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All religion begins with this notion:

Discussion in 'General Debates' started by osgart, May 1, 2019.

  1. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Something that has meaningful coherency is intended and purposed to function for a reason.

    The existence of a written letter 'A' demands meaningful coherency to exist and that demands human agency.

    So too, the existence of organized life demands meaningful coherency and that demands intentional agency likewise.

    I, a human life form, am analogous to the writing of the letter 'A'. The human form expresses intentionality in its construction, and purposes specific to its cause.

    Meaningful Sense does not come from nonsense.

    Therefore consciousness is in fact fundamental.

    If consciousness is fundamental then an eternal source of it exists because meaningful coherence cannot come from incoherence, nor can it come from nonsense.
     
    #1 osgart, May 1, 2019
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
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  2. Woberts

    Woberts The Perfumed Seneschal

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    Writing exists, therefor God. That's a new one.
     
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  3. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Its an analogy to the existence of human life.
     
  4. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    The concept of God is not directly in question. An eternal source could be vastly different than God while having perhaps some of those qualities.
     
  5. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    First of all, let's understand coherency.

    Definition of Coherence
    Coherence is a Latin word, meaning “to stick together.” In a composition, coherence is a literary technique that refers to logical connections, which listeners or readers perceive in an oral or written text. In other words, it is a written or spoken piece that is not only consistent and logical, but also unified and meaningful. It makes sense when read or listened to as a whole. The structure of a coherent paragraph could be general to particular and particular to general or any other format.
    source

    In short then, something that is coherent is comprised of united parts so as to form a logical, meaningful whole.

    Why? Just because A requires X doesn't necessarily mean B requires X. Just because fish require fins in order to swim doesn't mean humans require fins to swim.

    Ever see a crystal, which has extreme structural coherency, form out of a liquid, which is structurally incoherent?


    Boy, that's one hell of a leap in logic you just made. Care to tell us how you did it?

    So now coherency is movement that has objectives. :rolleyes:

    Ah, before you can announce a "Therefore" ya gotta establish a couple of premises, each of which MUST contain one of the two terms in your "therefore" statement.

    And the pile just grows higher and higher, doesn't it. :D

    .
     
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  6. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Comparing the abiogenic life to human development of the alphabet. The difference in complexity is too great IMO for the simile to be useful.
     
  7. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Fins are to fish as hands are too humans.
     
  8. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    I am comparing the writing of a letter to the form of a human being. Abiogenesis and evolution are merely the medium used to construct the forms of life.
     
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  9. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Coherence is meant as meaningfully constructed forms.

    What appears incoherent about the formation of a crystal is not necessarily incoherent though it appears so.

    Even being that the liquid is incoherent something coherent is made of it. The coherency may still be agency built into the laws of nature regardless.

    Anyway a crystal is not the same kind of coherence as the human form. The human form has specific functions meant for survival, and crystals are merely beautiful.
     
    #9 osgart, May 1, 2019
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  10. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    A is analogous to B. They are not the same. Humans and fish are analogous to writing different letters.
     
  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    The form of a "man" has changed over time.

    [​IMG]

    Not through conscious choice.

    I suppose I don't know how much conscious choice was involved in the evolution of the alphabet. Like who decided the letter A had to have the shape it has?

    We started with pictures, hieroglyphs which a drawing of a bird is a bird. Not a lot of intelligence needed there.

    A - Wikipedia
     
  12. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    You beat me to it, but I concur with your points. Especially the daring leap of logic to declare consciousness as fundamental, using the argument that he did.
     
  13. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    You say NOT through conscious choice.

    And i am saying there must be an adaptive program built into nature.

    Nature does the deciding through a program made of agency in response to the environment.
     
  14. Nakosis

    Nakosis crystal soldier
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    Maybe, or not.

    Kind of what I'm saying is the complexity of forces involved is not easily understood. We can only guess at it. I'm certain there are more brainy folks who possess more knowledge about some of these forces than I but I can't imagine we've been able to catalogue them all.

    Based on a lack of knowing, I'm not ready to attribute a supernatural intelligence involvement as one of those forces. Gambling on one's own ignorance is usually a losing position.
     
  15. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Sense does not emanate from nonsense is another way of saying it. So if sense exists it must have always existed.
     
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    It does not have to be supernatural to be a form of agency.
     
  17. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    Religion makes daring leaps of logic. But they are simple inductions, not hard to understand. Often its a matter of strong intuition on the part of a believer.

    It makes sense to the religious.

    I only hope i expressed the logic clear enough. The implications of the logic lead the religious in entirely different paths then the non religious.
     
  18. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Just what does "meaningfully constructed" denote? That it was purposefully constructed by an intelligence?

    It isn't the "formation," of a solid object, a process, but its former state; a non solid. Recall what you said, "Coherency cannot arise from incoherency" Take a pool of water from which a crystal grows. Tell us how it's physical state as a liquid fits the definition of coherency.

    Yup, which is why you were wrong to claim, "Coherency cannot arise from incoherency . . . ."

    Where oh where did you get the idea that coherency is an agency? "Coherency" is a noun that expresses a state of being.

    coherency
    1.
    n the state of cohering or sticking together
    2.
    n logical and orderly and consistent relation of parts​


    So what? Does this make you mistaken pronouncements right? Of course not.

    .
     
    #18 Skwim, May 1, 2019
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
  19. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
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    Discordianism doesn't...
     
  20. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    The type of coherency i speak of may be caused by agency and that would mean some form of intelligence is built into nature.
     
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