Amazingly bad (Obi wan Starwars)

[SomeRandom]

Agree, Stranger things 4 is going a bit more dark again which I think is good as season 3 got a bit to much on the comedian side in my opinion. I really enjoy the humor in it especially in season 1-2 I think it is delivered absolutely perfect, but its a fine balance, the dark, twisted, weirdness is what is cool I think, so that is good. Also its only the first part of season 4.

I think this clip is a good example of how it is delivered in a fun way, from season 3. And I think people that have watched Stranger things understand why it works, because the characters have so much personalities.

I’m excited for a darker ST

I agree that all the characters are likeable and well rounded. Even Billy is fairly likeable and relatable in some ways. The reveal of his father’s treatment of him was a clever (if dark) way of humanising the character.

Stranger Things works largely because it banks on the nostalgia of the 80s (something somewhat shared by even 90s kids, due to the constant pop culture references and bleed over effect.) Also it’s just well written
It utilises the era well, it has appropriate messages and even has an occasional nod to diversity.
I won’t say in which capacity, due to that being a bit of a spoiler for a character. But I thought it was a great reveal. And it actually does it correctly. It informs the character without making it their entire personality. Refreshing to say the least

I think the lighter tone worked for season 3 personally. The kids are starting to grow up, starting to change and their interests are becoming more complicated. So there is a sense of excitement at the future mixed in with the era’s sense of style and over the top quirkiness everyone seems to fondly remember. (Like I said, even people who weren’t born in the era seem to have fond memories of such.)
Younger audiences can also connect to the themes of growing up and of the possibilities of bourgeoning adulthood. They can see how their parents might have spent their childhood or even grandparents (oh god, isn’t that weird to think about? 80s kids now being possible grandparents. Wow!)

But to get back to Star wars, the humor in the first 3 original movies are delivered very well and then it just went overboard in the first 2 movies, especially the first one with JarJar and young Darth Vader, which is the primary reason I think it is so bad, they simply tried to hard to make it funny and it simply didn't work, because the characters just weren't there to carry it.

Well I can’t argue with you there. Jar Jar is indeed beyond cringe. Like yeesh! Even as a kid I hated him

As much as I do legitimately like the OG trilogy, I’ll admit it may be a bit too “old fashioned” for this millennial at times. Sorry

I think the structure of making series like that, where each episode is it own little story works perfect for stuff like Fraiser, Spin city, South park etc. where you can get a quick 30 minute entertainment and you can watch them in any order you want without it really matter.

Yeah, whilst I can agree with that.
There is something to be said for the “slow burn” that is actually quite in vogue right now. Kids shows have even done this, including many acclaimed Disney shows. They start out kind of simple, as little entertaining little shorts that people can kind of get a chuckle out of and that’s it.
And then slowly reveal more and more complexity as the season progresses. Turning a show that can be viewed in any order into something you should view in order so you can appreciate it the most.

I think that’s what they were angling for in the Mandalorian. Though they may not have been very comfortable in translating that formula for the slightly older (well older than their usual) demographic. Which I think is why it’s a little clunky.
Though Baby Yoda is still adorbs lol

 

[Aštra’el]

When I think Star Wars, I mostly think of… Episodes 1/2/3/4/5/6, KOTOR 1 & 2, SWTOR, Clone Wars, Twilight of the Apprentice (and some other Rebels) and Force Unleashed. Maybe Fallen Order.

I don’t have high hopes for SW: OW but we’ll see what happens.

 

[Nimos]

I think the lighter tone worked for season 3 personally. The kids are starting to grow up, starting to change and their interests are becoming more complicated. So there is a sense of excitement at the future mixed in with the era’s sense of style and over the top quirkiness everyone seems to fondly remember. (Like I said, even people who weren’t born in the era seem to have fond memories of such.)
Younger audiences can also connect to the themes of growing up and of the possibilities of bourgeoning adulthood. They can see how their parents might have spent their childhood or even grandparents (oh god, isn’t that weird to think about? 80s kids now being possible grandparents. Wow!)

My issue is not really about the kids growing up, but for instance in the clip above the black girl that is sitting next to Dustin, is in my opinion over the edge in how she behaves, she works well in the first two seasons because she is hardly in them. But her character is way to calm or not caring compared to what is actually going on and I don't like that. Also I think they could have portrait the Russians better, they are a bit to comical and I don't really like that Russian terminator looking guy and I don't think the whole side plot with El's "sister" were needed, they should just have skipped that. Those are pretty much my only concerns with season 3, its still entertaining, but not as strong as the other two seasons.

Compared to other series, I would rate this as high as something like Game of thrones when it comes to entertainment value. Obviously can't compare them straight up as they are very different genres.

Even Billy is fairly likeable and relatable in some ways. The reveal of his father’s treatment of him was a clever (if dark) way of humanising the character.

I really like his character, again he is suppose to be this mean guy/player, but I agree, he as pretty much all the other characters except those mentioned above have a lot of personality and he works well.

As much as I do legitimately like the OG trilogy, I’ll admit it may be a bit too “old fashioned” for this millennial at times. Sorry

I agree and it should also move on when they make new movies that fit the time. But there is some things in movies that sort of define them, so for instance in Star wars, you have R2D2 and C3PO, which deliver some humor but without being clowns running around. You have Han solo and his character, again delivering the humor without being to much. Said in another way, it is intelligent delivered humor, like it is in Stranger things. Whereas in the newer Star wars, the humor is poorly delivered or thought out, its sort of like "clown/cartoon humor" because the writers simply weren't good enough:

I think that’s what they were angling for in the Mandalorian. Though they may not have been very comfortable in translating that formula for the slightly older (well older than their usual) demographic. Which I think is why it’s a little clunky.
Though Baby Yoda is still adorbs lol

I don't know exactly what is wrong, but to me maybe they simply don't know how to make strong or interesting characters, some of morality in the movies are so freaking twisted that you are amazed that Disney even dared doing it. Like Ray kissing the evil guy??? I mean WTF? The guy killed millions, potentially billions of people when he blew up several planets, he also killed his own father in front of her. And then she falls in love with him... are you kidding me, what sort of message is that to send to young people?

Besides that, one of the biggest problem with all these new Star wars movies/series is that they are and can't be exciting. Meaning that Obi wan, Leia, Luke or any other characters in any of these movies can't be in any danger whatsoever, because we know how all of them dies later on, so it is absolutely impossible to make it exciting or make you worry about any of them.

 

[SomeRandom]

My issue is not really about the kids growing up, but for instance in the clip above the black girl that is sitting next to Dustin, is in my opinion over the edge in how she behaves, she works well in the first two seasons because she is hardly in them. But her character is way to calm or not caring compared to what is actually going on and I don't like that. Also I think they could have portrait the Russians better, they are a bit to comical and I don't really like that Russian terminator looking guy and I don't think the whole side plot with El's "sister" were needed, they should just have skipped that. Those are pretty much my only concerns with season 3, its still entertaining, but not as strong as the other two seasons.

I can agree with that.
I kind of like the “black girl” (blanking on her name right now, whoops.)
But her character can be a bit much at times during the third season.
And yeah they could have tightened it a bit. I think it’s likely they may have had to “tone things down” and add in comic relief due to distributed concerns or producers notes. Wouldn’t be shocked if the brothers made some concessions during production

Usually how things go.

Compared to other series, I would rate this as high as something like Game of thrones when it comes to entertainment value. Obviously can't compare them straight up as they are very different genres.

GoT is awesome. Ending aside, which we not mention lol

I really like his character, again he is suppose to be this mean guy/player, but I agree, he as pretty much all the other characters except those mentioned above have a lot of personality and he works well.

Yeah, he started out a bit douchey with the typical 80s hair. But you see that in his own way he did care for his sister and tried his best to protect her the only way he knew how. It’s just that he didn’t have a good example and was bullied by his overbearing bigoted father.

I agree and it should also move on when they make new movies that fit the time. But there is some things in movies that sort of define them, so for instance in Star wars, you have R2D2 and C3PO, which deliver some humor but without being clowns running around. You have Han solo and his character, again delivering the humor without being to much. Said in another way, it is intelligent delivered humor, like it is in Stranger things. Whereas in the newer Star wars, the humor is poorly delivered or thought out, its sort of like "clown/cartoon humor" because the writers simply weren't good enough:

Many seemed to have blamed Lucas specifically for such issues. Apparently he had to reign himself in during the OG trilogy and his producer (I think Spielberg but I dunno) sort of kept him in check.
That’s the story anyway.

I don't know exactly what is wrong, but to me maybe they simply don't know how to make strong or interesting characters, some of morality in the movies are so freaking twisted that you are amazed that Disney even dared doing it. Like Ray kissing the evil guy??? I mean WTF? The guy killed millions, potentially billions of people when he blew up several planets, he also killed his own father in front of her. And then she falls in love with him... are you kidding me, what sort of message is that to send to young people?

Besides that, one of the biggest problem with all these new Star wars movies/series is that they are and can't be exciting. Meaning that Obi wan, Leia, Luke or any other characters in any of these movies can't be in any danger whatsoever, because we know how all of them dies later on, so it is absolutely impossible to make it exciting or make you worry about any of them.

Yeah, that’s fair criticism. It all comes down to personal taste I think

 

[SomeRandom]

Okay now I’ve seen the first two eps.
Honestly?

I thought it was fine. Maybe you lowered my expectations too much @Nimos

I mean okay the editing is a bit wonky sometimes, but most first episodes of anything tend to be anyway.
I’m willing to give benefit of the doubt to that inquisitor lady. She didn’t seem that intimidating but maybe that’s just going to be her character arc. That she grows more confident and becomes more obsessed to be proven right as a result.

Production seems fine. It is after all a mini web series so I doubt their budget is going to equal that of the movies (any of them.) Honestly seems pretty decent, imo
With the exception of the chase scene with Leia. Okay I agree, that was awful. But I suppose you could just argue it was the “force” helping her lol

I’ve honestly seen far worse. Including the old Star Wars (ever see the Star Wars Christmas special from like the 70s? Even Lucas won’t claim that train wreck lmao!)

It just seems like a decent SW entry and I’m kind of excited to see where it goes.
Though I can see it bringing in some plot holes lol

That said, I’ve always felt the franchise was always too bogged down in having to tie in with the OG trilogy. Which is probably why I liked the Mandalorian. I could just explore the actual world of the franchise without needing to know how Luke and Darth Vader tied into it all. I suspected they would, even whilst watching. But it didn’t need them to function. If that makes sense? So I liked the breathing room.

 

[Nimos]

Okay now I’ve seen the first two eps.
Honestly?

I thought it was fine. Maybe you lowered my expectations too much @Nimos

I mean okay the editing is a bit wonky sometimes, but most first episodes of anything tend to be anyway.
I’m willing to give benefit of the doubt to that inquisitor lady. She didn’t seem that intimidating but maybe that’s just going to be her character arc. That she grows more confident and becomes more obsessed to be proven right as a result.

Production seems fine. It is after all a mini web series so I doubt their budget is going to equal that of the movies (any of them.) Honestly seems pretty decent, imo
With the exception of the chase scene with Leia. Okay I agree, that was awful. But I suppose you could just argue it was the “force” helping her lol

I’ve honestly seen far worse. Including the old Star Wars (ever see the Star Wars Christmas special from like the 70s? Even Lucas won’t claim that train wreck lmao!)

It just seems like a decent SW entry and I’m kind of excited to see where it goes.
Though I can see it bringing in some plot holes lol

That said, I’ve always felt the franchise was always too bogged down in having to tie in with the OG trilogy. Which is probably why I liked the Mandalorian. I could just explore the actual world of the franchise without needing to know how Luke and Darth Vader tied into it all. I suspected they would, even whilst watching. But it didn’t need them to function. If that makes sense? So I liked the breathing room.

Its obviously a matter of taste

I think its poor filmmaking whether it had been Star Wars or not.

I agree that they should have left the old characters alone or at least have approached them very differently, than they had. If I had been Disney, I don't think I would have made any movies specifically about the original characters, like Solo, Obi wan etc. but have kept them more of a myth, in the sense that they could have told stories in the period of where the lived, so for instance in obi wan, you could have had all the characters and simply made them side characters, so Leia would have been princess etc. but not a main character, you might simply be made aware that she is there. Obi wan could have appeared and help whatever new main character the story were about, but more like a mythical character, so they exist in the world, but without them trying to give a full story of what these characters are actually doing. Not only would they not ruin the old characters, but it would also make for better stories, because they could make you care about the main characters since they wouldn't be save. And in honesty I think a lot of these old characters come with to much baggage which makes it difficult for them to really make interesting stories around them, compared to a fresh character.

For instance, the Obi wan story, could have been about that jedi in the tavern instead, and obi wan would simply be this guide or mythical jedi master that tries to help or guide him, sort of like how Gandalf appears in lord of the rings, but maybe even more on the sideline. And you might run into the original characters on/off as they make more and more movies and series.

But for me personally, I have a really difficult time with being excited about Obi wans adventure, when I already know how he is going to die, but also im not interested in some random bad guys/girls chasing him, because the fight is between Obi wan and Darth Vader. So we already know that the bad guys are going to fail, whereas if it were about that other Jedi and maybe some other characters, we don't need them to succeed, we don't know if the bad people get them or not etc.

I think Disney got to hooked up on trying to tell the story of these old characters, especially since they really haven't demonstrated that they are capable of doing it and in honesty they have pretty much ruined all of them, in my opinion. I think they only lack Chewbacca, Joda and Darth Vader now and the circle is complete.

 

[SomeRandom]

Its obviously a matter of taste

Of course
And all of us have our right to our own opinion

I think its poor filmmaking whether it had been Star Wars or not.

I agree that they should have left the old characters alone or at least have approached them very differently, than they had. If I had been Disney, I don't think I would have made any movies specifically about the original characters, like Solo, Obi wan etc. but have kept them more of a myth, in the sense that they could have told stories in the period of where the lived, so for instance in obi wan, you could have had all the characters and simply made them side characters, so Leia would have been princess etc. but not a main character, you might simply be made aware that she is there. Obi wan could have appeared and help whatever new main character the story were about, but more like a mythical character, so they exist in the world, but without them trying to give a full story of what these characters are actually doing. Not only would they not ruin the old characters, but it would also make for better stories, because they could make you care about the main characters since they wouldn't be save. And in honesty I think a lot of these old characters come with to much baggage which makes it difficult for them to really make interesting stories around them, compared to a fresh character.

Oh I completely agree with you.
Even with the prequel trilogy. Yeah I like them because I grew up with them. But it was so much cooler when you left it up the imagination.
It’s not like prequels are automatically bad or anything. I loved the Hannibal Series (for the most part.) But there are some things better left unsaid imo.
It just depends I guess. With Star Wars originally I think the vagueness really left more of an impact. That might be down to how Lucas originally envisioned the series. Maybe he was hampered by budget (which seems to be the case, but I honestly don’t know.)
Sometimes when you don’t always have a clear vision from the outset, and when that happens it can dampen the prequels, if you make any. If you have a clear vision of your product from start to finish, you can expound upon it in flashbacks much better.
It depends on the writer. I honestly think that was the case for Lucas (just see his various re-edits of the OG trilogy.)

For instance, the Obi wan story, could have been about that jedi in the tavern instead, and obi wan would simply be this guide or mythical jedi master that tries to help or guide him, sort of like how Gandalf appears in lord of the rings, but maybe even more on the sideline. And you might run into the original characters on/off as they make more and more movies and series.

Oh I agree with you there. That would have been more fun to explore
See how his journey was impacted by Ben, before, during and after. I get why they focused on Obi Wan. His is a recognisable name. But still

But for me personally, I have a really difficult time with being excited about Obi wans adventure, when I already know how he is going to die, but also im not interested in some random bad guys/girls chasing him, because the fight is between Obi wan and Darth Vader. So we already know that the bad guys are going to fail, whereas if it were about that other Jedi and maybe some other characters, we don't need them to succeed, we don't know if the bad people get them or not etc.

Okay that’s fair.
I think I’m kind of craving SW right now. So I tend to be forgiving in such pursuits of writing. Mainly because I read comics and honestly that’s a cliche in that genre really lol

I think Disney got to hooked up on trying to tell the story of these old characters, especially since they really haven't demonstrated that they are capable of doing it and in honesty they have pretty much ruined all of them, in my opinion. I think they only lack Chewbacca, Joda and Darth Vader now and the circle is complete.

In fairness so did Lucas. See the prequels and like I said the Christmas Special from like the 70s or 80s
And his hand is directly in the prequels just to be clear
In all honesty Lucas tampered with the franchise much more than Disney has. Even now. Which is honestly kind of impressive

 

[Nimos]

Oh I completely agree with you.
Even with the prequel trilogy. Yeah I like them because I grew up with them. But it was so much cooler when you left it up the imagination.
It’s not like prequels are automatically bad or anything. I loved the Hannibal Series (for the most part.) But there are some things better left unsaid imo.
It just depends I guess. With Star Wars originally I think the vagueness really left more of an impact. That might be down to how Lucas originally envisioned the series. Maybe he was hampered by budget (which seems to be the case, but I honestly don’t know.)
Sometimes when you don’t always have a clear vision from the outset, and when that happens it can dampen the prequels, if you make any. If you have a clear vision of your product from start to finish, you can expound upon it in flashbacks much better.
It depends on the writer. I honestly think that was the case for Lucas (just see his various re-edits of the OG trilogy.)

As you, I don't know what went wrong, if any, maybe he wanted it to be like that.

But for me, I would have started the story much later, when Anakin were older, because lets be honest, most kids at that age are pretty terrible actors, which can be fine if they have a very small part and few dialogs, but in the first movie he has a huge role and you need an exceptional good kid actor to pull that off in my opinion. And also I think Lucas, given the time between the original SW movies and these, simply misread the seriousness of the franchise or what to say. What people found funny in the first ones as we have talked about, with R2D2, Han solo etc. he some how tried to recreate or take to a new level with JarJar, Anakin, and even those weird looking robots, with some fast "clever", one punch cartoon humor and it simply didn't land. It just made the movie or universe seem like a joke in my opinion. If these robots etc. are so bad and incompetent as they are, you don't really buy how they manage to gain control of anything at all. And then you had that 30 minutes pod racer thing, which most of all, seemed to simply be there to make some advertising for an upcoming computer game or something.

Had he made it more serious I think it would have worked a lot better. Because the problem with comedy in my opinion, is that if it fails it can ruin a whole movie. Its not like a bad action scene or something, where you might simply not be extremely excited about it, but it doesn't ruin the character.
JarJar is completely ruined by the failure of comedy. Some of the things that Anakin do and say, are so far off, that you simply don't buy that a kid of that age would say or do something like that. And in honesty I think the Obi wan series have the same issue with Leia, they are trying to turn a kid into an adult, but then not really because they want to keep the charm of the kid, and I have never seen that work.

Comparing that to how well the kids in Stranger things acts, because they have those 4-5 extra years to mature, makes a world of difference. So had they started the series when Anakin were at that age instead, there is a huge chance that it would have made for a much better movie in my opinion.

In regards to Hannibal, haven't seen it my self, but I think you can easier do it with that one, because he is a villain and also you can play on the psychological aspect of the character, maybe show the transformation etc. There is more depth to such character than there is a "Hero/good" character, especially in Star wars, where the characters are not really the most fleshed out ones in movie history. Han solo, a smart, fast guy with a slightly corky personality. Luke is a hopeful dreamer, that want to fight for the good. Its not like we get any deep insight into them.
Its basically a shallow story about good vs evil. And good characters are just slightly boring unless they have flaws or conflicts. Also why I think a character like Rey especially, is such an empty shell of a character, absolutely no flaws or real conflicts, in fact all the characters that Disney made in their SW movies are so boring and without personality that they are simply not memorable.

And maybe that is the issue, they have these original characters, which are shallow, but they are trying to give them more personality, and when they clearly ain't capable of doing it, it just utterly fails. And we end up with characters like Luke, which is nothing like how he were in the original movies, I mean they just slaughtered that character straight up and everything he stood for.

If you watch this short range of interviews with Mark Hamilton, its pretty obvious that he didn't agree with what direction they were taking him, and in all honesty they should have listen to him, rather than just making up stuff about Luke, because they clearly didn't understand the character.

 

[Nimos]

With Star Wars originally I think the vagueness really left more of an impact. That might be down to how Lucas originally envisioned the series. Maybe he was hampered by budget

I think this guy has a point as well.

 

[SomeRandom]

I think this guy has a point as well.

Ehh they said roughly the same things about talkie movies when that became a thing. And funnily enough I think Flash Gordon when that became a thing. Which is funny since that was part of the inspiration behind OG Star Wars lol

I find that such criticism of so called modern movies often boils down to modern Hollywood tropes. But Hollywood is but a fraction of cinema.

Maybe branch out and see what world cinema has to offer?

And SW is a franchise played to death at this point. Obviously you’re going to have a lot of mere money grabs and shallowness. That’s just part of the parcel. It’s the same for Star Trek, Batman, Marvel or really any big franchise.
Sometimes you’ll find a gem and when you do, rejoice I say
To complain about the so called modern problems of such is practically a cliche at this point. I think such concentrated negativity is exhausting but that’s just me.


Also Critical Drinker? He’s a bit too negative for my tastes. A Reactionary as they say. Just looking for complaints.
I prefer Cinema Snob or Chris Stuckman or even Jeremy Jahns personally. Someone who understands movie making, can be critical of tropes but knows how to just enjoy something as well. But to each their own.

 

[Nimos]

Ehh they said roughly the same things about talkie movies when that became a thing.
I find that such criticism of so called modern movies often boils down to modern Hollywood tropes. But Hollywood is but a fraction of cinema.

Maybe branch out and see what world cinema has to offer?

Also Critical Drinker? He’s a bit too negative for my tastes. Just looking for complaints
I prefer Cinema Snob or Chris Stuckman personally. But whatever.

I don't know, I think he has a point with a lot of these Hollywood movies, its more dumbed down movies with very little depth to them. I have also discussed it with some of my friends, which think that the Star Wars movies are ok. But the excuse always seems to be that it looks cool and besides that its just an action movie so it doesn't matter that much.
Which I don't really agree with, just because it is an action/adventure movie, doesn't mean the story and characters shouldn't be solid, that doesn't ruin an action movie, its like people have no expectations for these types of movies, everything flies as long as there is just enough visual effects to melt your brain, and I don't think it should be covered up or explained away how poorly written these stories and characters are, just because it is action movies. And im not talking about making deep complex stories here, simply that they are consistent.

And I agree Hollywood is not all of cinema and do watch a lot of foreign stuff as well, but we also know that when we get the good instructors and writers, that Hollywood can produce some of the best action movies. Remember that all of these came from there originally.
Its just this new "Hollywood" that doesn't give a rats *** about them. But I also don't think people should give credit for bad filmmaking, especially when they take iconic movies like Star wars and then just ruin them, at least they could come up with their own stuff and ideas, like the Mandalorian.

I don't really know this Critical drinker and yes he seem negative, but I don't think its unfunded and I tend to think that a lot of people have simply gotten used to this lower quality, because it has become the norm.

 

[SomeRandom]

I don't know, I think he has a point with a lot of these Hollywood movies, its more dumbed down movies with very little depth to them. I have also discussed it with some of my friends, which think that the Star Wars movies are ok. But the excuse always seems to be that it looks cool and besides that its just an action movie so it doesn't matter that much.
Which I don't really agree with, just because it is an action/adventure movie, doesn't mean the story and characters shouldn't be solid, that doesn't ruin an action movie, its like people have no expectations for these types of movies, everything flies as long as there is just enough visual effects to melt your brain, and I don't think it should be covered up or explained away how poorly written these stories and characters are, just because it is action movies. And im not talking about making deep complex stories here, simply that they are consistent.

Well in the case of Star Wars the franchise, to be fair, it has been inconsistent since like the 70s. Everyone only likes to remember the OG trilogy when they talk of the old SW. But like I said, there’s the infamously awful Christmas Special from like the 70s, I’m pretty sure a random Ewoks tv show that was cringe from the 80s, the prequels that everyone praised at first then hated (well adults at the time did, mellinials just loved it) the actually pretty solid Clone Wars series which fixed freaking Anakin damnit it!! And of course the sequel trilogy and further. And like I said, Lucas himself seems to prefer flashy special effects over storytelling. Again compare his updates of the original trilogy to the actual original trilogy. SW was a neat idea that blew up. You will have good and bad things that come from it. That’s capitalism for you

Speaking as a mellenial, the OG Star Wars is anything but complex or even anything that well written. It’s honestly just a bunch of shallow references to Eastern Mysticism, a run of the mill good vs evil story, a splash of Indiana Jones (in more ways than one haha) and a fun little subversion of the love triangle trope.
The characters are all kind of cliche to be honest. They just had actors with enough charisma to pull it off. And some cool ideas mixed in. Robots, aliens, space, space battles etc
That goes a long way
I do legitimately like the trilogy don’t get me wrong, but it’s always been just flashy cool action. That it’s covered in rust originally doesn’t mean it didn’t bank on flashy effects. It just had a limited budget at the time, so it’s an easier sell to claim it didn’t rely on SFX. At least to those who only know of modern effects.

I think people are way too hard on the new Star Wars. Preferring their nostalgia of the OG viewed through rose coloured glasses. Even as I agree that it’s a mixed bag at best.
And ironically enough that’s what Disney seems to be banking on for profit. Everyone’s nostalgia and the lowered expectations that comes with an overhyped and overplayed franchise. And I mean they’re not exactly barking up the wrong tree. At least in terms of profit margins.

And I agree Hollywood is not all of cinema and do watch a lot of foreign stuff as well, but we also know that when we get the good instructors and writers, that Hollywood can produce some of the best action movies. Remember that all of these came from their originally. Its just this new "Hollywood" that doesn't give a rats *** about them. But I also don't think people should give credit for bad filmmaking, especially when they take iconic movies like Star wars and then just ruin them, at least they could come up with their own stuff and ideas, like the Mandalorian.

Okay I agree with you there.

But like I said, this all could be said of Hollywood in general since the end of the silent era. Some people poo pooed Universal for their OG creature features for a while. Oh just stupid violent junk that only children will enjoy.
Only for them to be reappraised and indeed remade countlessly later on. Usually for the worse but with a few gems here and there.
But even before that the company absolutely ran their successful franchises into the dirt with countless pandering sequels.
With the only exception being Bride of Frankenstein, an actual good sequel lol
And of course all their crossovers with Abbot and Costello.
Seriously though, what was up with that?

(I’m still bitter at the waste that was the Van Helsing movie. Such an awesome concept that should have been cool just on principle alone. Butchered and made boring. Ughhh!)

I don't really know this Critical drinker and yes he seem negative, but I don't think its unfunded and I tend to think that a lot of people have simply gotten used to this lower quality, because it has become the norm.

In fairness I only vaguely know of Critical Drinker. Maybe he’s a fantastic critic.
He just reminds me too much of my old Anti SJW days. So that just puts me off from the get go. Just too negative.
Maybe I’m being unfair, because I think I’d likely agree with at least some of his criticisms.

Be careful to ascribe quality to one era of filmmaking over another.
I find that in all eras there are good and bad movies. The good ones are remembered in the long run. So it just appears better when one looks back and conveniently forgets all the same stupid pandering nonsense that the same era spat out

 

[Nimos]

Well in the case of Star Wars the franchise, to be fair, it has been inconsistent since like the 70s. Everyone only likes to remember the OG trilogy when they talk of the old SW. But like I said, there’s the infamously awful Christmas Special from like the 70s, I’m pretty sure a random Ewoks tv show that was cringe from the 80s, the prequels that everyone praised at first then hated (well adults at the time did, mellinials just loved it) the actually pretty solid Clone Wars series which fixed freaking Anakin damnit it!! And of course the sequel trilogy and further. And like I said, Lucas himself seems to prefer flashy special effects over storytelling. Again compare his updates of the original trilogy to the actual original trilogy. SW was a neat idea that blew up. You will have good and bad things that come from it. That’s capitalism for you

I didn't know they made those Christmas things, but obviously they didn't make it into the actual story. Were they just made for fun or what was the purpose of them?

Are you referring to this?

Speaking as a mellenial, the OG Star Wars is anything but complex or even anything that well written. It’s honestly just a bunch of shallow references to Eastern Mysticism, a run of the mill good vs evil story, a splash of Indiana Jones (in more ways than one haha) and a fun little subversion of the love triangle trope.
The characters are all kind of cliche to be honest. They just had actors with enough charisma to pull it off. And some cool ideas mixed in. Robots, aliens, space, space battles etc
That goes a long way
I do legitimately like the trilogy don’t get me wrong, but it’s always been just flashy cool action. That it’s covered in rust originally doesn’t mean it didn’t bank on flashy effects. It just had a limited budget at the time, so it’s an easier sell to claim it didn’t rely on SFX. At least to those who only know of modern effects.

I completely agree, as I said its not a deep story, but still it is consistent, you have characters that develop throughout the story. You have Luke facing dilemmas, going in training, fighting evil while trying to save his father, you have Darth Vader which also have a conflict, you have the mystery of the Jedis etc. If you think about how luke was in the first movie and compare it to how he is here:

There is a huge development which makes him interesting as a character. Try to compare that to Rey:

From the first movie:

From the last movie:

Ok fair enough she washed her cloth, that is almost her complete character arc, she never fought for anything, had no real conflicts, doesn't really try to achieve anything.. she just got it all handed, because she has to be the best at everything for whatever reason.

So even though the OT weren't a complex deep story, compared to the Disney ones, it is a labyrinth of complexity. Because there is close to no character arc in the Disney ones or interesting personalities. And it end up making a story that is already shallow even more shallow, and I think its sad, because it could have been cool with a strong female Jedi as a new thing, but they have to give her character. The same with the storm trooper guy, its an interesting idea, but it goes no where, again because there is no character or personality written into the story for these characters.

And as I said, I know it is an action movie and we like seeing spaceships etc. but that shouldn't replace good writing, giving Rey and the storm trooper personality that help us relate to them would have made for a better movie. No one can relate to a character like Rey, because she is perfect and gets everything handed on a silver plate. She face Luke and beat him without any issues... really without any training? She beat Kylo several times again without any training? What exactly is at stake here, just fly over there and beat the crap out of Kylo.

Then you have the whole Emperor not dying, which not only ruins the entire OT, because Darth Vader and Luke fighting him was completely pointless, they didn't win at all. But also it ruins the story, because if the Emperor didn't die, why on Earth would he go hide on a planet, just because he lost the Death star, he still control all the star destroyers, planets, storm troopers etc. the rebellion even though they destroyed the Death star, also lost a huge amount of spaceships, so it makes absolutely no sense. And then suddenly we have this new order, which just replaced the Emperor and no one knows about it? Obviously Snoke is suppose to be the puppet of the him, yet when Kylo kills him, he doesn't react or anything? And why on Earth does he want to make a deal with them, they are already under his control and he already rule things, yet for some strange reason he still see a need for 10000 star destroyers with death rays on them... for what? he already have what he wants and he never lost it. Except offscreen without any explanation whatsoever.

That is what I mean with poor writing and filmmaking, there is no consistency in the story, because neither the characters or the story makes any sense, and as long as you don't think about it and is paralyzed by all the visual effects and action, then who cares. And I just think its annoying, because it shouldn't be like that just because it is an action movie, especially with something like Star Wars, spend the extra time and money writing a good story with interesting characters, they are going to make tons of money anyway.

 

[SomeRandom]

I didn't know they made those Christmas things, but obviously they didn't make it into the actual story. Where they just made for fun or what was the purpose of them?

The bad gets forgotten and the good lives on. Tis the circle of life

Are you referring to this?

Yeah that’s the one. It’s been mocked by pretty much every geek I know of lol
My cousin showed me bits of it out of context when I was a little kid. Honestly kind of scared me. Also I swear all the actors in it were high af lol

I completely agree, as I said its not a deep story, but still it is consistent, you have characters that develop throughout the story. You have Luke facing dilemmas, going in training, fighting evil while trying to save his father, you have Darth Vader which also have a conflict, you have the mystery of the Jedis etc. If you think about how luke was in the first movie and compare it to how he is here:

There is a huge development which makes him interesting as a character. Try to compare that to Rey:

From the first movie:
View attachment 63424

From the last movie:
View attachment 63425

Ok fair enough she washed her cloth, that is almost her complete character arc, she never fought for anything, had no real conflicts, doesn't really try to achieve anything.. she just got it all handed, because she has to be the best at everything for whatever reason.

So even though the OT weren't a complex deep story, compared to the Disney ones, it is a labyrinth of complexity. Because there is close to no character arc in the Disney ones or interesting personalities. And it end up making a story that is already shallow even more shallow, and I think its sad, because it could have been cool with a strong female Jedi as a new thing, but they have to give her character. The same with the storm trooper guy, its an interesting idea, but it goes no where, again because there is no character or personality written into the story for these characters.

And as I said, I know it is an action movie and we like seeing spaceships etc. but that should replace good writing, giving Rey and the storm trooper personality that help us relate to them would have made for a better movie. But no one can relate to a character like Rey, because she is perfect and gets everything handed on a silver plate. She face Luke and beat him without any issues... really without any training? She beat Kylo several times again without any training? What exactly is at stake here, just fly over there and beat the crap out of Kylo.

Then you have the whole Emperor not dying, that not only ruins the entire OT, because Darth Vader and Luke fighting him was completely pointless, they didn't win at all. But also it ruins the story, because if the Emperor didn't die, why on Earth would he go hide on a planet, just because he lost the Death star, he still control all the star destroyers, planets, storm troopers etc. the rebellion even though they destroyed the Death star, also lost a huge amount of spaceships, so it makes absolutely no sense. And then suddenly we have this new order, which just replaced the Emperor and no one knows about it? Obviously Snoke is suppose to be the puppet of the him, yet when Kylo kills him, he doesn't react or anything? And why on Earth does he want to make a deal with them, they are already under his control and he already rule things, yet for some strange reason he still see a need for 10000 star destroyers with death rays on them... for what? he already have what he wants and he never lost it. Except offscreen without any explanation whatsoever.

That is what I mean with poor writing and filmmaking, there is no consistency in the story, because neither the characters or the story makes any sense, and as long as you don't think about it and is paralyzed by all the visual effects and action, then who cares. And I just think its annoying, because it shouldn't be like that just because it is an action movie, especially with something like Star Wars, spend the extra time and money writing a good story with interesting characters, they are going to make tons of money anyway.

To be completely honest with you, I don’t see that much difference in quality between the two trilogies.

The characters are all 2 dimensional and their character arcs are mere tropes at best, nothing that special. Both rely on flashy spectacle and it’s often just kind of cringe in general.
Consistency? I mean the characters are all consistently cliche I suppose.

That said I do completely agree with you about the new trilogy. So much wasted potential, in all honesty. Which I suppose does make it worse in that regard.

Maybe I’m just too burnt out by the franchise to care all that much in the long run

For me Stargate SG1 is my Star Wars (and kind of my Star Trek ngl.)
I like the characters, the scenarios and sure there’s cringe to be found. And it kind of weirdly glorifies the US military at times. But I dunno, I just found it infinitely more interesting and it actually utilises the sci fi element much better than Lucas ever did.
Maybe that’s to do with how overplayed SW is. I mean I remember playing a computer game of Phantom Menace as a kid even.
So I dunno

 

[Nimos]

Yeah that’s the one. It’s been mocked by pretty much every geek I know of lol
My cousin showed me bits of it out of context when I was a little kid. Honestly kind of scared me. Also I swear all the actors in it were high af lol

I never seen it

To be completely honest with you, I don’t see that much difference in quality between the two trilogies.

The characters are all 2 dimensional and their character arcs are mere tropes at best, nothing that special. Both rely on flashy spectacle and it’s often just kind of cringe in general.
Consistency? I mean the characters are all consistently cliche I suppose.

That said I do completely agree with you about the new trilogy. So much wasted potential, in all honesty. Which I suppose does make it worse in that regard.

Maybe I’m just too burnt out by the franchise to care all that much in the long run

For me Stargate SG1 is my Star Wars (and kind of my Star Trek ngl.)
I like the characters, the scenarios and sure there’s cringe to be found. And it kind of weirdly glorifies the US military at times. But I dunno, I just found it infinitely more interesting and it actually utilises the sci fi element much better than Lucas ever did.
Maybe that’s to do with how overplayed SW is. I mean I remember playing a computer game of Phantom Menace as a kid even.
So I dunno

Its not really about Star wars as much as it being almost all the old classics that they get their hands on, that they ruin, because they don't really seem to understand them or they try to fit this new Hollywood "standard" on them. In all honesty I think they should just leave them alone and let them remain classics, instead of keep pulling them out of closet and try to make money of them. Instead they should make new things.

 

[SomeRandom]

I never seen it

Do yourself a favour and never rectify that lol

Unless you want to laugh at horribleness?

Its not really about Star wars as much as it being almost all the old classics that they get their hands on, that they ruin, because they don't really seem to understand them or they try to fit this new Hollywood "standard" on them. In all honesty I think they should just leave them alone and let them remain classics, instead of keep pulling them out of closet and try to make money of them. Instead they should make new things.

Well creativity and a capitalist market don’t always go hand in hand. Unfortunately a lot of popular film franchises represent easy cash grabs and companies will inevitably go for them. Monetary incentives and all that.

I suppose to be completely fair, remakes aren’t always necessarily disastrous either. The Ten Commandments movie, Old Boy, The Magnificent 7, The Departed, Scarface (yes, really that’s actually a remake) just to name a few successful ones.

 

[Nimos]

Do yourself a favour and never rectify that lol

Unless you want to laugh at horribleness?

Well to late I had a quick look and its pretty ****, not really sure what the idea of it was.

Well creativity and a capitalist market don’t always go hand in hand. Unfortunately a lot of popular film franchises represent easy cash grabs and companies will inevitably go for them. Monetary incentives and all that.

I suppose to be completely fair, remakes aren’t always necessarily disastrous either. The Ten Commandments movie, Old Boy, The Magnificent 7, The Departed, Scarface (yes, really that’s actually a remake) just to name a few successful ones.

But there is a difference between remakes and making a sequel or spinoff to something popular.

I personally didn't have a huge problem with the remake of the OT Star wars movies, I simply didn't think it was needed.

But a lot of people liked the Starship trooper movie for instance, personally I didn't. But clearly they should have stopped, same with terminator, aliens, predator, star trek spinoff, have only seen some of them and had to stop because they were terrible, haven't seen Picard, but heard that it should be absolutely awful.

The problem is not remakes I think, obviously they can be bad, but its when they keep dragging these franchises through the mud and its obvious that they don't really want to invest the money in them that things go wrong. Its still amazing to think that its almost the same IPs being shown now in the movies as it were 30-60 years ago, just with new a better visuals. One would just think that they would be able to create new ones.

Terminator - 1984
Star wars - 1977
Star trek - 1966-67
Aliens - 1986
Predator - 1987
Batman - 1943

Are there even any newer ones that are equally popular? You have the marvel stuff, but besides that are their any IPs that are not like ~45 years old?

Btw if you don't know Cinemasins it can be quite funny, its not to be taken serious, its just some people that give movies sins, whether they are good or bad.

 

[Revoltingest]

Saw it.
Not as cringeworthy as some stuff in the movies.

 

[SomeRandom]

Well to late I had a quick look and its pretty ****, not really sure what the idea of it was.

Yeah I think Lucas was umm trying some new things, if you catch my drift? Lol

But there is a difference between remakes and making a sequel or spinoff to something popular.

Ehh, I guess. Remakes or reboots are as old as cinema itself. It’s just part of the parcel with storytelling in general I guess.
I think people take for granted how much pressure sequels and spin offs can engender from an audience. And how it can be helpful sometimes.
It’s very very easy to annoy older fans of a franchise and you have to essentially try to make lightning strike twice. Usually it fails, true. But it can also be used to breath new life into a franchise or even explore different angles. It can be a helpful writing tool in some cases. With this happening a lot in YA fiction even. Soft reboots or reimaginings of classics used to revitalise, criticise and examine old stories. Probably easier to do in books since the audience expectations are different (and you can wiggle around some copyright lol.)
But there are sequels to popular franchises that I enjoy possibly more than the original. Like for instance Return to Oz. A sequel to the beloved Wizard of Oz movie, but based moreso on the books (with some nods to the OG movie adaption.)
Such an underrated movie

I personally didn't have a huge problem with the remake of the OT Star wars movies, I simply didn't think it was needed.

Is any movie really needed?

But a lot of people liked the Starship trooper movie for instance, personally I didn't. But clearly they should have stopped, same with terminator, aliens, predator, star trek spinoff, have only seen some of them and had to stop because they were terrible, haven't seen Picard, but heard that it should be absolutely awful.

Yeah studios tend to be quite indulgent. Like I said, there’s monetary incentive to be.

The problem is not remakes I think, obviously they can be bad, but its when they keep dragging these franchises through the mud and its obvious that they don't really want to invest the money in them that things go wrong. Its still amazing to think that its almost the same IPs being shown now in the movies as it were 30-60 years ago, just with new a better visuals. One would just think that they would be able to create new ones.

Terminator - 1984
Star wars - 1977
Star trek - 1966-67
Aliens - 1986
Predator - 1987
Batman - 1943

Are there even any newer ones that are equally popular? You have the marvel stuff, but besides that are their any IPs that are not like ~45 years old?

Well I mean Marvel is just as old, starting in the 30s as well as Batman. But regardless

There are popular spin offs that have done their own thing. Miles Morales is quite popular. A very clever take on an alternative character. And Into the Spiderverse was amazing!!! Such a fresh, original movie. I know that’s kind of ironic, since it’s technically based off a spin off character, but it’s honestly the best original (geek) movie I’ve seen in ages.

Harry Potter isn’t that old, honestly.

Disney is kind of hitting it out of the park with their latest original movies ironically enough. Encanto, Coco, Turning Red are all new IPs.

There are also successful tv show adaptions of popular books too. Shadow and Bone, Shadowhunters (personally prefer the books but it’s better than the awful movie adaption at least. Bleh!)
Apparently they’re doing a Vampire Academy series this year. Again awful movie adaption but I quite enjoyed the books as a kid.

There are new IPs all the time. Usually book adaptations but not always. Trends are trending is all. Nostalgia is trending particularly high, hence the suffocation of many old franchises.
Though some like the Witcher are still going strong so it’s not always a death grip. And I quite liked the latest iteration of Batman in cinemas. But there’s like a bajillion to choose from so meh. You kind of get used to it as a comics fan honestly lol

Btw if you don't know Cinemasins it can be quite funny, its not to be taken serious, its just some people that give movies sins, whether they are good or bad.

Ahh good old Cinemasins. Used to watch them all the time in high school. They apparently made a sister channel called Cinemawins lol

 

[Nimos]

Yeah I think Lucas was umm trying some new things, if you catch my drift? Lol

Think ill just forget all about it

Ehh, I guess. Remakes or reboots are as old as cinema itself. It’s just part of the parcel with storytelling in general I guess.
I think people take for granted how much pressure sequels and spin offs can engender from an audience. And how it can be helpful sometimes.
It’s very very easy to annoy older fans of a franchise and you have to essentially try to make lightning strike twice. Usually it fails, true. But it can also be used to breath new life into a franchise or even explore different angles. It can be a helpful writing tool in some cases. With this happening a lot in YA fiction even. Soft reboots or reimaginings of classics used to revitalise, criticise and examine old stories. Probably easier to do in books since the audience expectations are different (and you can wiggle around some copyright lol.)
But there are sequels to popular franchises that I enjoy possibly more than the original. Like for instance Return to Oz. A sequel to the beloved Wizard of Oz movie, but based moreso on the books (with some nods to the OG movie adaption.)
Such an underrated movie

There is not wrong as such with doing sequels, its just that one has to be extremely careful, because in many cases you are messing with something which became popular for a reason. For instance seeing the upcoming Lord of the rings series, which might be good or it might not, but they are playing with fire in my opinion, because LOTR is a very established universe and obviously loved by a lot of people, but they are messing around with the lore, inventing things and changing stuff which are simply not part of the universe. And something like that can really **** of fans, but also if they are not well into the lore of why things are as they are, they could ruin stuff as it is done with Star wars. When they do these things and want to change something, if its just smaller things no problem, but if it potentially ruin LOTR and the hobbit so they suddenly doesn't make sense, then it would annoy me. I don't get the impression that it will, so im not to worried. But at least in my opinion, if you want to make sequels or spin offs, you have to do it, within the established lore.

Return to Oz was a good one agree, but then again its were made way past the current Hollywood standard, so that could explain why

Well I mean Marvel is just as old, starting in the 30s as well as Batman. But regardless

There are popular spin offs that have done their own thing. Miles Morales is quite popular. A very clever take on an alternative character. And Into the Spiderverse was amazing!!! Such a fresh, original movie. I know that’s kind of ironic, since it’s technically based off a spin off character, but it’s honestly the best original (geek) movie I’ve seen in ages.

Harry Potter isn’t that old, honestly.

Disney is kind of hitting it out of the park with their latest original movies ironically enough. Encanto, Coco, Turning Red are all new IPs.

There are also successful tv show adaptions of popular books too. Shadow and Bone, Shadowhunters (personally prefer the books but it’s better than the awful movie adaption at least. Bleh!)
Apparently they’re doing a Vampire Academy series this year. Again awful movie adaption but I quite enjoyed the books as a kid.

There are new IPs all the time. Usually book adaptations but not always. Trends are trending is all. Nostalgia is trending particularly high, hence the suffocation of many old franchises.
Though some like the Witcher are still going strong so it’s not always a death grip. And I quite liked the latest iteration of Batman in cinemas. But there’s like a bajillion to choose from so meh. You kind of get used to it as a comics fan honestly lol

Yeah Harry potter is new and probably also the biggest one I would guess.

And in all honesty, I kind of feel like we are in the era of series rather than movies There is a lot of really good ones having been made the last many years. I mean Game of Thrones, except for the last season, would have been an absolute masterpiece for years to come. Stranger things is up there in my opinion. Really like Spartacus, Boardwalk empire were really good. So they at least can make good series.

But just saw that Obi wan episode 3 is out, so wish me luck.. im going in!!