly identified him as a Christian.
​

can be found HERE

 

[Engyo]

Sad but true..............where's my beer? I need something to cry into.

 

[tarasan]

Freedom of Religion

"Who needs constitutional constructionism? Not one in three Americans, apparently: that's the proportion that said in a 2008 First Amendment Center poll that the constitutional right to freedom of religion was never meant to apply to groups most folks think are extreme or fringe, [a] 10 percent increase from 2000. In 2007, two of five Americans told the FAC that teachers should be allowed to lead prayers in public schools."
​

This and other examples of American ignorance such as,

• 21 percent of Americans believe there are real sorcerors, conjurers and warlocks

• 20 percent of Americans were still sure that the sun revolved around the Earth in 1999.

• more than a third of Americans of any age can't identify the continent that's home to the Amazon River

• Only two out of five respondents. . . can correctly identify the executive, legislative, and judicial branches as the three wings of government.

• 24 percent believed Obama was a Muslim, while only 47 percent correctly identified him as a Christian.
​

can be found HERE

firstly sorcorers, warlocks etc are real, wether they can do actual magic however is another question entirely

but on a serious note, wow America does not look good on this servey....

 

[Engyo]

firstly sorcorers, warlocks etc are real, wether they can do actual magic however is another question entirely

but on a serious note, wow America does not look good on this servey....

On the other hand, I have yet to visit a country that would rate substantially higher across the board. Higher on certain subjects, of course. Across the board, I guess someone would have to administer similar tests in similar circumstances in other countries.

 

[LuisDantas]

Some of the early chapters of Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" do indeed claim that other countries get better results, particularly Japan.

I don't doubt it does.

 

[Engyo]

Some of the early chapters of Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World" do indeed claim that other countries get better results, particularly Japan.

I don't doubt it does.

I was thinking about the question regarding sorcerers, conjurors and warlocks. The Japanese people do remain what some other Western people may consider to be very superstitious and open to paranormal ideas. And yes, I know a number of Japanese citizens personally, and have spent time in Japan.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I hope that the extremists are taken care of. I've been hoping it for years

 

[tarasan]

I hope that the extremists are taken care of. I've been hoping it for years

taken care of.....?

that statement sounds a little extreme mate

 

[Rainbow Mage]

taken care of.....?

that statement sounds a little extreme mate

Maybe so, but I'm tired of them trying to rule my country while crying freedom of religion

 

[tarasan]

Maybe so, but I'm tired of them trying to rule my country while crying freedom of religion

yeah but havin them "taken care of" might be seen as a little hypocritical of a guy is crying tolerance, although to be honest i dont really believe people are tolerant.

although im sure you dont mean it like that. Am i guessing right when I say you want this to be your venting time?

 

[Reptillian]

I seriously doubt the validity of these statistics. If I go out onto the street and pick five random people, I can't imagine that one of them will actually think the sun revolves around the earth. I have never in my life met anyone that believed that. I'll admit that I have met some people who believe some pretty crazy things, however, I have to think they're an extreme but vocal minority. If this poll is accurate, then our country is doomed...DOOOOOMED!!! Freedom can only be maintained if you have an educated populous of composed of moral citizens.

 

[Engyo]

I think that you would have to be more random than five people on the same street (who have a higher statistical liklihood of being from similar educational and socio-ecoomic strata), in order to duplicate the results.

 

[tarasan]

I seriously doubt the validity of these statistics. If I go out onto the street and pick five random people, I can't imagine that one of them will actually think the sun revolves around the earth. I have never in my life met anyone that believed that. I'll admit that I have met some people who believe some pretty crazy things, however, I have to think they're an extreme but vocal minority. If this poll is accurate, then our country is doomed...DOOOOOMED!!! Freedom can only be maintained if you have an educated populous of composed of moral citizens.

i dont think if these stastics are true that america is doomed, unique perhaps but not doomed. and no i dont believe freedom can only be maintained by an educated populus, I mean are you calling teh chinese stupid? cause they have more honour students than you guys do students! democracy has nothing to do with education im afraid.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Freedom of Religion

"Who needs constitutional constructionism? Not one in three Americans, apparently: that's the proportion that said in a 2008 First Amendment Center poll that the constitutional right to freedom of religion was never meant to apply to groups most folks think are extreme or fringe, [a] 10 percent increase from 2000. In 2007, two of five Americans told the FAC that teachers should be allowed to lead prayers in public schools."​

Which also means that 3 of 5 Americans (in the poll) didn't tell the FAC to allow prayer in school and that 2 of 3 Americans (in the poll) believe freedom of religion applies to fringe groups.

• 21 percent of Americans believe there are real sorcerors, conjurers and warlocks

There are those that identify themselves as such. I'm sure a poll in many other places would be similar or greater.

• 20 percent of Americans were still sure that the sun revolved around the Earth in 1999.

That's 80 percent the other way.

• more than a third of Americans of any age can't identify the continent that's home to the Amazon River

Okay, that seems pretty bad, but I mean, how many Americans go to Africa anyway. (Joking, of course.)

• Only two out of five respondents. . . can correctly identify the executive, legislative, and judicial branches as the three wings of government.

I have nothing for this.

• 24 percent believed Obama was a Muslim, while only 47 percent correctly identified him as a Christian.

Political propaganda is an unfortunate side effect to elections.
​

As ignorant of the specific things this brings up, many Americans still manage to be intelligent and well-educated despite our expensive, bureaucratic educational system, and I think that says a lot.

 

[Reptillian]

i dont think if these stastics are true that america is doomed, unique perhaps but not doomed. and no i dont believe freedom can only be maintained by an educated populus, I mean are you calling teh chinese stupid? cause they have more honour students than you guys do students! democracy has nothing to do with education im afraid.

I'm not saying that the Chinese are stupid at all. The Chinese academics I've met generally disagree with their government's behavior regarding human rights and censorship. They simply put up with it. The founders of America pointed out in the declaration of independence that people will put up with all sorts of abuses of power and injustices from authorities simply because they fear change and abhor violence, but if the injustices become too great, then revolution becomes a necessity. I think Chinese officials walk the line by trying to keep the injustices (or public knowledge of them) to the minimum necessary to prevent an uprising and restructuring of power. Either China will give its people more freedoms, or at some point the final straw will break the camel's back and the people demand a change. There is a reason that tyrants and dictators target academics and intellectuals when they come to power.

Socrates/Plato points out that knowledge is necessary for virtue. One cannot lead a virtuous life if one doesn't know what virtue is. How can democracy thrive if the people are easily manipulated and incapable of making informed moral decisions? America will become a reeling violent drunkard if its people embrace ignorance.

 

[tarasan]

I'm not saying that the Chinese are stupid at all. The Chinese academics I've met generally disagree with their government's behavior regarding human rights and censorship. They simply put up with it. The founders of America pointed out in the declaration of independence that people will put up with all sorts of abuses of power and injustices from authorities simply because they fear change and abhor violence, but if the injustices become too great, then revolution becomes a necessity. I think Chinese officials walk the line by trying to keep the injustices (or public knowledge of them) to the minimum necessary to prevent an uprising and restructuring of power. Either China will give its people more freedoms, or at some point the final straw will break the camel's back and the people demand a change. There is a reason that tyrants and dictators target academics and intellectuals when they come to power.

Socrates/Plato points out that knowledge is necessary for virtue. One cannot lead a virtuous life if one doesn't know what virtue is. How can democracy thrive if the people are easily manipulated and incapable of making informed moral decisions? America will become a reeling violent drunkard if its people embrace ignorance.

you dont have to be an intellectual to understand what is right or wrong, plenty of people rose up against their tryants because they felt opressed like the gladiators of anceint Rome for one example. Morality is something that everyone knows about, you dont have to be an intellectual to know what to do and not to do to people.

 

[Reptillian]

you dont have to be an intellectual to understand what is right or wrong, plenty of people rose up against their tryants because they felt opressed like the gladiators of anceint Rome for one example. Morality is something that everyone knows about, you dont have to be an intellectual to know what to do and not to do to people.

I didn't mean to imply that only academics and intellectuals are moral or fed up with their unjust government. I was simply pointing out that the most educated Chinese individuals I've met aren't particularly thrilled with their lack of freedom. The desire for freedom is prevalent because the Chinese people are educated. I think all people want to be good deep down, but its only when they are educated that they are able to consistently do good. When you make a moral choice out of ignorance its like flipping a coin or rolling dice...sure you might make the good choice, but you're not going to pick it the majority of the time.

You have that quote from Seneca in your signature...I'm simply saying that unless we open our eyes (gain knowledge) we're inevitably going to stumble over the very things we seek in the darkness.

 

[tarasan]

I didn't mean to imply that only academics and intellectuals are moral or fed up with their unjust government. I was simply pointing out that the most educated Chinese individuals I've met aren't particularly thrilled with their lack of freedom. The desire for freedom is prevalent because the Chinese people are educated. I think all people want to be good deep down, but its only when they are educated that they are able to consistently do good. When you make a moral choice out of ignorance its like flipping a coin or rolling dice...sure you might make the good choice, but you're not going to pick it the majority of the time.

You have that quote from Seneca in your signature...I'm simply saying that unless we open our eyes (gain knowledge) we're inevitably going to stumble over the very things we seek in the darkness.

ok ill drop the point about the Chinese to focus more on the issue That I think we disagree with the most and thats the whole educated people are more morale.

I could think of a variety of intellegent people off the top of my head such as those in Nazi Germany for One, as well as the people leading communist russia, that are very immoral. Those intellegent people in those countries did horrible things, and they thought they were in the right!

do you have any data that might support your side, cause I get what you saying but i just dont see a link with the real world.

ohhh and I like what you did with my quote but unfortuantely that isnt what he means

 

[Smoke]

Fortunately, there's a full moon tonight, so we can fix this. We just need to get as many people as possible to go out at midnight and bury a McGuffey Reader with a silver coin and seven hairs from a science teacher's beard.

 

[Reptillian]

ok ill drop the point about the Chinese to focus more on the issue That I think we disagree with the most and thats the whole educated people are more morale.

I could think of a variety of intellegent people off the top of my head such as those in Nazi Germany for One, as well as the people leading communist russia, that are very immoral. Those intellegent people in those countries did horrible things, and they thought they were in the right!

do you have any data that might support your side, cause I get what you saying but i just dont see a link with the real world.

ohhh and I like what you did with my quote but unfortuantely that isnt what he means

My claim is pretty standard Socratic philosophy. Many philosophers feel the same way about the relationship between education, knowledge, and virtue. Confucius comes to mind. I figure if both Plato and Confucius agree on something, it must be golden. I'll see if I can find some statistics, but educated countries seem pretty free to me as a general rule. I think of places like Sweden and Japan. Also think of prison populations, the vast majority of criminals lack education. I think most educated criminals were probably put in places of power and were corrupted by it. They falsely believed that evil would benefit them and were ignorant of the consequences.

As for the quote, are you sure that isn't what Seneca meant? If not, how do you interpret his statement?