AMA - Vinayaka

[Vinayaka]

This is mostly for JustGeorge, but also DS and Jedster. I'll start with kavadi, as it's kind of dramatic. Kavadi (google it) is an ancient Tamil practice that was outlawed by the British in India, but was sustained in the sugar diaspora by those who left India to countries where it wasn't banned, mainly Malaysia, Mauritius, and Fiji. In those places it took on a new momentum of it's very own.

I first heard about it in 1984, on a spiritual retreat in Mauritius with my Guru. I was immediately fascinated by the stories of devotees, and watched as others in the group had their Abrahamic reactions. So 30 years later when we returned to the small island, I was finally able to participate, although in a small way, compared to my local friends there. A close friend guided me. I had 4 piercings done, one through the cheek, both sides, and 2 smaller ones on the temples. Then we paraded for about a mile to a small Murugan temple.

There are at least 3 spiritual reasons for kavadi, and a couple not so spiritual. Kavadi is always done for Murugan, although that might be disputed, as some could do it for Amman. One is to appease guilt from misdeeds, like volunteering to take on the karma. Another is to prepay, or 'clear the way' when intuitive feelings have a sense of dread, or a round of your karma hitting you where it hurts. A third is a 'thank you' for prayers answered. So if a prayer for somebody to get healthy, for good results on exams, etc., and individual can show their sincerity to Murugan. For me personally, it was reason 1, but also 2. The 'false' reasons are to show how tough you are, or on dares. That was never the intent, but it remains a reason in some places for some people. There is also the reason that it's just what we do on this particular festival, with no real reason.

Since 2014, I've done it here twice, and was the only one in our temple each time, at Thai Pusam. Lots or people carrying milk pots, but me being only person getting pierced. It was challenging to find a piercer, but eventually I went into a western counterculture, and found a willing person. First time was 6 limes across my chest (hooks are inserted, and limes are hung on them.) and the cheeks and temples. The second time, just 2 weeks back, was 2 limes on the back, temples, cheeks, and tongue.

The amazing thing about kavadi is that it just feels so darn good after. There is some kind of euphoric causing hormone released, I'm not sure of those details.

There we go. AMA (Please no judging, or I will be out.)

 

[Debater Slayer]

[...] but also DS and Jedster.

Should I move this to Interfaith Discussion or the Interview Place? Non-Hindus can't post in the DIR.

 

[Vinayaka]

Should I move this to Interfaith Discussion or the Interview Place? Non-Hindus can't post in the DIR.

Oh sorry, yes, please move it. TIA.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Oh sorry, yes, please move it. TIA.

Done!

 

[dybmh]

AMA

If it's not too personal, would you please describe one of your most powerful / impactful mystical experiences, and maybe the circumstances which contributed to it?

 

[Vinayaka]

If it's not too personal, would you please describe one of your most powerful / impactful mystical experiences, and maybe the circumstances which contributed to it?

There are many, and now it's commonplace, but the first 2 I can remember were in my late teens. The first one was driving a grain swather in an empty field, and getting an overwhelming sense that there was 'something else' via a rush of energy. That one changed me from an atheist to a doubter, so that had an impact. The second one (that I can recall having a huge impact) was in Vancouver BC in about 1971 or so when I saw a brass statue of Nataraja for the first time. (Again, rush of indescribable energy) It stuck in my head over night, and the next day I bought it. That one changed me from a doubter to a full blown theist. Thanks for asking.

 

[JustGeorge]

This is mostly for JustGeorge, but also DS and Jedster. I'll start with kavadi, as it's kind of dramatic. Kavadi (google it) is an ancient Tamil practice that was outlawed by the British in India, but was sustained in the sugar diaspora by those who left India to countries where it wasn't banned, mainly Malaysia, Mauritius, and Fiji. In those places it took on a new momentum of it's very own.

I first heard about it in 1984, on a spiritual retreat in Mauritius with my Guru. I was immediately fascinated by the stories of devotees, and watched as others in the group had their Abrahamic reactions. So 30 years later when we returned to the small island, I was finally able to participate, although in a small way, compared to my local friends there. A close friend guided me. I had 4 piercings done, one through the cheek, both sides, and 2 smaller ones on the temples. Then we paraded for about a mile to a small Murugan temple.

There are at least 3 spiritual reasons for kavadi, and a couple not so spiritual. Kavadi is always done for Murugan, although that might be disputed, as some could do it for Amman. One is to appease guilt from misdeeds, like volunteering to take on the karma. Another is to prepay, or 'clear the way' when intuitive feelings have a sense of dread, or a round of your karma hitting you where it hurts. A third is a 'thank you' for prayers answered. So if a prayer for somebody to get healthy, for good results on exams, etc., and individual can show their sincerity to Murugan. For me personally, it was reason 1, but also 2. The 'false' reasons are to show how tough you are, or on dares. That was never the intent, but it remains a reason in some places for some people. There is also the reason that it's just what we do on this particular festival, with no real reason.

Since 2014, I've done it here twice, and was the only one in our temple each time, at Thai Pusam. Lots or people carrying milk pots, but me being only person getting pierced. It was challenging to find a piercer, but eventually I went into a western counterculture, and found a willing person. First time was 6 limes across my chest (hooks are inserted, and limes are hung on them.) and the cheeks and temples. The second time, just 2 weeks back, was 2 limes on the back, temples, cheeks, and tongue.

The amazing thing about kavadi is that it just feels so darn good after. There is some kind of euphoric causing hormone released, I'm not sure of those details.

There we go. AMA (Please no judging, or I will be out.)

Can kavadi be done at any point, or does one specifically have to wait for Thai Pusam?

You mention having to go to a "western counterculture" to find a piercer; I assume you mean some kind of a tattoo shop. Does this mean any kind of piercing would suffice for these events, or must they be in specific places?

I've read from some that the joy was so great it was a painless experience. Would you say that's true?

 

[Vinayaka]

Can kavadi be done at any point, or does one specifically have to wait for Thai Pusam?

You mention having to go to a "western counterculture" to find a piercer; I assume you mean some kind of a tattoo shop. Does this mean any kind of piercing would suffice for these events, or must they be in specific places?

I've read from some that the joy was so great it was a painless experience. Would you say that's true?

Thanks. Kavadi can be done by anyone at any time, individually, or in groups. In Toronto, and in Montreal, for example, it is done at summertime annual festivals. But like any penance, it's on the devotee. My piercer also does suspensions. She is the only medically approved suspension piercer in the province. I feel very safe with her. This time she had an apprentice, (male) so that will be useful if we need to work around the menstrual custom. She can pierce pretty much anywhere, and knows a ton about 'soft spots' and the like. The back was particular tough, she said I have tough skin back there.

Not painless, but the euphoria was higher than the pain. So 'pleasure' beat 'pain'.

 

[JustGeorge]

Can you tell me some of the ways Saiva Hinduism differs from Advaita Vedanta(which tends to be more known in the West)?

 

[Vinayaka]

Can you tell me some of the ways Saiva Hinduism differs from Advaita Vedanta(which tends to be more known in the West)?

Firstly, we're clearly theists. We worship Shiva, and go 'all in' on it. This weekend, at Sivaratri, for example, there will be massive celebrations everywhere Saivism, and Saiva Siddhanta is practiced. Siddhanta is roughly translated as 'religion' and is the path to God. In Vedanta, it's almost entirely a description of the end goal, and less about how to get there. This, in my view, has caused an intellectualisation of it in the modern world. All of the great Vedantins like Ramana Maharshi, Sri Ramakrishna, and others were ardent worshipers simultaneously, but especially before they reached those Vedantic conclusions. Their realisations weren't intellectual, but mystical, from meditation, or from intense bhakti.
Yes, my Guru (Sivaya Subramuniyaswami) taught theism. He differed from Vedantic teachers in that way. Although He himself realised God on His own, He also saw that the Vedantins weren't offering a clear path to that. Saivism offers the path, with moral codes, colour, temple worship. and a whole lot of fun for those who get into it. Vedanta can be rather dry ... nothing but meditation, and sometimes before the student is really ready. So it's like viewing everything from the mountaintop perspective, but usually from an intellectual perspective, versus not being so intellectual, and just doing stuff. For example, I value making garlands over reading more books. Temple worship is key, absolutely, in Tamil Saivism. The monks I know worship ardently, but also meditate ardently. It's a combination of both - monism, and theism.

 

[JustGeorge]

Firstly, we're clearly theists. We worship Shiva, and go 'all in' on it. This weekend, at Sivaratri, for example, there will be massive celebrations everywhere Saivism, and Saiva Siddhanta is practiced. Siddhanta is roughly translated as 'religion' and is the path to God. In Vedanta, it's almost entirely a description of the end goal, and less about how to get there. This, in my view, has caused an intellectualisation of it in the modern world. All of the great Vedantins like Ramana Maharshi, Sri Ramakrishna, and others were ardent worshipers simultaneously, but especially before they reached those Vedantic conclusions. Their realisations weren't intellectual, but mystical, from meditation, or from intense bhakti.
Yes, my Guru (Sivaya Subramuniyaswami) taught theism. He differed from Vedantic teachers in that way. Although He himself realised God on His own, He also saw that the Vedantins weren't offering a clear path to that. Saivism offers the path, with moral codes, colour, temple worship. and a whole lot of fun for those who get into it. Vedanta can be rather dry ... nothing but meditation, and sometimes before the student is really ready. So it's like viewing everything from the mountaintop perspective, but usually from an intellectual perspective, versus not being so intellectual, and just doing stuff. For example, I value making garlands over reading more books. Temple worship is key, absolutely, in Tamil Saivism. The monks I know worship ardently, but also meditate ardently. It's a combination of both - monism, and theism.

What are some of the ways you and your temple will observe Shivaratri?

 

[Vinayaka]

What are some of the ways you and your temple will observe Shivaratri?

I personally won't go until about 10PM, although it opens at 6:30. There is a homa at 11, and midnight puja, and we'll probably come home around 2 or so, perhaps dropping in on another temple on the way. Before m that, we're making flower malas. We did a trial run with an Indian store with marigolds. Yesterday I picked up a 15 by 20 by 8 styro-foam box crammed with marigolds. We washed them and stuck them in the fridge. Between that and the regular 24 bunches of mini-carns, we'll probably get 30 to 40 feet of malas, and decorations. We hang the marigolds in strings of 6 or 7 along strings between the pillars and at the doorway. I'm going over Friday night after the temple closes to decorate. Tomorrow we'll start the malas, and the marigolds will add to all the choice re colour. That's always creative fun. A close friend from out of town (2 hours) is staying with us. She is a member of SSC as well and in tune with us.

The temple will be incredibly busy from 7 until 10 or so. It usually gets too nuts for me with all the lack of understanding of the strict rules at our temple. People trying to take pictures, bringing home food, and talking all the time. This is a strict Sri Lankan style temple. I always feel so sorry for the 'enforcers'. But by 10 it'll be reduced to the serious practitioners only crowd.

You?

 

[Vinayaka]

FYI ... other topics I'm familiar with ... the starting, building, and maintenance (running) of a Hindu temple. (I was the first temple president here, not by choice, a long story)
- trials and tribulations of a long time western adoptive
- pilgrimaging to India
- teaching secular humanism as a Hindu
- hillbilly farming
- landscaping in colder climates
- the island of Kauai from a Canadian perspective
- Hindu temples across America, and their variance

 

[JustGeorge]

I personally won't go until about 10PM, although it opens at 6:30. There is a homa at 11, and midnight puja, and we'll probably come home around 2 or so, perhaps dropping in on another temple on the way. Before m that, we're making flower malas. We did a trial run with an Indian store with marigolds. Yesterday I picked up a 15 by 20 by 8 styro-foam box crammed with marigolds. We washed them and stuck them in the fridge. Between that and the regular 24 bunches of mini-carns, we'll probably get 30 to 40 feet of malas, and decorations. We hang the marigolds in strings of 6 or 7 along strings between the pillars and at the doorway. I'm going over Friday night after the temple closes to decorate. Tomorrow we'll start the malas, and the marigolds will add to all the choice re colour. That's always creative fun. A close friend from out of town (2 hours) is staying with us. She is a member of SSC as well and in tune with us.

The temple will be incredibly busy from 7 until 10 or so. It usually gets too nuts for me with all the lack of understanding of the strict rules at our temple. People trying to take pictures, bringing home food, and talking all the time. This is a strict Sri Lankan style temple. I always feel so sorry for the 'enforcers'. But by 10 it'll be reduced to the serious practitioners only crowd.

You?

That sounds like a great time! You talk often about making garlands. Last spring, I tried to plant some marigolds so I could be a big copycat, but they just didn't grow. I only got a couple before the plants died.

What I'd like to do:

Rededicate the completed puja room, which has been under construction for several months. Its so close... just a bit more painting, hanging, putting stuff where it belongs... I'm not sure if the timing is realistic, though. I'll be content with a puja anywhere in the house(in disarray from all the stuff from the puja room being scattered).

FYI ... other topics I'm familiar with ... the starting, building, and maintenance (running) of a Hindu temple. (I was the first temple president here, not by choice, a long story)
- trials and tribulations of a long time western adoptive
- pilgrimaging to India
- teaching secular humanism as a Hindu
- hillbilly farming
- landscaping in colder climates
- the island of Kauai from a Canadian perspective
- Hindu temples across America, and their variance

I just needed you in another thread. I was asked about the significance of the 'pyramids' on my temple(5 tiers being what the poster noted).


What is the significance?

 

[Vinayaka]

That sounds like a great time! You talk often about making garlands. Last spring, I tried to plant some marigolds so I could be a big copycat, but they just didn't grow. I only got a couple before the plants died.

What I'd like to do:

Rededicate the completed puja room, which has been under construction for several months. Its so close... just a bit more painting, hanging, putting stuff where it belongs... I'm not sure if the timing is realistic, though. I'll be content with a puja anywhere in the house(in disarray from all the stuff from the puja room being scattered).





I just needed you in another thread. I was asked about the significance of the 'pyramids' on my temple(5 tiers being what the poster noted).

View attachment 71733
What is the significance?

Not sure whether you mean the vimana or the gopuram. The vimana is the one that is square, and situated directly above the main moolasthanam in a South Indian style temple. The gopuram is the main gateway, or gateways. The tall gopurams like the one in the picture was there so people could see it from a distance, and the ornate decorative stuff arose as sort of an artistic competition. I'm not authoritative by any means, but the gateway indicates an 'inside/outside barrier. Walking through the gopuram means you enter sacred space, as opposed to the more mundane space of the 'outside'. As for details, it's all in the Saiva Agamas, measurements, etc. The entire temple is rectangular as are the gopurams, but the vimana is square. In the north of India, vimanas are often round.

I though you could have grown marigolds there easily. Here, the most common mistake is overwatering. Some people think that id the surface of the soil is dry, so is the ground beneath, and that if leaves start to turn brown, they're too dry. Bid mistake. They like heat and a good complete watering once a week.

 

[JustGeorge]

Not sure whether you mean the vimana or the gopuram. The vimana is the one that is square, and situated directly above the main moolasthanam in a South Indian style temple. The gopuram is the main gateway, or gateways. The tall gopurams like the one in the picture was there so people could see it from a distance, and the ornate decorative stuff arose as sort of an artistic competition. I'm not authoritative by any means, but the gateway indicates an 'inside/outside barrier. Walking through the gopuram means you enter sacred space, as opposed to the more mundane space of the 'outside'. As for details, it's all in the Saiva Agamas, measurements, etc. The entire temple is rectangular as are the gopurams, but the vimana is square. In the north of India, vimanas are often round.

I though you could have grown marigolds there easily. Here, the most common mistake is overwatering. Some people think that id the surface of the soil is dry, so is the ground beneath, and that if leaves start to turn brown, they're too dry. Bid mistake. They like heat and a good complete watering once a week.

Ah! Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. Its the gopuram that was asked about.

You really can feel that 'inside/outside' barrier. I didn't use the main door for quite awhile(most use the side door, as that's nearest the shoe racks), and the first time I did was quite a difference.

Its the vimana, then, that was damaged and removed at that temple(with hopes to rebuild).

How does your temple manage to avoid damage due to winter weather?

I bet the marigolds were overwatered. My husband also threw mulch over them(he's like a child with candy when it comes to mulch).

How did you come to be your temple's first president?

 

[Vinayaka]

Ah! Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. Its the gopuram that was asked about.

You really can feel that 'inside/outside' barrier. I didn't use the main door for quite awhile(most use the side door, as that's nearest the shoe racks), and the first time I did was quite a difference.

Its the vimana, then, that was damaged and removed at that temple(with hopes to rebuild).

How does your temple manage to avoid damage due to winter weather?

I bet the marigolds were overwatered. My husband also threw mulch over them(he's like a child with candy when it comes to mulch).

How did you come to be your temple's first president?

Indeed, that inside/outside is a real thing. Did you know it is traditional to step across the barrier right foot first. In many temples, there is actually a physical barrier consisting of a single raised (3 inches or so) stone 'wall' that you do have to step over. That makes it more dramatic. The construction at out temple is also that fake stone concrete mix. We hope it lasts 12 years, as shastras forbid doing anything serious outside a kumbhabhishekham. Ours comes up again in 2025, so repairs can be done then. So far so good, although they have had ongoing water leaking problems. One of the challenges in maintenance for new temples is that there is little money when they construct it so there is a tendency to go cheap, which leads to challenges down the road, just as in any construction. The paint is peeling on the vimanan but that will be repaired. We don't yet have a gopuram.

By constitution, the board is elected from the membership, without officers, and at the first meeting after elections the board decides on who is going to do what. So at that very first meeting after the constitution was done, and the society founded and approved by government, the 11 or us had to decide on officers. The first decision was to pick the president. The temporary chair asked for any volunteers, and nobody volunteered. It went No, No No, around the circle about 2 and a half times. The third time it came to me, I reluctantly said 'okay' as it looked like we could go on all night as many of the previous constitutional meetings did. I served 2 years or so before Gurudeva asked his devotees to withdraw from direct service due to the karmic repercussions and attachments. His goal was to get the ball rolling to the point it couldn't stop.

I never mulch marigolds. They do well usually. You have to try again.

 

[JustGeorge]

Indeed, that inside/outside is a real thing. Did you know it is traditional to step across the barrier right foot first. In many temples, there is actually a physical barrier consisting of a single raised (3 inches or so) stone 'wall' that you do have to step over. That makes it more dramatic. The construction at out temple is also that fake stone concrete mix. We hope it lasts 12 years, as shastras forbid doing anything serious outside a kumbhabhishekham. Ours comes up again in 2025, so repairs can be done then. So far so good, although they have had ongoing water leaking problems. One of the challenges in maintenance for new temples is that there is little money when they construct it so there is a tendency to go cheap, which leads to challenges down the road, just as in any construction. The paint is peeling on the vimanan but that will be repaired. We don't yet have a gopuram.

I didn't know there was timing for such things. That makes more sense why things seem to take so long...

There is land bought and plans for a temple to be constructed about 45 minutes from here, but its been years and no action(Covid was a setback). Timing makes more sense on why.

Has some of the leaking been from winter issues?

By constitution, the board is elected from the membership, without officers, and at the first meeting after elections the board decides on who is going to do what. So at that very first meeting after the constitution was done, and the society founded and approved by government, the 11 or us had to decide on officers. The first decision was to pick the president. The temporary chair asked for any volunteers, and nobody volunteered. It went No, No No, around the circle about 2 and a half times. The third time it came to me, I reluctantly said 'okay' as it looked like we could go on all night as many of the previous constitutional meetings did. I served 2 years or so before Gurudeva asked his devotees to withdraw from direct service due to the karmic repercussions and attachments. His goal was to get the ball rolling to the point it couldn't stop.

That's awesome that you volunteered, even if it wasn't a job you were hoping for.

I never mulch marigolds. They do well usually. You have to try again.

I'll plant them where he can't see them.

Normally, he's much, much better with gardening than I am. But mulch is not an option with him(its a requirement).

 

[Vinayaka]

I didn't know there was timing for such things. That makes more sense why things seem to take so long...

There is land bought and plans for a temple to be constructed about 45 minutes from here, but its been years and no action(Covid was a setback). Timing makes more sense on why.

Has some of the leaking been from winter issues?



That's awesome that you volunteered, even if it wasn't a job you were hoping for.



I'll plant them where he can't see them.

Normally, he's much, much better with gardening than I am. But mulch is not an option with him(its a requirement).

The leaking is from poor construction at the beginning, I think, but I'm not sure. The constant freeze/melt cycles can't help either. Good luck with the marigolds. I've ordered a ton for here, about 300 plants.

 

[ajay0]

I have been to Subrahmanya temples but have never done any piercings myself. I do admire the rare Hindus who do it though. I consider the hooks and skewers as a metaphor for the Vel, an ancient spear which the god Subrahmanya received to vanquish the three demons.

So I consider the piercings to be a symbolic metaphor of understanding and vanquishing the demons of vices within through austerities and spiritual exercises and replacing them with virtues instead. Fasting, mantra chanting (of Panchakshari Mantra), identifying vices and replacing them with virtues, meditation are the spiritual exercises I usually do.

I do like the concept of Kavadi, which is to take upon physical and mental hardships for gaining greater physical and mental strength. And this motivates me to take upon physical challenges associated with rigorous service, long distance pilgrimages to ancient temples, overcoming physical obstacles and others , within my capabilities.

Would you say that your interest and devotion to Subrahmanya stems from a past life !