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Featured All's fair in love and proselytizing

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by siti, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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  2. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    So you don't have a valid source. Congratulations!! According to your standards the Bible proves there is no God. You do not know who he was specifically referring to. That is a quote out of context, you need to supply what led up to that outburst. You do realize that there are Christians that deserve ridicule, or do you support Westboro Baptist Church's demonstrations at funerals?
     
  3. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Exodus 21:20-21 states that they are only to be punished if the slave dies immediately. But, if the slave lives for one or two days after the beating before dying from the beating, then the master isn't to be punished because the loss of the slave labor was punishment enough (this is the "he is his money" part).

    Here it is for you to read, plain as day:

    You need to learn what your Bible says. This is the reality. The above is in the book. Just own up to it and stop trying to defend to horrific prescriptions it contains. The Bible says this, and if it is supposedly inspired by God then God inspired this. Get it right. Stop pretending it doesn't say this. You do your creed no service at all by continuing to spread untruths that other people already know to be untrue.
     
  4. Mestemia

    Mestemia Advocatus Diaboli
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    All of that to completely ignore the question?

    Why the need to mark the person if there was only the one form of slavery?
     
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  5. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I think it is a good thing to ask questions concerning various issues in the Bible or anything when one is sincere. But that is not what you are doing. As I said before, I think you are illiterate concerning the how to read the Bible, as well as understanding ancient cultures and their practices and not because you lack intelligence, but deliberately. I say this because all you seem to be interested in doing is taking verses out of context to attack the scriptures and God. So maybe you are not even open or willing to reason.

    When the verse(s) about slavery are read with an understanding of the ancient cultural practices of that time and in the light the entirety of the scriptures with God's perspective concerning human life, there is no way it can be legitimately claimed that the Bible or the God of the Bible condones slavery. On the contrary, the scriptures condemn slave trade as punishable by death.



     
  6. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    You are the one deliberately misconstruing. No question.

    The Bible states specifically that YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BEAT YOUR SLAVES TO DEATH WITHOUT PUNISHMENT, as long as they survive the beating for a couple of days. That's what it says.

    Go ahead... try and tell me it doesn't say this. Tell me that this isn't a prescription for "the law."

    The ultimate point is, if the slavery of the time included beatings TO DEATH of slaves at all, then slavery was not something "nice" or just "indentured servitude" in all cases, like you would like to pretend. It was harsh, and the punishment only existing for the slaves who immediately died necessarily means that beatings were condoned. That beatings were even the norm. Beatings happened all the time - therefore they had to spell out that when the slave died from those beatings, that's when a master would be in trouble. "Oh... but don't worry if they only die after a couple days of living through the pain... we know that's how you make your money, so you shouldn't be punished. Losing the slave for a couple days was punishment enough, am I right?"

    This is a horribly immoral and unloving attitude to have toward other human beings. And even more horrible to promote or prescribe it as treatment that should be allowed "under the law."

    You have no excuse for this that will make it "go away." The Bible is clear. It is YOUR head that isn't.
     
  7. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    In this video, this "Dr. Brown" cites scripture that positively supports his position, but ignores and doesn't even cover the scripture that contradicts his position.

    Two major things I saw in there:

    1. That a master who slapped his slave and made him lose teeth would then have to release the slave. While The Bible does state this in Exodus 21:26-27, there is still the hurdle here where The Bible states that the master doesn't even have to be punished if the slave DIES as long as he lives a couple days before dying. That they have to mention this at all means that beatings were routine, and you only face punishment or having to free the slave if they suffer irreparable damage. Why couldn't The Bible state "Masters, don't beat your slaves." instead? Why this grey-area language?

    There is also more evidence that beatings were routine, that The Bible writers/God knew this, but still allowed slavery under the law in Luke 12: 47-48:

    47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
    48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.


    2. That slaves were to be released after 6 or 7 years. This is just a lie, because there is scripture to directly refute it easily (see the bit in red):

    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46)

    The only people who were supposed to be released from slavery at some point were slaves who were gathered from their own people. Meaning also that The Bible even describes that it was okay to enslave your own brethren - the "chosen people." Regardless, "Dr. Brown" is abjectly cherry-picking here... quoting the "6 or 7 years" release date which is prescribed for "people of Israel" ONLY. Not all slaves - though "Dr. Brown" would have liked us to think that was the case.



    I admit that the Bible does offer some passages that attempt to soften slavery, or to suggest that masters treat their slaves well/fairly. But there are none that I can find that actively denounce it. The two mentions I think come somewhat close are Timothy 1:10 where they mention that "slave traders" are among the immoral, and in Deutoronomy 23:15 where it is stated that a slave taking refuge should not be turned back over to the master. But The Bible never once calls slavery itself "immoral", and never once states that a slave owner is doing anything wrong in owning a slave - only that some of the more terrible things that can be done to a slave are immoral - oh, except beating them to within an inch of their life and letting them live in pain a couple of days before dying of their wounds- that's all perfectly acceptable. It constantly tells slaves to "obey their masters" - even if they are harsh (Peter 2:18).

    I honestly don't feel the need to watch the other video. I am sure it is just more of the same. Cherry-picking and comparing the slaves to happy, paid servants. It's shameful. You should be ashamed. The Bible makes its stance on slavery very clear - except that it is very much the wrong stance to take.
     
    #107 A Vestigial Mote, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  8. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    That is NOT what is says. The Bible does not say..."YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BEAT YOUR SLAVES TO DEATH WITHOUT PUNISHMENT". You are attempting to impose your bias upon the text.

    Let's start by reading more of the passage...

    12 “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.
    14 “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die.
    15 “And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
    16 “He who kidnaps a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, shall surely be put to death.
    17 “And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death.
    18 “If men contend with each other, and one strikes the other with a stone or with his fist, and he does not die but is confined to his bed,
    19 if he rises again and walks about outside with his staff, then he who struck him shall be acquitted. He shall only pay for the loss of his time, and shall provide for him to be thoroughly healed.
    20 And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be punished.
    21 Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be punished; for he is his property.
    22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
    23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,
    24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
    25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
    26 “If a man strikes the eye of his male or female servant, and destroys it, he shall let him go free for the sake of his eye.
    27 And if he knocks out the tooth of his male or female servant, he shall let him go free for the sake of his tooth. Exodus 21:12-26

    By your logic and the way you are reading the text, you would also have to say the Bible allows:

    -striking a person
    -killing someone with premeditation and treachery
    -striking one's mother and father
    -kidnapping and selling a person
    -cursing one's mother and father
    -fighting with each other using a stone or fist
    - hurting a pregnant woman when in a fight
    - striking the eye or tooth of a servant

    But that is NOT what these verses are saying. In the same way, verse (20) you refer to out of this passage does NOT say ... "YOU ARE ALLOWED TO BEAT YOUR SLAVES TO DEATH WITHOUT PUNISHMENT".
     
  9. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Long story short. Does the bible condone slavery?
     
  10. siti

    siti Well-Known Member

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    Of course it does - why would anyone expect a 2000-3000 year old book to condemn slavery when slavery was an accepted part of human culture until the last 2-3 centuries?

    But the discussion is precisely the kind of thing I had in mind in the OP. The claim that the Bible does not condone slavery is manifestly inaccurate. So knowing this, but believing that the Bible also contains timeless truth that is life-enhancing if not life-saving - is it permissible to gloss over - or even deliberately misrepresent - that part in order to attract people to the genuinely good bits?
     
  11. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    There is so much wrong behavior perpetuated in this fallen world by humans against other humans that are outside of God's perfect will or the Bible does not specifically address which you could also call "gray area", but I don't think actually are when the Bible is read in its entirety. The scriptures do lay out plain as can be that everyone is made in the image of God, everyone is to be treated kindly and as an equal. All the nations around Israel at the time the laws in Exodus were given, likely practiced brutal slavery. I don't think it is a matter of gray area language because God gave Israel specific laws and warnings to protect people in slave/servant positions and to warn masters to bring about change and create a nation which was different. In the NT, slavery was the norm in the Roman Empire so the accounts there contained reference to this cultural practice, yet it was made clear that believers in Christ were to treat each other, whatever their social status. as equal and one in the Lord.

    Below is an excerpt from an article which I thinks gives a pretty accurate insight, if you're interested...

    (5) In order to understand the Bible, we must recognize what is known as progressive revelation. This simply means that God does not always reveal his full and final will to us all at once, but instead he does so gradually, incrementally, over a long period of time. The content of God’s revealed will in a very real sense grows. It develops from early seed form into the full flower in the NT. So, we must be careful that we don’t pull a single verse out of its context and then assume that this is what God intended for all of human history.


    (6) When God did reveal himself and his will to his people, he often would accommodate his revelation to particular cultural and historical contexts. In other words, as Paul Copan explains,


    “Sinai legislation makes a number of moral improvements without completely overhauling ancient Near Eastern social structures and assumptions. God ‘works with’ Israel as he finds her. He meets his people where they are while seeking to show them a higher ideal in the context of ancient Near Eastern life. . . . [Thus] Given certain fixed assumptions in the ancient Near East, God didn’t impose legislation that Israel wasn’t ready for. He moved incrementally” (Is God a Moral Monster? 61).


    The Mosaic Law was designed to help God’s covenant people, Israel, live in the midst of a perverse and wicked world. God’s instruction to Israel was thus often adapted to this reality to enable them to survive amidst the pagan nations that surrounded them. Again, Copan is helpful:


    “God didn’t banish all fallen, flawed, ingrained social structures when Israel wasn’t ready to handle the ideals. Taking into account the actual, God encoded more feasible laws, though he directed his people toward moral improvement. He condescended by giving Israel a jumping-off place, pointing them to a better path. . . . In fact, Israel’s laws reveal dramatic moral improvements over the practices of the other ancient Near Eastern peoples. God’s act of incrementally ‘humanizing’ ancient Near Eastern structures for Israel meant diminished harshness and an elevated status of debt-servants, even if certain negative customs weren’t fully eliminated” (61).


    (7) This means that often times God’s revealed will served to regulate and restrain immoral behavior rather than immediately and instantaneously abolish it. God tolerated or permitted polygamy in Israel, but never endorsed it as the ideal toward which people should strive. God tolerated and permitted divorce for a variety of reasons in the OT, but did not endorse it. That is why when Jesus was asked about the grounds for divorce, he said: “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so” (Matt. 19:8).


    What this means is that Scripture is known to regulate undesirable relationships without condoning them as permanent ideals (see Matt. 19:8; 1 Cor. 6:1-8). Paul’s recommendation for how slaves and masters relate to each other does not assume the goodness of the institution.


    (8) We must also recognize the difference between what is described in Scripture and what is prescribed in Scripture. In other words, often times certain practices are simply described or portrayed as occurring without any suggestion that what is described is good. We must never think that everything recorded in Scripture is designed to tell us how to behave or how to believe. We read in the book of Job of the counsel of his friends, most of which was in error about the nature of God. Simply because the Spirit records for us in Scripture the beliefs of Job’s counselors does not mean we are to believe what they said about God. The author of the book simply describes their beliefs without endorsing them (see Job 42:7-8).

    10 Things You Should Know about Slavery in the Bible
     
  12. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    No.
     
  13. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    No where in the bible does it state it's ok to have slaves? I disagree.
     
  14. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Okay, you are free to disagree, but I don't think you are correct. Where does the Bible say it is ok?
     
  15. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Then tell me what these two lines, taken together mean (these are lines FROM YOUR POST, by the way):

    There are specific circumstances under which a person is allowed to beat their slaves to the point that they die. As long as they don't die until 2 or 3 days later. This is STILL The Bible instructing masters that they are able to beat their slaves to death and get away with it under these specific circumstances.

    That was my point - not that The Bible condones beating your slaves to death wholesale - and you even KNOW that wasn't my position because I acknowledge that there are other passages which condemn the behavior of beating another - and even of beating a slave UNDER CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. Which means there are also circumstances in which The Bible seems to feel it is perfectly fine to beat your slaves. Like when the beating doesn't result in the loss of a tooth or an eye.

    If you have to say "If a beating results in the slave's death, that's when you'll be punished." Then you are OBVIOUSLY expecting that masters will beat their slaves. Obviously. The implication is that if you beat them and they don't die, there is NO PUNISHMENT deserved. That behavior is fine. And further, if beating the slave until they lose an eye or tooth makes you lose the slave to freedom, then obviously the implication is that otherwise (if the slave does not lose a tooth or an eye) there will be NO PUNISHMENT deserved.

    This is all completely obvious. So obvious, in fact, that those who say try to say that slave beatings weren't sanctioned by The Bible are just plain liars.
     
    #115 A Vestigial Mote, Apr 12, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  16. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    So... where has God been for the last 2,000 years? Are we expected to believe that further revelation has been developed by the more modern day prophets and witnesses? Like Joseph Smith?

    And yet, he rains fire on Sodom and Gomorrah? He floods the entire world at one point? He brings the plagues to Egypt? Those were examples of God making a strong statement. Why soften up and let people beat one another to death? Again - remember, there is a specific set of circumstances under which a slave can be beaten to death and no punishment is expected. If the slave lives 2 or 3 days after the beating, The Bible states that there is no punishment required for a beating that ultimately leads to a slave's death under those circumstances.

    If this is how God operates... changing His message based on the people He's delivering it to, then God is weak. If you afford Him any sort of sovereignty AT ALL, then you must admit that He would never, ever have to budge an inch if He felt something was truly wrong or bad behavior. But obviously, according to The Bible, a slave owner who routinely beat his slaves to the point that they died after 2 or 3 days would STILL MAKE IT INTO HEAVEN. The activity of beating people senseless doesn't necessarily disqualify a person from entering heaven. And yet God makes up the rules for morality? Are you joking?!
     
  17. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Several places. It even tells you how to act. Here's one example.

    1 Peter 2:18

    New International Version;
    Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

    New Living Translation;
    You who are slaves must submit to your masters with all respect. Do what they tell you-not only if they are kind and reasonable, but even if they are cruel.

    King James Bible;
    Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
     
  18. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    I only have time to respond to this post at the moment, but not your subsequent one. I'll try to get back to that later.

    I am not saying there were no slaves beatings. The Bible itself reveals there were. I am saying that behavior is not sanctioned by the Bible. I was not disregarding that you acknowledged the passages where beating another is condemned. I was focusing on the point that you keep saying the Bible "allows" or teaches it is "perfectly fine" to beat a slave in certain circumstances. This is our point of disagreement. I do not see that the Bible allows this beating of another just because... the subject is spoken about in the scriptures. The Bible does not hide human sinfulness. What I see is that God knows humans do wicked things and practice wrong behaviors. He knew it then and knows it now, He knew some people of that time beat their slaves or servants and He addressed the issue...but speaking about it is not condoning such behavior, allowing it, or saying it is okay. Talking about it is not a stamp of approval.

    I think the point of the verse is to say clearly that the person who beats their slave/servant which results in death is to be punished because clearly this is wrong in violation of God's law against murder and to love one's neighbor as yourself. I believe the punishment for murder in the OT was death. But if the slave/servant lives then the master was not punished by death, but would have financial loss due to his own abuse of another who worked for him. Remember the slavery of Israel at the time was economic based, so this was a punishment brought upon the master by himself.

    Please view the video you did not watch earlier, especially starting from the 6:20 point to at least the 9:60 point, if you don't want to watch the whole thing...

     
  19. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    The scriptures often addressed the reality of the cultures at the time. During the time of the Roman Empire slavery was a part of the social economic system, it was not the same type of racial slavery which took place in the U.S, England. or other places where people were stolen from their countries and forced into slavery. The NT writers gave instruction on how Christians who were slave owners or slaves were to treat each other. This is does not endorse the practice of slavery itself. Neither were the early Christians in any position to attempt an overhaul of the Roman Empire's system.
     
  20. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't work like this for The Bible because the promise of admittance to heaven is also a part of your religion. Owning people and beating them does not disqualify you from the reward of heaven when the only things that are listed as punishable in the text of "the law" are beating them to immediate death, or beating them until they lose an eye or a tooth. And even then, the "eye or tooth" bit just makes you lose the slave, it isn't even condemned as "sin."

    There may be other passages of The Bible that tell you not to beat on people, and that it is a sin, sure. But when those people are slaves? What does it say then? It says a lot... and none of it says "don't beat them." In fact, it very much implies that beating them is anticipated, expected and therefore doesn't necessarily put you out of favor with God.

    Again... why couldn't God just have the text say "Masters, don't beat your slaves." at the very least? Instead, it tells you specifically how you can enslave people for life using various "tricks" or rituals - and then very strongly implies that beating them is okay under certain circumstances.

    And guess what? It doesn't matter how many times you say "that isn't what it says". It truly doesn't. Because there are plenty of people (myself included) who will always see it exactly as I am describing to you. And we'll go on telling other people about what it says, pointing it out to them, and trying to get them to see it our way. It is our right... just as it is the right of every believer to interpret the words of The Bible for themselves - which they do in countless ways, and to countless different ends. My interpretation is really no different, except that you don't like the negative light it casts your religion in. Well tough. Get used to it, because it isn't going away. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say you're only in for more of the same, and it will get tougher and tougher and tougher to apologize for and make excuses for the texts, and for God, and for all the ridiculous shenanigans of your fellow believers who you don't agree with.
     
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