All roads lead to the same God ?

[Rival]

Yes but at the instigation and demand of the Jewish leaders .

No. This is false.

 

[KerimF]

He was put to death by the Romans, not the Jews.

You may be right.
In this case, it seems you also know of what Jesus was accused by the Romans to deserve the penalty of death.
And you likely know too the reason for which Romans decided to free the Jewish criminal Barabbas instead of Jesus.
Although I am in my 70's, I don't mind learning what I may have missed.
Thank you.

 

[John1.12]

So what about everyone before Jesus?

What about badly behaved Christians?

What about babies and mentally deficient folks?

What about animals?

Sola Fide theology makes no sense at all. It's unfair and it's senseless. It doesn't reward good behaviour and punish bad; it goes against everything found in the Tanakh. It goes against every single human culture and justice system ever made. Rewarding good and punishing bad is a fundamental aspect of ethics. Belief isn't a tangible thing and one can't even be assured in their beliefs, since religious belief deals with just that - belief. Many Jews, Muslims, Bahai's, Sikhs, Heathens, Kemetics, Hellenics and others are just as confident in their beliefs as you are in yours. That's without mentioning the sheer amount of different christologies, atonement theologies, views of Torah etc., that exist within Christianity.

So what about everyone before Jesus?
They were saved believing what God commanded at that time for them. At the time of moses it was faith and following the Law . Believing the promise to come. The picture wasn't clear that it would lead to Jesus and the cross for their redemption and ours. But they trusted and followed the God of the bible.

What about badly behaved Christians? A saved person today cannot be lost again .

What about babies and mentally deficient folks? God holds people accountable on two points . To understand . To understand the Gospel . and understand the law . Babies and mentally deficent are not held responsible in the same way . They cannot be held responsible for rejection of something they couldn't understand and be held responsible for .

What about animals?There will be animals in heaven. Not the ones that pass here though .

 

[Rival]

You may be right.
In this case, it seems you also know of what Jesus was accused by the Romans to deserve the penalty of death.
And you likely know too the reason for which Romans decided to free the Jewish criminal Barabbas instead of Jesus.
Although I am in my 70's, I don't mind learning what I may have missed.
Thank you.

My view is not the one presented by the Christian writings. I believe he was put to death for sedition. That's it, really. I believe the rest is an embellishment.

 

[Rival]

They were saved believing what God commanded at that time for them. At the time of moses it was faith and following the Law . Believing the promise to come. The picture wasn't clear that it would lead to Jesus and the cross for their redemption and ours. But they trusted and followed the God of the bible.

So what about non-Jews?

What about badly behaved Christians? A saved person today cannot be lost again .

This is despicable.

 

[John1.12]

You may be right.
In this case, it seems you also know of what Jesus was accused by the Romans to deserve the penalty of death.
And you likely know too the reason for which Romans decided to free the Jewish criminal Barabbas instead of Jesus.
Although I am in my 70's, I don't mind learning what I may have missed.
Thank you.

Pilate found no fault in Jesus, but appeased the jews demands in the end.

 

[John1.12]

My view is not the one presented by the Christian writings. I believe he was put to death for sedition. That's it, really. I believe the rest is an embellishment.

Is this from the biblical narrative?

 

[Rival]

Is this from the biblical narrative?

I take what the Christian writings say and what scholars say and come to my own view.

 

[John1.12]

No. This is false.

Which verse ?

 

[Rival]

Which verse ?

The whole narrative has Pontius Pilate as the one with the power to put Jesus to death. He does this.

 

[John1.12]

So what about non-Jews?


This is despicable.

1) Before Abraham and moses there were no Jews . They called upon Jehovah they followed him . Noah for example was saved because he believed God and 0beyed the command to build an Ark .

2) Why ' despicable ' ? No one is exempt of reeping what he sows . A Christian should know better of course . But the law in this land doesn't change for Christians. But no believer can ever go to hell once saved .Since I've been saved i am a better person. This is the consequence of receiving Jesus . Perfection? Never sinning ? No. But the motivation to live is greater because I cannot be lost. I don't fear , I love others more and I respect more ect .Salvation changes a person, he becomes a ' new creature ' old things are passed.

 

[Rival]

1) Before Abraham and moses there were no Jews . They called upon Jehovah they followed him . Noah for example was saved because he believed God and 0beyed the command to build an Ark .

The Torah was given to the Jews. What about everyone else who isn't part of this covenant? For over 1,000 years you're claiming they had no connexion to God.

2) Why ' despicable ' ? No one is exempt of reeping what he sows . A Christian should know better of course . But the law in this land doesn't change for Christians. But no believer can ever go to hell once saved .

It's despicable because anyone can believe in Jesus as his saviour and then go around mass murdering folks; you say he will go to Heaven, but the Pagan who helped orphans and animals will go to hell. If you need me to explain further I'd be seriously astonished.

 

[John1.12]

The whole narrative has Pontius Pilate as the one with the power to put Jesus to death. He does this.

Yes which verses though .
What about John 19 ?
1¶Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.

2And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,

3And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.

4¶Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.

5¶Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

6¶When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: FOR I FIND NO FAULT IN HIM .

7¶The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

8¶When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the MORE AFRAID ;

9And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

10¶Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11¶Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

12¶And from thenceforth PILATE SOUGHT TO RELEASE HIM : BUT THE JEWS cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

13¶When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

14And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

15¶But THEY cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR.

16¶Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

 

[John1.12]

Yes which verses though .
What about John 19 ?
1¶Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.

2And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,

3And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.

4¶Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.

5¶Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

6¶When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: FOR I FIND NO FAULT IN HIM .

7¶The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

8¶When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the MORE AFRAID ;

9And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

10¶Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11¶Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

12¶And from thenceforth PILATE SOUGHT TO RELEASE HIM : BUT THE JEWS cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

13¶When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

14And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

15¶But THEY cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR.

16¶Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

But ultimately Jesus laid down his own life .

 

[sayak83]

IMO, arguing that core beliefs of a path (e.g. that it's the only way to God) are illegitimate and recognizing the path as legitimate are mutually exclusive.

Are you sure you aren't recognizing the legitimacy of a caricature version of the other religion? Something that isn't the actual path, but that's been modified by you to fit your notions of what it ought to be?

... because that's a Potemkin Village version of inclusivity and not actually inclusive at all.

It's the mind of the person that mostly matters, not the scripture per se.

 

[Yazata]

Would you agree that if the claims of Jesus are true in that He is the only way to heaven. By believing in him , his death , burial and resurrection for our sins according to the Scriptures..If this is true ,this means all and every other religion and forms of spirituality are false

I don't agree. Other sorts of religiosity would only be false if they had the same goal of being the "way to heaven". A Buddhist might not be seeking that at all, but might be seeking Enlightenment, conceived in a very different way.

So there needn't be any contradiction and we could quite consistently say that faith in Christ is the one way to Christian salvation while simultaneously saying that the Buddha's path is the path to Buddhist enlightenment.

Of course, the Christian might add the observation that he/she doesn't believe in the reality of or the need for Buddhist enlightenment while the Buddhist likely doesn't believe in the reality of or the need for Christian salvation. But that disbelief in the fundamental doctrines of the other religion isn't necessary in order to keep things consistent if each path has a different purpose and goal.

and potentially harmful, as they lead away from God and the truth of the bible.

It works the other way too. Belief in Christianity might prevent somebody from taking advantage of the rare chance at enlightenment offered by the Buddha.

But both of these objections are functions of one's faith in his/her own path and will be relative to that path.

 

[sayak83]

Yes this is very popular . On the surface it sounds noble and virtuous. But it cannot be true . Could you list these ' roads ' that lead to God ? I guarantee their teachings , commands , directives and description of thier god will completely contradict each other .

It's the mind of the practioner and how it is oriented towards both the Absolute and the world that matters imo, more than the scriptures.

 

[Rival]

Yes which verses though .
What about John 19 ?
1¶Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him.

2And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and they put on him a purple robe,

3And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.

4¶Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him.

5¶Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

6¶When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: FOR I FIND NO FAULT IN HIM .

7¶The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

8¶When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the MORE AFRAID ;

9And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.

10¶Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

11¶Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

12¶And from thenceforth PILATE SOUGHT TO RELEASE HIM : BUT THE JEWS cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

13¶When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

14And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

15¶But THEY cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR.

16¶Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

I believe this whole segment is made up.

1) The Jews had way bigger problems than some random preacher. There were loads of these.

2) The evidence we have of PP suggests he was a nutcase. The Romans removed him from power from overstepping the mark. It's not in character for him to be so forgiving of a random street preacher such as Jesus.

3) This contradicts the other accounts where Jesus is actually crucified on a different day.

 

[Spirit of Light]

@Barry Johnson i do not know if you forgot to answer my question from post #117 or if you just skipped it, but would you give it an answer?

 

[John1.12]

I don't agree. Other sorts of religiosity would only be false if they had the same goal of being the "way to heaven". A Buddhist might not be seeking that at all, but might be seeking Enlightenment, conceived in a very different way.

So there needn't be any contradiction and we could quite consistently say that faith in Christ is the one way to Christian salvation while simultaneously saying that the Buddha's path is the path to Buddhist enlightenment.

Of course, the Christian might add the observation that he/she doesn't believe in the reality of or the need for Buddhist enlightenment while the Buddhist likely doesn't believe in the reality of or the need for Christian salvation. But that disbelief in the fundamental doctrines of the other religion isn't necessary in order to keep things consistent if each path has a different purpose and goal.



It works the other way too. Belief in Christianity might prevent somebody from taking advantage of the rare chance at enlightenment offered by the Buddha.

But both of these objections are functions of one's faith in his/her own path and will be relative to that path.

//So there needn't be any contradiction and we could quite consistently say that faith in Christ is the one way to Christian salvation while simultaneously saying that the Buddha's path is the path to Buddhist enlightenment.// ' Christian salvation ' ? The bible says that ' enlightenment ' is false. That there is no such experience as ' enlightenment ' the practices that I used to engage in as a follower of Eastern practices I know understand from the bible are demonic. Yes I know this is hard to hear ,because how could we say such a thing against such " gentile " and ' harmless things ' ? right . But according to the bible what is behind these practices and religions are false spirits. I had ' experiences ' that would make your hair stand on end . I thought I'd tapped into the universal consciousness , I thought I was meditating in the ' light ' ect ,but not at all . Satan comes as an angel of light . The bible calls all such practices as from false spirits and false gods. Either Christianity is false or Buddhism is false. They both cannot be legitimate truth claims at the same time . They completely contradict.