Am I feminine enough?

[SomeRandom]

Recently I think I've been questioning some things in life.
What it means to be feminine in both my cultures. Where I fit into the spectrum and how that has affected the way I see things.

I've been growing bored and tired of the whole "Feminist vs Antis, MRAs whoever the hell" scene.
It seems more rooted in hyperbolic American politics and I'm not even interested in my own country's politics. (I mean, I vote for the Pirate Party and the Party Party simply cos they sound cool.)

So what attracted me to that "scene" in the first place? Well I suppose I used to watch Thunderf00t in High School because his science videos were interesting and accessible. Even his series attacking creationists taught me a lot of Biology.
But really, I think it was because I found the "new brand" of Feminist critics confusing and sometimes frustrating. They didn't seem to speak to my concerns. But did my own feelings of inadequate femininity cause me to lash out at them? Or was I frustrated at what I perceived as "ungrateful?"

Don't get me wrong, my own family accept me for who I am and I do what I want. But that's not to say there's not the expectations of both my cultures as a female weighing upon me.
According to Western ideas, I am kind of acceptably tom boyish. I wear "guy" clothes, often with a bit of a geeky inclination and no one really cares.
According to my own background I am too Western and even somewhat masculine. According to the ideals of the sexes and gossiping disapproving old aunties, I am not nearly feminine enough. I am not particularly academically inclined right now, so already I fail. I don't even like to wear the Salwar (pants and top) let alone a sari. I don't wear make up, I hang out "inappropriately" with boys and at the ripe old age of 20 something, I'm shockingly not even engaged to anyone (oh the scandal!)
Yeah, been politely declining proposals for prospective suitors since I was about 16/17. Yay! Tradition!

Western Ideals were always easier for me to navigate around. Yeah you got some judgment from some people, sure. But it always seemed subtle enough for me to laugh off.
Eastern Ideals I can laugh off as outdated most of the time. Mainly because I'm often with other Westerners, so there's far more of my girlfriends who do and think like I do.
But when I venture into the "Eastern" community, even among my fellow Westernized friends, it's harder to ignore that I am not as "feminine" as they are. Or that I am not as great a daughter or woman as I should be.

To my young mind, the battle cry of "Modern" Feminists seemed a bit..........whiny. Like as in a "how do they not know how great they have it?" kind of way.

Well that was my random angsty ramble. Do with that what you will.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm a man, but I have heard sentiments like these before and point out you aren't alone. I am a feminist, because I think its important to maintain legal equality. I guess you could say I am a 'Legal-equality-feminist', which is the simplest and most basic kind of feminist. My thought is that without male-female legal equality, society slides backwards into barbarism. It may not immediately feel that way to you who are dealing with what seem like mosquitoes of criticism. That is how I see the big picture. You feel that you are pressured to be a particular person, to wear certain clothes or to accept marriages. You face approvals, disapprovals, judgments about being too masculine etc. I sympathize in my own way, but the big picture is that feminism is about you sticking up for the next generation -- so that they aren't having to deal with these issues as much.

These issues will likely persist, however. They will re-assert themselves, because men and women have physical and emotional differences and there will always be a tendency for one to dominate. There will always be a need to assert that women and men should both receive equal education and equal rights, but it only takes one or two generations for that to be forgotten. In one or two generations all the girls will start hearing the argument that they don't need to be educated, 'because they must have babies.' They don't need equal rights, because they can be chaperoned or 'They are weak and need protection', or 'They are seductive and cannot be trusted'. In one or two generations, all feminist thought can be squelched so that women accept the argument that they must not go out alone, must not work, must not take jobs. So you are dealing with a long-term human and a chronic issue, not just a local issue or just a temporary issue. It doesn't matter if you live in Switzerland, USA or what. Without proactive vigilance, society will revert. There must be conscious effort on the part of women and mothers to stave off ignorance on this subject.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Don't worry, enjoy your life, take life as it comes. Perhaps one day you may find someone who becomes special in your life. I have a niece who is very academic, a Ph.D. in Biochemistry at the age of 28 or so (as I remember) and single, taking care of a chemical enterprise away from home. Another who is very boyish, 24 or so, a Master's in Philosophy (I do not know what prompted her to take up Philosophy even after I tried to interest her in Sociology or Social Work, which has better job prospects here). Presently, she is interested in Photography. Whatever suits these young ladies and whenever they decide for other things.

 

[DawudTalut]

.........
Western Ideals were always easier for me to navigate around. Yeah you got some judgment from some people, sure. But it always seemed subtle enough for me to laugh off.
Eastern Ideals I can laugh off as outdated most of the time. Mainly because I'm often with other Westerners, so there's far more of my girlfriends who do and think like I do.
But when I venture into the "Eastern" community, even among my fellow Westernized friends, it's harder to ignore that I am not as "feminine" as they are. Or that I am not as great a daughter or woman as I should be.

To my young mind, the battle cry of "Modern" Feminists seemed a bit..........whiny. Like as in a "how do they not know how great they have it?" kind of way.

Well that was my random angsty ramble. Do with that what you will.

Peace be on you.
Respectfully, you sound like child of immigrant parents.
The ideals you laugh, are not the ones which gave you kind caring parents?
IMO you can get goodness of West and East....Once family valued were strong in West too.

 

[Father Heathen]

An aspect of feminism is being independent and individualistic, and resisting social pressure to comply with arbitrary cultural norms.


.

 

[Father Heathen]

The ideals you laugh, are not the ones which gave you kind caring parents?

Blind adherence to customs isn't what makes people loving and caring.

IMO you can get goodness of West and East....Once family valued were strong in West too.

They still are, and if anything they're stronger. Children are encouraged to define themselves and forge their own paths.

 

[DawudTalut]

Blind adherence to customs isn't what makes people loving and caring.



They still are, and if anything they're stronger. Children are encouraged to define themselves and forge their own paths.

Such hate!
Reason?
Answer was to OP, where you came in from friend?
Anyways, You are welcome, how are you doing?
Do you think all people in East blindly follows? In which part of West family ties are still strong as they used to be? Children and elderly need more attention in West IMo. East need to get more education.

 

[Father Heathen]

Such hate!

What hate?

Answer was to OP, where you came in from friend?

It's an open thread and I simply wanted to interject.

Anyways, You are welcome, how are you doing?

I am well, and you?

Do you think all people in East blindly follows?

No.

In which part of West family ties are still strong as they used to be?

In which part are they not?

Children and elderly need more attention in West IMo.

Elaborate.

East need to get more education.

Everyone everywhere does.

 

[Demonslayer]

Here's my take SomeRandom. Women have come a long way in the last 50 years...don't fall backwards by trying to fit some "feminine" role that likely doesn't even matter anymore.

My wife is a bit of a tom boy. You have to force her to wear make up for things like weddings and special occasions. She's a jeans and t-shirt kind of girl. She loves to hike and do mud races like the tough mudder, getting down and dirty with all the boys. Not that this is uncommon these days, you go to events like this and every year there are more and more bright, beautiful, strong, independent women who don't give a hoot if they appear feminine or not.

My wife and I have been crossfitting for 5 years and last year she joined an Olympic-style weightlifting gym. She's 5'2", 105lbs and 45 years old, and she out there throwing up 100lbs in the clean and jerk. It's a man's thing, right? Wrong. I've never seen her look as beautiful as she does when she nails a heavy lift and walks off the platform with a huge smile on her face. She's strong, she's awesome, who cares if she's not in a sundress with strawberries on it?

Throw away all of your notions of femininity. Be who you want to be and damn what others think of you.

 

[SomeRandom]

Peace be on you.
Respectfully, you sound like child of immigrant parents.
The ideals you laugh, are not the ones which gave you kind caring parents?
IMO you can get goodness of West and East....Once family valued were strong in West too.

Yes I'm a child of immigrants

Well, my Ma isn't exactly "traditional" nor does even she accept all Eastern values. But yes, it often does seem like parents and elders are not as respected in the West. And my ideas of family are more Eastern than Western I suppose. But in taking the best of both worlds one is inevitably going to reject some values on both sides

 

[SomeRandom]

Here's my take SomeRandom. Women have come a long way in the last 50 years...don't fall backwards by trying to fit some "feminine" role that likely doesn't even matter anymore.

My wife is a bit of a tom boy. You have to force her to wear make up for things like weddings and special occasions. She's a jeans and t-shirt kind of girl. She loves to hike and do mud races like the tough mudder, getting down and dirty with all the boys. Not that this is uncommon these days, you go to events like this and every year there are more and more bright, beautiful, strong, independent women who don't give a hoot if they appear feminine or not.

My wife and I have been crossfitting for 5 years and last year she joined an Olympic-style weightlifting gym. She's 5'2", 105lbs and 45 years old, and she out there throwing up 100lbs in the clean and jerk. It's a man's thing, right? Wrong. I've never seen her look as beautiful as she does when she nails a heavy lift and walks off the platform with a huge smile on her face. She's strong, she's awesome, who cares if she's not in a sundress with strawberries on it?

Throw away all of your notions of femininity. Be who you want to be and damn what others think of you.

That's all well and good to say. And I'd be the first to agree on principle alone.

But therein lies my confusion. You say don't fall "backwards" into a feminine role. But what that essentially tells me is that women who are traditionally feminine (in either society) are to some extent seen as backwards. Like that it's some sort of regression. I'm sure you didn't intend it to be interpreted that way. That's my bad. But fight it as I may, the Eastern ideals of femininity are part of my identity as well.
It's a bit hard to explain I guess. Most of my angst comes from not really having a very solid foundation. I'm Western, but I'm Eastern. I'm either too white or too dark. It kind of leaves me a bit torn sometimes.

So that leads me to ask, can we be a bit too eager in "progressing" to the point where we try to mould women into our ideals unintentionally?

 

[SomeRandom]

Don't worry, enjoy your life, take life as it comes. Perhaps one day you may find someone who becomes special in your life. I have a niece who is very academic, a Ph.D. in Biochemistry at the age of 28 or so (as I remember) and single, taking care of a chemical enterprise away from home. Another who is very boyish, 24 or so, a Master's in Philosophy (I do not know what prompted her to take up Philosophy even after I tried to interest her in Sociology or Social Work, which has better job prospects here). Presently, she is interested in Photography. Whatever suits these young ladies and whenever they decide for other things.

Thanks uncle!

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey, I accept you for who you are

 

[Tomyris]

That's all well and good to say. And I'd be the first to agree on principle alone.

But therein lies my confusion. You say don't fall "backwards" into a feminine role. But what that essentially tells me is that women who are traditionally feminine (in either society) are to some extent seen as backwards. Like that it's some sort of regression. I'm sure you didn't intend it to be interpreted that way. That's my bad. But fight it as I may, the Eastern ideals of femininity are part of my identity as well.
It's a bit hard to explain I guess. Most of my angst comes from not really having a very solid foundation. I'm Western, but I'm Eastern. I'm either too white or too dark. It kind of leaves me a bit torn sometimes.

So that leads me to ask, can we be a bit too eager in "progressing" to the point where we try to mould women into our ideals unintentionally?

I think you are seeing quite clearly the tension in modern feminism, which wants women to be just like men. Basically the core of that issue is that it creates an inherent value judgement, that women's work, women's values, women's language, are all... Inferior. Women should dress the way men want them, should "lean in" and be assertive, should demand raises, should not cry in public, should not be interested in homemaking... Implicit in all of this is the idea that the women's sphere is less valuable than the male sphere, that women should adapt to the business world by becoming more like men, and that women should alter how they emotionally interact, and how they speak, and how they pursue social relations, to become more like men.

So why are men's values so much better that they should be emulated? Well, that is the Patriarchy engineering consent. Women's values, the traditional women's values of many cultures, the traditional modes of female presentation and interaction, have equal value. That is the radical proposition of the "conservative feminist": A demand that society compromise between the women's sphere and the men's sphere. That instead of women changing to succeed at working in capitalism, that capitalism changes to allow women to work successfully in their chosen careers while still being women. That politics change from the exclusively male created representative democracy of the 19th century to a form of politics inclusive of female modes of conversation and negotiation, including radical constitutional changes if necessary. I would say that in a traditional society, a woman still has her soul and her heart, but to gain the freedoms of the west, you to a great extent are pressured to give these up, even though you should not have to.

Industrial engineering does not require wearing pants and demanding raises from your boss and leaning forward in your chair at meetings with your legs splayed. Independently managing a household and a career does not require abandoning childrearing. And the freedom to marry who you please does not require dressing immodestly. Patriarchy has created a "package" which maintains a mental subjugation of women in the west while marketing it as freedom. It starts with the notion that to appreciate freedom and have the career and education and marriage you want that you must start acting like a man, because man's ways are better.