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Featured Am I Wrong To Think That There Is A God, But Not Operating In This World

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Lionel Refson, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Genesis 9:6 reads to me as Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man.

    Remember this is the voice of God, not a prophet, not a messiah, this is God. In the beginning of all the Abrahamic holy books God makes a statement . For me it states that even the worst possible crime, that of murder is to be dealt with by human hands.
    God said this to Noah and his sons, ie the whole of humanity, which for me is also very symbolic
    I also believe that God does not err, nor contradict God, because God is Perfect, all-knowing and all seeing, far into our future

    The implications of this and other verses of genesis 9, (for me the essential part of The Bible) are many imo

    1/ No one ever died at the hands of God, That includes Egyptians, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and everyone else
    2/ There is no eternal punishment or Hell for those that committ the worst of crimes, though there is an accounting
    3/ God therefore would never have extolled anyone to kill in God's name especially when one considers that God blessed us all to be fruitful and multiply through Noah and his sons, the whole of humanity and also promised never again to destroy us "for everlasting generations" (and do not make the error of saying that was by water!)
    4/ God does not operate on this Earth. God has left us to it
    5/ All Abrahamic religions are therefore misleading ie we are all alone on this world and will return to God when we die
    6/ Because God made no religious decrees in Genesis 9 when God spoke to all humanity for all time through all of our ancestors, the Abrahamic religions are mere human inventions. the exception was we should not eat the blood of live animals

    But the key thing for me is the firm belief that God spoke once only because as God would be aware of our future and the decisions we would make God would have said other things to Noah such as "Here are my 10 Commandments", teach them to your grandchildren and so on.
    I have measured every verse in the texts against this idea of God as perfection, all knowing and seeing and every thing after Gen 9:19 for me is divisive human made babble. I am unable to find this perfect God after Gen 9:19


    I also believe we were given complete freewill by God via the serpent and if you add this lot all together, this is how I arrive at my belief. Tell me why my thinking is wrong. I would appreciate it . No IPUs please
     
    #1 Lionel Refson, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  2. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Maybe you should try not believing so many things.
     
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  3. 80s fashion girl

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    You're not wrong to believe whatever you want, as long as it's not forced down someone's throat.
     
    #3 80s fashion girl, Jun 25, 2019
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  4. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    I just want to point out to all the Christians on the forum that it was a theist who proposed we ban their religion.
     
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  5. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    There is no way to know. So, why not choose you beliefs based on effectiveness, as opposed to knowledge that you can never have?

    Just sayin'.
     
  6. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    How can you say 'remember this is the word of God' then follow it with 'God does not operate on this Earth. God has left us to it'?
     
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  7. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    My experience with Christianity is that it is highly divisive, and totally incoherent. It is often cherry picked, and the morally reprehensible parts are rationalized away. It seems to me that people make way better of it than it actually is.

    At the heart of Christianity is a battle with powerful spiritual forces of evil.

    I know believers who subscribe to the judgment that non believers will be condemned to an eternal hell.

    My question is: isnt it far better to explore reality on one's own than to imbibe words of a book as the chief source of answers to every existential question?

    I am noneso a believer in Christianity, but being raised on it, the thoughts of that book occupied way too much of my mind, effort, and time. I would have been better served if i had spent time with more reliable sources of knowledge.

    Garbage in , Garbage out! One pays a price for spending way too much time on something that is not even reality to begin with. And something that prohibits self reasoning, and freedom to decide for one's self what is evident and proof worthy can not be a good thing.

    I am of the conviction that The Bible wants to extinguish freedom of one's own mind. Every thought is to be brought under subjection to this book from the believer's perspective.

    But I must say, what on earth satisfies good conscience in that book? Are we really supposed to accept that every non believing loved one of ours who dies is burning in the eternal flames of hell?

    Balderdash!
     
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  8. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

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    I think it might be because you read things our context. Genesis 9 is the basically the primitive law of Moses, and the main topic is the rules about blood and killing.

    4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
    5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each human being, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of another human being.

    6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans shall their blood be shed;
    for in the image of God
    has God made mankind.

    So God is basically doing an eye for an eye law, as highlighted in 5) so you are correct that God commands that if you kill another human, he will demand that you account for it.

    1/ No one ever died at the hands of God, That includes Egyptians, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and everyone else
    Not sure how you reach that conclusion?

    2/ There is no eternal punishment or Hell for those that committ the worst of crimes, though there is an accounting
    This depend on how you understand the bible, for instance if you read this story from Luke 16:

    19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day.
    20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores
    21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

    22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.
    23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
    24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

    25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
    26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’


    3/ God therefore would never have extolled anyone to kill in God's name especially when one considers that God blessed us all to be fruitful and multiply through Noah and his sons, the whole of humanity and also promised never again to destroy us "for everlasting generations" (and do not make the error of saying that was by water!)
    God command lots of people to be killed in his name. So not really sure how you reach that conclusion?

    4/ God does not operate on this Earth. God has left us to it
    This depend which part of the bible you read and how you understand the bible. God made the flood, he also ordered things to be build for him, he spoke a lot with Moses. If you believe in trinity he work through Jesus etc.

    5/ All Abrahamic religions are therefore misleading ie we are all alone on this world and will return to God when we die
    Not according to the bible, otherwise there would be no reason to pray.

    6/ Because God made no religious decrees in Genesis 9 when God spoke to all humanity for all time through all of our ancestors, the Abrahamic religions are mere human inventions. the exception was we should not eat the blood of live animals
    Not really sure how you come to that conclusion, how do you know that Genesis 9 didn't get it wrong either, and God in fact got enough when he flooded the world and left for good. And Noa just lied as he was lucky to survive and then started to make things up?
     
  9. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I was looking for a question mark in the OP. Seeing none, I do not have anything constructive to offer. I will watch the thread to see if it is enlightening.

    Thank you,
     
  10. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    "Garbage in , Garbage out! One pays a price for spending way too much time on something that is not even reality to begin with."

    Is the problem with the text or the reader if the text?

    The text itself is not a map of the territory, its tge experience of the territory.

    Since you want to talk about realit its about as far as the nearest wilderness hiking trail. Its actually closer than that but one has to start somewhere. You Dont need science, religion, philosphy, words or anything, just a willingness to both step out and in doing so you may get lucky and realize you really were stepping in ar the same time. .

    That is a a john muir paraphrase. Someone whos writing is incredibly dependent upon the bible not as a map, but as tonalty in his writings expressing his experience in the territory that is all around us as well as within us. Church certainly does not have that correct.
     
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  11. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    I'm much more privy for aliens than a god.
     
  12. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Delusion is a pitfall, especially when being raised on it by your parents. Its hard to break away from something that is forcefully disciplined into you as a child growing up. Religion has a social structure, and its hard to just break it off.

    I never felt more free and inspired as when i was on vacation from my family and rafted the Colorado, and Snake Rivers.
     
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  13. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    It is remotely possible some entity does exist, but I doubt humans are in communication with it. I am of the opinion all the gods, in which humans believe, are created by them.
     
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  14. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    left us to it ......Absolutely!!

    Your conclusion is completely incorrect imo
    I prefer to use the hebrew original ( more or less) as well version for obvious reasons
    5 But your blood, of your souls, I will demand [an account]; from the hand of every beast I will demand it, and from the hand of man, from the hand of each man, his brother, I will demand the soul of man. הוְאַ֨ךְ אֶת־דִּמְכֶ֤ם לְנַפְשֹֽׁתֵיכֶם֙ אֶדְר֔שׁ מִיַּ֥ד כָּל־חַיָּ֖ה אֶדְרְשֶׁ֑נּוּ וּמִיַּ֣ד הָֽאָדָ֗ם מִיַּד֙ אִ֣ישׁ אָחִ֔יו אֶדְר֖שׁ אֶת־נֶ֥פֶשׁ הָֽאָדָֽם:
    6 Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God He made man.

    The conclusion can not be an eye for an eye but rather I will demand a reckoning for all souls and... Whoever sheds the blood of man through man shall his blood be shed (again my emphasis) This is NOt the primitive law of Moses, this is the word of God
    .

    Because God made it clear that even murderers, never mind adulterers were to be dealt with by human hands, see above . It is a logical extension

    Who's Luke? not God. God made no mention of punishment nor hell when he spoke to the sons of Noah. Note the covenant is for everlasting generations, It is no great stretch to therefore imagine the blessing too was for everlasting generations. The accounting/reckoning we face is not hell, but far more like faced by Adam and Eve and Cain.........mild punishment and forgiveness!

    if you believe that then you believe that God contradicted what God said in genesis 9 and that is absurd. A covenant that lasts for everlasting generations, that includeds a blessing and gen 9:5 9:6 etc when added together means that God killed no human, never has except the corrupted offspring of angels and men.......the nephilim

    After The Blessing and promise God left us to it. The clues are in the explanations I gave above. Even murderers are to be dealt with by human hands ie so too are rapists, blasphemers, thieves, liars, false prophets etc etc

    How do we truly know anything. i do know that my view makes a lot more sense and is a lot less divisive and harmful than that of the abrahamic religions

    It is important imo to note what God did not say to Noah ie no worship, no customs, no dogma, no threats of hell, nor rewards nor punishments etc

    can i also add that Muslims believe also in the Old testament, the part that they believe the Jews did not alter for their own gain ie Genesis, though they have their own similar version

    nb IMO Matthew 18:2-5 are very important verses because Jesus is telling you how to find God in the Bible
    Read it like a child, with naivety and not intellect
     
    #14 Lionel Refson, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  15. Nimos

    Nimos Active Member

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    Ok get the feeling that the only truth is that of Noah. So who wrote the story of Noah and his encounter with God?
     
  16. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Ancient hebrew scribes whose ancestors came from Sumer
     
  17. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    Rubbish,, According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed to writing following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat.

    Common knowledge
     
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  18. Lionel Refson

    Lionel Refson Member
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    Not rubbish, just lazy innacuracy, so apologies. Iif you prefer , the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed to writing following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat. The origins of the chain can be traced back to ancestors of the hebrews who came from Sumer
    make no mistake, the oral tradition was very careful to preserve the original
     
    #18 Lionel Refson, Jun 26, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
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  19. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Love that. You got more about god in a raft than all that time sitting in a pew. "muir said " i would rather go to the mountains and contemplate God, than go to church and contemplate the mountains." church today is profoundly unhealthy.
     
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  20. Wandering Monk

    Wandering Monk Well-Known Member

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    That would make you a theist. Next stop: Agnostic
     
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