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Always surprised when an atheist says this:

LAGoff

Member
I've noticed a certain view of the cosmos in the atheists I've talked to. It goes something like: "The universe is so big, so who are we to think we matter?" Or: "I feel so small in this vast universe."

These thoughts are alien to me (a theist). I feel just the opposite.

So I wonder if this feeling is the basis for the atheist/theist mindset/divide? And therefore we can stop fighting each other and just understand each other (although I suppose the 'fight' would be on again if it could be shown that -- in the majority of cases -- the reason one feels one way or the other is because of early [childhood] religious [or lack of religious] education-- I had an early religious education).

Also, I'd to know if you have encountered similar views in the atheists (or theists) you've talked to?

Also, have you ever met an atheist who doesn't have the above feelings ('not mattering' and 'smallness in the vastness') and is still an atheist; and conversely, have you ever met a theist who feels these feelings and is still a theist.

Also, do you think these feelings of 'not mattering' and 'smallness in the vastness' applies to the majority of agnostics also?

PS. Yes, the vastness of the cosmos only CONTRIBUTES to my sense of a personal God (one who sees and knows and cares about me)... I can't say the same for my increasing awareness as I get older of the cruelty of the cosmos. That remains for me the one thing that allows me to have a fellow feeling with atheists/agnostics, but it couldn't drive me totally away from God because I would still always have that sense of a personal God... in fact, now that I think about it, the cruelty of the cosmos may even deepen my relationship with God
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I've noticed a certain view of the cosmos in the atheists I've talked to. It goes something like: "The universe is so big, so who are we to think we matter?" Or: "I feel so small in this vast universe."

These thoughts are alien to me (a theist). I feel just the opposite.

So I wonder if this feeling is the basis for the atheist/theist mindset/divide? And therefore we can stop fighting each other and just understand each other (although I suppose the 'fight' would be on again if it could be shown that -- in the majority of cases -- the reason one feels one way or the other is because of early [childhood] religious [or lack of religious] education-- I had an early religious education).

Also, I'd to know if you have encountered similar views in the atheists (or theists) you've talked to?

Also, have you ever met an atheist who doesn't have the above feelings ('not mattering' and 'smallness in the vastness') and is still an atheist; and conversely, have you ever met a theist who feels these feelings and is still a theist.

Also, do you think these feelings of 'not mattering' and 'smallness in the vastness' applies to the majority of agnostics also?

PS. Yes, the vastness of the cosmos only CONTRIBUTES to my sense of a personal God (one who sees and knows and cares about me)... I can't say the same for my increasing awareness as I get older of the cruelty of the cosmos. That remains for me the one thing that allows me to have a fellow feeling with atheists/agnostics, but it couldn't drive me totally away from God because I would still always have that sense of a personal God... in fact, now that I think about it, the cruelty of the cosmos may even deepen my relationship with God

If you meet me in person, you would have met one of them. Never heard atheist say that. Reading...
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
We are big in our own perspective world and certainly an aspect of the overall universe, however our "little blue speck" in the universe and our own humanity is not the central theme that a number of people think we are.

To think the universe was created for us is a completely preposterous notion to begin with.

I remember all the Voyager photos especially one where Carl Sagan pointed out as a tiny insignificant speck called Earth, this philosophical question hits home whenever it's viewed.

I can just imagine Voyager attempting to take a picture right now in interstellar space, I doubt it would even register.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
I think this arises from the theists view and I paraphrase "that we are special because god chose us". Atheists acknowledge that we are a small fairly insignificant planet on the edge of a galaxy in an unbelievably large universe.
So, why are we special in the overall scheme of things?
I'm not saying individually we are not special but when compared to the vastness of the universe we are nothing.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
It hasn't contributed to my agnosticism, but the sheer size of the universe makes me wonder what the purpose might be for any creator when much of it - stars, planets, and all the rest - just goes about its business with complete disregard for us humans. And it does make us look a teeny-weeny bit immaterial compared with what is out there. And religions that formed in the past didn't have a clue about all this.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
I've noticed a certain view of the cosmos in the atheists I've talked to. It goes something like: "The universe is so big, so who are we to think we matter?" Or: "I feel so small in this vast universe."
It not an uncommon observation and not exclusive to atheists either. I'm curious whether you're able to offer any logical counter to it beyond simply introducing a god to be that purpose. It could even be argued that the need to believe in a personal god who cares specifically about us is proof that this wider sense of insignificance exists in us all. We just each deal with it differently.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I've noticed a certain view of the cosmos in the atheists I've talked to. It goes something like: "

So I wonder if this feeling is the basis for the atheist/theist mindset/divide? And therefore we can stop fighting each other and just understand each other (although I suppose the 'fight' would be on again if it could be shown that -- in the majority of cases -- the reason one feels one way or the other is because of early [childhood] religious [or lack of religious] education-- I had an early religious education).

Also, I'd to know if you have encountered similar views in the atheists (or theists) you've talked to?

Also, have you ever met an atheist who doesn't have the above feelings ('not mattering' and 'smallness in the vastness') and is still an atheist; and conversely, have you ever met a theist who feels these feelings and is still a theist.

Also, do you think these feelings of 'not mattering' and 'smallness in the vastness' applies to the majority of agnostics also?

PS. Yes, the vastness of the cosmos only CONTRIBUTES to my sense of a personal God (one who sees and knows and cares about me)... I can't say the same for my increasing awareness as I get older of the cruelty of the cosmos. That remains for me the one thing that allows me to have a fellow feeling with atheists/agnostics, but it couldn't drive me totally away from God because I would still always have that sense of a personal God... in fact, now that I think about it, the cruelty of the cosmos may even deepen my relationship with God

The universe is so big, so who are we to think we matter?" Or: "I feel so small in this vast universe."


These thoughts are alien to me (a theist). I feel just the opposite.


You feel "why am I so big and the cosmos is so tiny? " ok what protestant/non-denominational church do You belong to.

Then again no one generally reflects, the cosmos is so old and I So young. Another type of scalular statement. Theists and atheists are both mutually guilty of that.
 
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LAGoff

Member
It not an uncommon observation and not exclusive to atheists either. I'm curious whether you're able to offer any logical counter to it beyond simply introducing a god to be that purpose. It could even be argued that the need to believe in a personal god who cares specifically about us is proof that this wider sense of insignificance exists in us all. We just each deal with it differently.

Does the 'coldness' (my words) of the cosmos contribute (drive me) to my feeling that there's a "personal god who cares specifically about us"?
I don't think so-- at least not in a meaningful way for me.
Back in my wild, carefree, Godless days, I remember my best friend (who is an atheist) casually dismissing theism with the statements I mentioned in the OP and my visceral reaction that "No! I can't hang with that view at all!"
Of course, the fact that I was in a religious school from first to sixth grade may have invalidated my reaction.
But who hasn't been tainted by any religious or anti-religious early upbringing/education? Let him speak here!
 

tayla

My dog's name is Tayla
Also, I'd to know if you have encountered similar views in the atheists (or theists) you've talked to?
I have never encountered this viewpoint. They all claim science proves their point, and their arguments are good.

What I notice is that they are blind to noticing that subjective consciousness is not strictly a part of physical matter, of the universe. They try to make it so by calling in an emergent property or an illusion of the brain. But they don't see that it is they, as the conscious observer, who is the scientist doing science.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I have never encountered this viewpoint. They all claim science proves their point, and their arguments are good.

What I notice is that they are blind to noticing that subjective consciousness is not strictly a part of physical matter, of the universe. They try to make it so by calling in an emergent property or an illusion of the brain. But they don't see that it is they, as the conscious observer, who is the scientist doing science.

Until you can demonstrate consciousness apart from any physical reality - our brains - I think many of us will stick with the default explanation. :rolleyes:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I have a possibly useful analogy....
To matter is like something tasting good.
Taste is a value conferred by the taster.
Without someone tasting, taste is inapplicable.


Not a good analogy?
Well, show me what you gots!
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Back in my wild, carefree, Godless days, I remember my best friend (who is an atheist) casually dismissing theism with the statements I mentioned in the OP and my visceral reaction that "No! I can't hang with that view at all!"
I'm not clear whether that reaction was "I don't believe it's true" or "I don't want to believe it's true". I note you didn't take up my challenge to logically challenge the idea without invoking the existence of a god. If you can't, it would imply your reaction was more about not liking the idea which actually supports the idea of your moving towards a theistic outlook to counter it.
 

LAGoff

Member
I'm not clear whether that reaction was "I don't believe it's true" or "I don't want to believe it's true". I note you didn't take up my challenge to logically challenge the idea without invoking the existence of a god. If you can't, it would imply your reaction was more about not liking the idea which actually supports the idea of your moving towards a theistic outlook to counter it.

Oh, sorry. Brain fart. I should have made clear that it's a completely embodied feeling that what he said is impossible, although I can't be 100 percent sure it's not a "belief" because I did have an early childhood indoctrination into religion and so I can't be 100 percent sure that my completely embodied feeling that there is a God (an overarching, intelligent, personal, organizing Force behind and in all) is not based on my early indoctrination into the Text/Stories of my religion. Does 'God' transcend religion? (Text/Stories) or is God just part of the Text/Stories?
Only an un-indoctrinated (and that means one indoctrinated into atheism when young would also be disqualified) person could tell us more, I think. But just Yuri Gagarin going up to space and seeing no God is not enough for me to become an atheist (and I hold that all the science and logic that atheists present to disabuse me of God is just more sophisticated versions of of Yuri Gagarin's observation).

As far as your second statement, I can't follow what you are saying (too abstract). Perhaps you can concretize it for me, if it's important enough for you to make it 'clear' (dumb it down?) to a block-head like me.
 

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Oh, sorry. Brain fart. I should have made clear that it's a completely embodied feeling that what he said is impossible...
The key question is why do you feel it's impossible. Can you rationally explain your position or is it literally just a feeling (or, to put it another way, faith)?
 

LAGoff

Member
The key question is why do you feel it's impossible. Can you rationally explain your position or is it literally just a feeling (or, to put it another way, faith)?

It feels like a feeling- a knowing, not a belief or faith. You may say that most people felt/knew that the world was flat and the sun went around the earth, but I mean it more in the sense of needs, like hunger, hornyness. Perhaps it would be closest to the need for freedom. One can be born a slave/subject and not feel the need to be free. In other words, it may be an inborn drive and a culture that promotes it ("America, Land of the Free").
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I've noticed a certain view of the cosmos in the atheists I've talked to. It goes something like: "The universe is so big, so who are we to think we matter?"
In terms of the universe - we don't. So what.

In terms as our lives on earth we matter just as much as anyone else.

Or: "I feel so small in this vast universe."
In terms of the universe, our entire galaxy is small. So what.


These thoughts are alien to me (a theist). I feel just the opposite.
If you believe your existence in the universe is any more important than the existence of the last ant you stepped on, your ego is playing tricks on you.

PS. Yes, the vastness of the cosmos only CONTRIBUTES to my sense of a personal God (one who sees and knows and cares about me)...
Oh goody. Your personal god makes you feel you have some importance in the vastness of the universe.
 

ArtieE

Well-Known Member
It feels like a feeling- a knowing, not a belief or faith. You may say that most people felt/knew that the world was flat and the sun went around the earth, but I mean it more in the sense of needs, like hunger, hornyness. Perhaps it would be closest to the need for freedom. One can be born a slave/subject and not feel the need to be free. In other words, it may be an inborn drive and a culture that promotes it ("America, Land of the Free").
Interesting article. The Origins of Religion: How Supernatural Beliefs Evolved
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
I've noticed a certain view of the cosmos in the atheists I've talked to. It goes something like: "The universe is so big, so who are we to think we matter?" Or: "I feel so small in this vast universe."

These thoughts are alien to me (a theist). I feel just the opposite.

So I wonder if this feeling is the basis for the atheist/theist mindset/divide? And therefore we can stop fighting each other and just understand each other (although I suppose the 'fight' would be on again if it could be shown that -- in the majority of cases -- the reason one feels one way or the other is because of early [childhood] religious [or lack of religious] education-- I had an early religious education).

Also, I'd to know if you have encountered similar views in the atheists (or theists) you've talked to?

Also, have you ever met an atheist who doesn't have the above feelings ('not mattering' and 'smallness in the vastness') and is still an atheist; and conversely, have you ever met a theist who feels these feelings and is still a theist.

Also, do you think these feelings of 'not mattering' and 'smallness in the vastness' applies to the majority of agnostics also?

PS. Yes, the vastness of the cosmos only CONTRIBUTES to my sense of a personal God (one who sees and knows and cares about me)... I can't say the same for my increasing awareness as I get older of the cruelty of the cosmos. That remains for me the one thing that allows me to have a fellow feeling with atheists/agnostics, but it couldn't drive me totally away from God because I would still always have that sense of a personal God... in fact, now that I think about it, the cruelty of the cosmos may even deepen my relationship with God

I think it is opposite of the view that many theists seem to have that because they are created in the image of God, that they are the most important thing in the Universe. The Atheist will say we are no more important than any other being that might exist, and this attitude is seen as being unimportant to the theist who would likely perceive alien life not created in Gods image to be inferior to human life.
 
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