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Featured Am I saved if I have a different biblical interpretation of the oneness of God?

Discussion in 'Religions Q&A' started by Andrew Reil, Feb 12, 2021.

  1. Tzephanyahu

    Tzephanyahu Member

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    Hello,

    It's a fair question to ask. However, can I first ask you why you chose to be part of the Latter-Day Saints specifically?

    From reading what you wrote, you seem to be more liberally minded than someone who I would expect to identify with that denomination. Did the simple term "Christian" not feel right in comparison? Just interested :)

    Peace
     
  2. cataway

    cataway Well-Known Member

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    jw עדי יהווה
    what would you be saved from ? do you know?
     
  3. Saint Frankenstein

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    Because Mormon theology about God places them far outside of orthodox Christianity. It's hard to say they're the same religion with all the huge differences between traditional Christianity and Mormonism.

    That said, you should expect such a reaction. After all, the LDS church teaches that all other Christian groups are apostate and, presumably, on the road to damnation. Either way, if you truly believe your faith is true, it shouldn't bother you so much what others say.
     
  4. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't like to pronounce judgement on anyone even if their doctrine is completely wrong Biblically imo.
    I don't know if God is as finicky as us humans about such things.
     
  5. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know,,,,,,,,,,,, how many?
     
  6. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Yes and Jesus is Yahweh along with His Father (Phil 2:9). That is how ONE they are.
    Jesus is the ruler of creation (Rev 3:14) He is the one God appointed as His firstborn, higher than the Kings of the earth. (Ps 89:27)
    All power in heaven and on earth has been given to Him. (Matt 28)
    Jesus is the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
     
  7. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    Then...
    What a convoluted mess trinitarians make of the Bible. No reasonable logic observed, just contradictions.

    If Jesus was the Almighty, he wouldn’t need all power in Heaven and on Earth to be given” to him....
    He would have already had it!


    If he was the Almighty, he would have known the “day and hour” of the coming judgment . — Matthew 24:36.

    If Jesus was the Almighty, he wouldn’t have objected to being called ‘good’, rather, he said there is only one who is. — Luke 18:19

    If Jesus was the Almighty, he would have known truths to speak, not be “taught” them.. Luke 8:28

    If Jesus was the Almighty, he would have no need to pray by himself. — Luke 6:12-13.

    If Jesus was the Almighty, he wouldn’t have prayed, “not my will be done, but yours.” — Luke 22:42

    If Jesus was the Almighty, nothing could have killed him.

    If Jesus was the Almighty, he wouldn’t have been referred to by Christians as God’s “holy servant.”- Acts of the Apostles 4:24-30 (It’s obvious from these verses, that, even after his resurrection, first-century Christians did not worship Jesus. Whom did they pray to? Jesus’ God and Father’, — (John 20:17)

    If Jesus was the Almighty, his statement at John 5:30 would make no sense: “By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.”
    ...And on and on and on....

    How sad! It’s good to give honor both to Jesus and his Father, Yahweh (two distinct & separate Personages). But worship belongs solely to Yahweh / Jehovah (Exodus 20:1-3); otherwise, you are breaking that commandment!

    Not to mention that such a doctrine makes the Bible seem nonsensical.
     
    #227 Hockeycowboy, Mar 26, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
  8. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    You’re just not thinking fourth dimensionally.
     
  9. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    I did read all of your post and I don't want to argue with Christians or you either, but it may help a tiny bit if I offer the info that a considerable quantity of Christian churches, denominations and Creeds don't believe that 'all the other Christian Churches' are saved either!

    Only they are saved :) ...... so if you want to discuss that you will need to get in the first of many many queues leading to many different churches to talk about this. :D

    Me? I'm toast, Andrew, frazzled toast...... because I'm a Deist, so if any of you are right I've had it. But then, I think everybody has had it (their life) as well. :p
     
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  10. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    The simple answer is that the Christian denominations you mention generally agree about the nature of God the Father and Jesus whereas Mormon theology is completely contradictory about the godhead.

    It’s like cookies. The Christian denominations are all making chocolate chip cookies. Some use butter. Some use shortening. The ratios might be somewhat different. Some use big chocolate chunks while others use small chips, but at the end of the day they all are make something recognizable as a chocolate chip cookie.

    Mormons, on the other hand, make oatmeal raisin cookies but want to call them chocolate chip cookies. They are both cookies. They have similarities. But an oatmeal raisin cookie will never be a chocolate chip cookie.
     
  11. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    I don’t find that requirement in Scripture...only to have a sound mind, and to be reasonable.
     
  12. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    You know what? That is friendly! You discern genuineness in others, and then your concern comes thru! I admire that about you!

    I’m glad you’re my cousin!
     
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  13. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Wow! Thank you for your kind words.
    Honestly, I wish that I was more than a cousin to you, I do.
    But I cannot be. It can't be, HC.
    But I do appreciate what we do have.
     
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  14. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying Jesus has not got all power now?
    Then......Jesus is Almight and Jesus is Almighty God with the name Yahweh.
    The human Jesus with the nature of a servant (which He had to take because He did not have that nature before becoming a man) and being still a man was given ALL power. This power already belonged to Him since Jesus said that everything the Father has belongs to Him, the Son. (John 16:15) Jesus did not take what rightfully belonged to Him but was obedient and waited to be given it, as the Son. (see Phil 2:6,7)
    Do you say that Almighty God is going to come? Are you waiting for that? I am. The Alpha and Omega, the Almighty God is coming.
    Rev 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
    and “every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him”;
    and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
    So shall it be! Amen.
    8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    Zech 12:10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

    No contradictions, just reading in context.



    It belonged to Him already as shown above. Your answer does not make sense when we look at what Jesus said about all that the Father has (John 16:15) and when we realise that Jesus had just been a powerless man when He said that the power had been given to Him, and still is a man.

    Again, as a man on earth Jesus relied on the Father for all things, including the knowledge of when He would return.
    Even the JWs do not know that and never have when we consider the track record of their interpretations of prophecy while being guided by God as the only channel of truth to the world in these days.
    Why do you quote Matt 24:36 when it really says that nobody knows when He is coming back? Even Jesus said that He will come when we do not expect. (Matt 24:44) Why bother trying to work out when He will come with statements like that in the Bible?

    Jesus did not object to being called "good". He asked why and then said only God is good.
    That is sort of a declaration to US that He IS God,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,because we know that He IS good.



    I don't know what Luke 8:28 has to do with it, try John 8:28. Jesus came as a servant and to do the will of Him who sent Him. He is the prophet of Deut 18:18. A prophets speaks as directed from God by His Spirit.
    I don't think Jesus had to be "taught" as in a classroom, but He came to do the will of Him who sent Him.


    Context, context is everything in the passages you give. What you quote is like me or an atheist quoting God as saying to go and kill certain people, but ignoring the context of the quote and who God is.
    Jesus the man on earth came to live as a man and still be the sinless sacrifice. His prayers to His Father who became His God in His mothers womb (Ps 22:10) are just appropriate for Him.

    Jesus as a man did not want to die and so prayed that if it was possible to take it away from Him. Jesus as a man wanted to lust and lie His way out of situations and etc etc but He did not do that because ultimately He is good and even through temptation He submits to the will of God who is not tempted to turn aside to what pleases His carnal desires. Becoming a man brought temptations but this particular one, the desire to preserve His life was one that He submitted to the will of His God, as He did with any other temptation.
    Why twist the scriptures when the plain meaning is, well, plain?

    You JWs have a warped idea of death. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that death means the extinction of the person. Nowhere in scripture does it teach that we do not have a spirit that survives death. In fact the existence of this spirit is plain in the scriptures and that is ignored by the Watchtower and those under it's spell. You know Matt 10:28 I presume. Do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
    In JW teaching death means the killing of the soul.
    "Alive in the memory of God?" What kind of double talk is that to deny the plain meaning of this passage and others.

    He IS God's Holy Servant. He became that servant and is Holy. He is the Holy One of Israel.
    Acts 9:13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”
    1Cor 1:2To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
    The early Christians prayed to Jesus. The term "call on the name of" is from the OT and carries all the meaning in the NT that it did in the OT.
    And why would they not pray to their Lord and their God? (John 20:28)
    We call on the name the Lord to be saved. Jesus is the Lord and Jesus is Yahweh. "Jesus" is the only name given by which we are to be saved. (Acts 4:12)

    And on and on with texts misunderstood and used out of context.
    John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
    Jesus judges according to the will of God. He is a man and was when also when He spoke and spoke and acted in accordance with the will of the one who sent Him. He also will do that at the judgement when He comes to judge us all.

    Jesus accepted worship from people but angels refused it. I guess it was fine to worship Jesus. He did not stop the apostles from doing that when He calmed the storm. He did not say "Don't do that, I'm just a servant of God" as the angel said to John in Revelation.

    On the contrary, it pieces together what is in the Bible and makes it coherent even if you seem to think you should be able to fully comprehend God before accepting what is written about Him.
     
  15. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    First off, thanks for pointing out my mistake.
    Jesus is no longer flesh....he was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.” 1 Peter 3:18
    He was only “given” all authority, after he died faithfully.
    Now he “dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.” - 1 Timothy 6:15-16
    The Greek word is “proskyneo”...
    G4352 - proskyneō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
    ...which is used in the LXX to describe Abraham ‘bowing down’ to the sons of Heth. Obviously Abraham was not worshiping them!

    Your punctuation is telling, capitalizing “Him” and not the “one.”
    The person “sent” is greater to you than the One who sent him?

    It’s really amazing to me: that so many support a doctrine (and its many variations) that was devised by an organization that, despite their claims, dishonors Christ by being willing to kill their brothers for worldly reasons, a world that we’re not supposed to be a part “of.”
    Their entire system is therefore suspect.

    Can’t you see that?

    I’m curious, do you believe the Hellfire doctrine?

    Like you said: we’ll all be judged.
     
  16. ToGodorNottoGod

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    The question of the OP is very interesting. Is your salvation dependent on a very limited human understanding of another human's limited understanding and interpretation? I have serious doubts about that. In my opinion, there is no reason to worry about what anyone else says about who is saved and who isn't, since it is entirely, 100% personal for you to grasp. There is only one judge, namely, Jesus himself. If HE says you are saved, then hot dang! No one else has any say in the matter in any possible way., To even worry about it is not worth your time. Live your life, be happy, be good, do well, and stay in tune........
     
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  17. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Andrew Reil said-" I want to understand why Christians do not think I'm saved."

    What does one mean from the word "saved", please?
    God-Jesus ( as per the concept of Pauline-Christians) was a helpless god:
    1. as God-Jesus could not save himself from circumcision when a part of his body flesh/skin was cut off
    2. God-Jesus could not save himself from death (as per the concept of Pauline-Christians) when he was put on the Cross*
    3. God-Jesus was afraid of the Jews and Romans and met secretly when he came out of the tomb
    4. God-Jesus could not ascend to sky from Golgotha before the eyes of the Jews to whom he had promised to show a sign
    I for one get that a helpless God-Jesus who could not save himself, cannot save any Pauline-Christians whatever their denomination, please. Right?

    Regards
    ______________
    * I don't believe that Jesus died a cursed death on Cross, please
     
  18. Saint Frankenstein

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    There's a simple explanation for that - it's because Christ has two natures - Divine and human. He is humanity's High Priest and part of His mission was to be an example to humanity. During His ministry on earth, He came here to teach and to die and be resurrected. The Son's role is not the same as the Father's, and the Son most certainly seeks to please the Father and do His will. However, He did make statements pointing to Him being God such as "before Abraham was, I AM" which almost got Him stoned has His Jewish audience recognized right away what He was saying, and also Thomas proclaiming Him "my Lord and my God!" after touching His wounds.

    Also, why wouldn't Jesus pray to commune with His Father? After all, they're not the same Persons.
     
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Andrew Reil said ^, " I want to understand why Christians do not think I'm saved."

    One's above sentence suggests that one does not consider one a Christians while I understand that LDS people officially consider themselves as Christians. Right?

    Regards
     
  20. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    Andrew Reil wrote,"they (other Christians) believe Joseph Smith was an evil deceiver"

    My understanding is that Paul and Joseph Smith both are at the same level*, they both claim that they had been appointed apostle/prophet/messenger by Jesus not by G-d/Jehovah, nevertheless they both had the same destiny as mentioned in Deuteronomy of false prophets:
    Deuteronomy 18:20
    20 But the prophet who intentionally speaks a word in My name, which I did not command him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
    https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9982/jewish/Chapter-18.htm
    Right?

    Regards
    _______________
    *"If Paul was a prophet, Joseph Smith was also a prophet. The evidences that support Paul’s prophetic calling also support that of Joseph Smith."
    Parallel Prophets: Paul and Joseph Smith
     
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