All's fair in love and proselytizing

[InvestigateTruth]

People can read about that elsewhere and in DIRs. There is no need to proselytize that view. But if you feel you must, go ahead. Personally, I have no problem with you believing what you want to. I (and a few others) just don't agree with the beliefs.

It is like, many people say Karma is a wrong idea. This might be due to their own misunderstanding of Karma, or misrepresenting Karma. Do you think, it is inappropriate to open a thread to discuss Karma, and its correct understanding?
Why? Hmm, if they can go and read, then they wouldn't have misunderstanding and wrong views of it.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...Atheists do not try to inflict their lack of belief up in others so Christians are not threatened by them.

lol!!! --and you're sharing his proof of your superiority to me because...

 

[Subduction Zone]

lol!!! --and you're sharing his proof of your superiority to me because...

How is this a claim of superiority?

 

[Vinayaka]

It is like, many people say Karma is a wrong idea. This might be due to their own misunderstanding of Karma, or misrepresenting Karma. Do you think, it is inappropriate to open a thread to discuss Karma, and its correct understanding?
Why? Hmm, if they can go and read, then they wouldn't have misunderstanding and wrong views of it.

I wouldn't open a thread on karma. There is no need, as the internet, wikipedia, etc. already has great answers. If somebody asked me directly about my personal view of karma, sure I'd answer. There is little need to put the topic in a DIR as all Hindus know it already, it's so basic.

Besides all that, I don't view any understanding as 'correct' or not. There are different views. Hindus themselves differ on it. I don't see my view on any concept as correct. It's just my view. Of course, those folks in the "I'm right and you're wrong' mentality would differ on how they approach things, constantly feeling the need to 'correct' people. I just see it as offering an alternate view.

 

[siti]

Do you think, most atheists became atheist as a result of advertising atheism by other atheists, or they alone figured it out? If they had an effect on you to convert you from Christianity to Atheism, do you blame the atheists for proselytizing Atheism? If not, why do you have problem with other religious believers talking about their beliefs?

Who said I had a problem? And in any case, I'm not an atheist. The OP was a question for discussion - I think its going reasonably well so far...

And, also for the record, I don't know whether there are atheist proselytizers - maybe - but what I am talking about is not whether or not proselytizing is OK - personally I don't feel threatened or even negative about proselytizing (although I believe it is forbidden here for good reason). My question was not about that but about dishonestly representing one's beliefs in the course of proselytizing (or even more generally in religious discourse). To be equivalent to the examples I suggested, an atheist would have to say something like "well I do believe in God" without explaining that what they mean by "God" is a "a kind of cultural or traditional concept of a superior being that has absolutely no basis in or influence on the real world". Would that be OK? I dunno - but I've never heard an atheist say anything like it either.

 

[siti]

@siti There might be some people who do say that there's common ground without really believing it themselves, but I'm wondering if that's really what your question is about. I wonder if it's more about people fooling themselves into thinking that there's common ground when there isn't

You might be right there @Jim

 

[siti]

@siti I don't like the way I see Baha'is promoting the Baha'i Faith in Internet discussions sometimes. It does look dishonest and disrespectful to me sometimes, and sometimes against forum rules, but I think it's a mistake to call it "proselytizing." I don't think that any of them have any intention of trying to convince anyone in the forum to join the Baha'i Faith. They're responding to calls in their writings and from their institutions to "teach the Faith" and "deliver the message." To them that only means telling people about it, not trying to convince people to join. Of course they might be hoping that some people will join after they learn more about it, but I never see them pressuring people into joining, or even talking about it.

Hmmm! Perhaps. I'm not so sure though. Does a car salesman have to actually use the words "you should buy this car" before you recognize him as a car salesman?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I concur as to individuality, and I've learned a lot about Baha'i individuality here. I don't think all that many people make sweeping generalisations about a billion people, but I could be wrong. You're making a sweeping generalisation about people of your own faith in 'the true motive of Baha'is'. Most certainly I've found adherents of your faith to have differing motives.

You yourself have admitted several times to have been a victim of friendship evangelism, and insinuated from that that only the Baha'is would have helped you in your moment of need. Personally, I see that as more just coincidence, and suspect lots of people would have helped you, but for whatever reason, it didn't happen. Most social services here in Canada are governmental, or non-denominational.

Interestingly in my case, after my suicide attempts a friend where I worked said he had friends who would take me in as my mother was too distressed. They were Baha’is but never told me about the Faith not one word, so after about a month or so with them I returned to my home.

It was one day I met some people in my block of flats. My father liked them but they too never spoke of religion to anyone. One day I met them on the staircase and I said to them ‘you are good people but you definitely are not Christians because you don’t preach to me so do you have a religion? Then after I had openly asked them what their religion was they told me they were Baha’is. So my history was very clear that I had to ask.

But there are many who have become Baha’is who have complained ‘why did nobody tell me about this Faith earlier’? So it’s not that cut and dried. But mostly when people find out the real motive, the real essence off what this is all about a great change comes over them and they understand that at the time they opposed they were unaware of what Bahai is all about even after years of discussions. So there is something deeper than just the words which cannot be explained that is there to be found. But impossible to convey. The saying, ‘how many are the truths that the garment of words cannot contain’ applies here.

 

[Vinayaka]

But mostly when people find out the real motive, the real essence off what this is all about a great change comes over them and they understand that at the time they opposed they were teruky unaware of what Bahai is all about even after years of discussions. So there is something deeper than just the words which cannot be explained that is there to be found. But impossible to convey. The saying, ‘how many are the truths that the garment of words cannot contain’ applies here.

If you speak to ex-Baha'is, as I have, generally a lot was hidden at first, and once they find out some of the real motives, they quit, walk out the door fast. Obviously, experiences vary. The two most common examples ate homosexuality, and no women on the UHJ. My first real encounter at all was here on this forum, and what turned me off fairly quickly was the excessive proselytizing, the condescending non-listening attitudes, and misrepresentation of my faith. (By some, not all.) But sometimes 'some' is too much.

Maybe I told you this story before (way off topic, but) ... One time Dad and I stopped at a neighbour's place to make a phone call home as he though he'd forgotten to turn the pump off on the cattle well. A vicious looking German Shephard growled at the window. Dad rolled it down an asked the small child standing there, "Does that dog bite?" When the kid said, "Sometimes." we drove on. So 'sometimes can be too much.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you speak to ex-Baha'is, as I have, generally a lot was hidden at first, and once they find out some of the real motives, they quit, walk out the door fast. Obviously, experiences vary. The two most common examples ate homosexuality, and no women on the UHJ. My first real encounter at all was here on this forum, and what turned me off fairly quickly was the excessive proselytizing, the condescending non-listening attitudes, and misrepresentation of my faith. (By some, not all.) But sometimes 'some' is too much.

Maybe I told you this story before (way off topic, but) ... One time Dad and I stopped at a neighbour's place to make a phone call home as he though he'd forgotten to turn the pump off on the cattle well. A vicious looking German Shephard growled at the window. Dad rolled it down an asked the small child standing there, "Does that dog bite?" When the kid said, "Sometimes." we drove on. So 'sometimes can be too much.

With me one of the things Baha’is did hide was about donating money. I was 3 years a Baha’i when I had to ask what Baha’is did forvmoney becsuse no one had told me how to contribute. When I found out Baha’is are forbidden to ask or pressure for money from other Baha’is and cannot accept donations from those who are not members I was very impressed and very happy to give. Everything is so voluntary. There are times I gave a lot and long periods of non giving and no interference or pressure.

For me before I was a Baha’i it was always my belief in traditional marriage between a man and a woman.

Women on the House of Justice. I think it all comes back to faith and trust. We are told it will become clear in the future so then I trust it will just like I trust the sun will rise tomorrow.

 

[Vinayaka]

With me one of the things Baha’is did hide was about donating money. I was 3 years a Baha’i when I had to ask what Baha’is did forvmoney becsuse no one had told me how to contribute. When I found out Baha’is are forbidden to ask or pressure for money from other Baha’is and cannot accept donations from those who are not members I was very impressed and very happy to give. Everything is so voluntary. There are times I gave a lot and long periods of non giving and no interference or pressure.

For me before I was a Baha’i it was always my belief in traditional marriage between a man and a woman.

Women on the House of Justice. I think it all comes back to faith and trust. We are told it will become clear in the future so then I trust it will just like I trust the sun will rise tomorrow.

Experiences vary, yes. I'm happy it works so well for you.

 

[osgart]

Proof positive people shouldnt say anything at all.

Why dip into the pool of human realities and search for common grounds?

I love everybody i proselytize.

If i had it my way i would love for everybody to think for themselves, experience things first hand, and dont take everything as true from any medium but rather seek it out one's self if its that important.

By the way consensus involves peer pressure and livelihoods at stake. So i question its infallibility. Everybody should agree to disagree, and why not put yourself in other people's shoes. Knowledge is a lifetime commitment and wont happen by imbibing words on a page without some practice in a field of experience.

There is no immediate path to knowledge, but there is a world of self subjective experience to explore on one's own. Everybody has something important to say in the world of the subjective.

Everyone plants their seeds, and whether those seeds die or grow is squarely in your own hands. Nobody can convert anybody. Either you are open or closed to it, good or bad reasons. Proselytizing never bothered me unless its a high pressure brainwashing gig.

I really do think people of all religious beliefs have total sincerity in their beliefs, otherwise its a cult masquerading as a religion. And there is plenty of that also.

 

[InChrist]

Because we live in a world where the religious try to inflict their beliefs up on others.

Atheists do not try to inflict their lack of belief up in others so Christians are not threatened by them.

What world are you living in? I'm not saying they don't have the right to proselytize like anyone else, but atheists definitely do try to inflict their lack of belief upon others.

Atheist Philosopher Peter Boghossian’s Guide to Converting Believers
Eager to share the good news that there’s no god? Here’s the book that will teach you how to persuade unsuspecting believers that scientific rationalism is the one true faith.
Atheist Philosopher Peter Boghossian’s Guide to Converting Believers


Atheist Proselytizing
But just because not all atheists proselytize does not mean that some do not do so. Some atheists certainly do proselytize. I see atheists accosting religious believers on Twitter every day to argue with them, and the goal does sometimes appear to be talking them out of their beliefs. Some atheists write books filled with arguments designed to persuade religious believers that they are wrong or to give atheists tools for proselytizing (even though most of them do not perceive what they are doing as proselytizing). Some prominent atheists have stated in interviews that they see part of their role as talking religious believers out of their beliefs. And some atheists do act in a manner that is not terribly different from evangelical Christian street preachers.
Atheist Proselytizing | Atheist Revolution

 

[Subduction Zone]

What world are you living in? I'm not saying they don't have the right to proselytize like anyone else, but atheists definitely do try to inflict their lack of belief upon others.

Atheist Philosopher Peter Boghossian’s Guide to Converting Believers
Eager to share the good news that there’s no god? Here’s the book that will teach you how to persuade unsuspecting believers that scientific rationalism is the one true faith.
Atheist Philosopher Peter Boghossian’s Guide to Converting Believers


Atheist Proselytizing
But just because not all atheists proselytize does not mean that some do not do so. Some atheists certainly do proselytize. I see atheists accosting religious believers on Twitter every day to argue with them, and the goal does sometimes appear to be talking them out of their beliefs. Some atheists write books filled with arguments designed to persuade religious believers that they are wrong or to give atheists tools for proselytizing (even though most of them do not perceive what they are doing as proselytizing). Some prominent atheists have stated in interviews that they see part of their role as talking religious believers out of their beliefs. And some atheists do act in a manner that is not terribly different from evangelical Christian street preachers.
Atheist Proselytizing | Atheist Revolution

That is a rarity. There are some that proselytize, but they are a rather small minority. I have had Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door, but never atheists.

 

[siti]

LaVey put it best when he said to keep your opinions to yourself unless someone asks for them.

I don't remember asking him...

 

[siti]

That is a rarity. There are some that proselytize, but they are a rather small minority. I have had Jehovah's Witnesses knock on my door, but never atheists.

See! Those sneaky atheist proselytizers - they don't even knock to let you know they're there - but they obviously got to you anyway! Of all the low down sneaky tricks!

 

[Jim]

Despite what Baha'is want to call it, I personally consider it proselytizing. And I do think it's deceptive to call it anything but proselytizing.

I’m still not sure I know what @siti was asking about. If it’s why some people think it’s okay to lie, I don’t think that we’ll see any answers from anyone who really thinks that, but I’m not sure that’s really what siti meant. I thought maybe the real question was, “How can Baha’is who are doing what I call “proselytizing” think that they aren’t proselytizing?” I have some ideas about that, which I might post later.

Maybe the real question is “Why are Baha’is dishonest sometimes?” Again, I don’t think we’ll see any answers in this thread from people who actually think that they’re being dishonest. I’ll break that down into two questions. One is, why are people dishonest sometimes? Another is, why are some people who are dishonest sometimes, members of the Baha’i Faith? My answer is that being dishonest sometimes doesn’t always keep a person from applying for membership and being accepted, and we don’t police what our members do everywhere all the time. We don’t check to make sure a person is never dishonest, before we accept their application for membership.

 

[CG Didymus]

So how to get a "foot in the door" as it were? Well if you have been taught to evangelize, you probably know that "finding common ground" is a key to opening up a conversation. But what if there isn't any? Is it OK to pretend?

In a way, it's all pretending. It's becoming something you're not, to become a "friend" to a stranger... With the knowledge that you are trying to find a way to tell them about your religion.

It's like hitting on a pretty lady. Some people, not me, okay sometimes me, put on a façade and exaggerate or tell outright lies to get the woman to think you're an all right guy. When most of the time, some guys, okay most guys, but not me, okay me too, just want to get a little. It's like that with religious proselytizers too. The desired end is to get the person to see The Truth. So a few little lies, exaggerations, pretending to care about them, it's all part of the game. Some people seem to be very sincere, though. But, even with them, how far can they go truly caring and loving a person with a true spiritual kind of love? Then the other extreme, is those that just blurt out things like "God loves you" and hands them a Bible tract. What do they really care about that person?

 

[CG Didymus]

I’m still not sure I know what @siti was asking about. If it’s why some people think it’s okay to lie, I don’t think that we’ll see any answers from anyone who really thinks that, but I’m not sure that’s really what siti meant. I thought maybe the real question was, “How can Baha’is who are doing what I call “proselytizing” think that they aren’t proselytizing?” I have some ideas about that, which I might post later.

Maybe the real question is “Why are Baha’is dishonest sometimes?” Again, I don’t think we’ll see any answers in this thread from people who actually think that they’re being dishonest. I’ll break that down into two questions. One is, why are people dishonest sometimes? Another is, why are some people who are dishonest sometimes, members of the Baha’i Faith? My answer is that being dishonest sometimes doesn’t always keep a person from applying for membership and being accepted, and we don’t police what our members do everywhere all the time. We don’t check to make sure a person is never dishonest, before we accept their application for membership.

A Baha'i thinks they are being honest when they say that they believe in the Bible and that they believe in Jesus. But, compared to a Fundy Christian, they are not believing in the same things. So can a Baha'i be more open about what they really think of Jesus and the Bible? Like... that the Bible should not be taken literally. That Jesus is dead and buried and did not rise from the dead. They probably wouldn't get to far in the conversation with a Fundy Christian.

But, if the Baha'i kind of sugar coats it, then the Baha'i could get into a conversation with the Christian. But, that's the thing? How much "sugar" before it's a lie? But, you know what, never mind that, there is another bigger lie going on. How many religious people live their religion perfectly? None, so everybody is falling short of what their own religion expects of them, yet, they go tell other people how wonderful their religion is? I think probably both Baha'is and Christian have verses that talk about living the truth of their religion. But who does that? It's much easier to just talk about it.

Anyway Jim, you are a tremendously interesting person. Much, much deeper in thought and openness to your average Baha'i.

 

[Milton Platt]

OK - so you have a strong religious faith that you wholeheartedly believe would benefit everyone to know about...like Peter and John in the Book of Acts you simply "cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard" (Acts of the Apostles 4:20). You sincerely believe that "necessity is laid upon me" and "woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel" (1 Corinthians 9:16,17)...

So you have a life-enhancing message that you feel obligated to share. Only one problem - most people don't want to hear it. But surely that's because they don't know how precious a gift you have to share with them. So how to get a "foot in the door" as it were? Well if you have been taught to evangelize, you probably know that "finding common ground" is a key to opening up a conversation. But what if there isn't any? Is it OK to pretend?

Maybe Paul thought so - he did, after all, say that he was "made all things to all men" in order that he might "save some". (He never actually said he was "a Greek to the Greeks" as far as I know but that's the idea). (1 Corinthians 9:20-22).

Anyway, the question is - if common ground (in terms of beliefs) is not there, is it OK either to pretend it is or even to invent common ground - "become a Greek to the Greeks" as it were - in order to achieve the overriding goal of "saving" (at least some of) your audience?

E.g. when a JW is confronted with the question "are you saved?" by an evangelical Christian, should they just say "yes" when they know very well that what the evangelical means by "saved" is very different from what they believe. When a Baha'i is confronted with a question about whether they believe in Jesus as the Son of God, is it OK to just say "yes" when they know very well that what the questioner means by "Son of God" is very different from their own interpretation of that phrase...I suppose there are very many examples...

There's an old saying "all's fair in love and sales" (its also the title of a fairly recent book about successful selling) - but finding common ground is very definitely a tried and tested sales technique. Is that what it is when it is done in a religious discussion? Is the motivation for presenting "less than completely candid" information about one's religious beliefs the good of the hearer - or sales? Is it to "snatch a log from the fire" and "gain a brother" - as it were - or is it just to count another convert? And, either way, is it honest? Is it acceptable to be dishonest in presenting our religious beliefs? Is it "love" or merely another proselytizing technique?

"Lying for Jesus", as it were?