Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But God the Creator did not say that all have sinned, some of the authors of the gospels said that.
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All Have Sinned
- Thread starter InChrist
- Start date
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Anyone can make a claim but a claim is not proof that the claim is true.
I never said you created the bible
Only if you can show, with evidence that a creator god exists, what is more ignorant, belief in reality or belief in bronze age mythology?
And i think you need to check on the definition of reality
Reality : the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
And if your idea is false, where are you? Having lived your life in fear of offending a God that by its very nature cannot be offended. Which is more logical?
InChrist
Free4ever
True, but if God is making the claim and has put all kinds of evidence out for any sincere seeker, including sending His only Son who conquered death in fulfillment of numerous prophesies, then I think it is a claim each person should consider giving serious attention to, don’t you?
InChrist
Free4ever
For one set free by Jesus Christ there is no fear, as His perfect love casts out fear ( 1 John 4:18 ) and who the Son sets free is free indeed
( John 8:36 ).
InChrist
Free4ever
Well, I think since God is making the claim then He is responsible to provide then evidence. I think God has given an abundance of evidence, but I believe He desires each person to personally seek Him to reveal it. So all I can do is point you to God and suggest you sincerely ask Him to show you.
I think since it involves one’s eternal destiny, according to the scriptures, it’s important enough to seriously pursue. Just my thoughts.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
But as I said in my other post, it is not God who is making the claim, it is the authors of the NT who claim to speak for Jesus who spoke for God. So the evidence is not direct evidence because it does not come directly from Jesus who spoke for God. If I was never a Baha'i, I probably would not give any serious consideration to the Bible because there would be no way to verify that it is the testimony of God, and that is where most atheists are coming from.
But because Baha'u'llah wrote that the Bible is God's greatest testimony to His creatures, I am compelled to believe that it is. However, the Bible can be interpreted in various and sundry ways, so I believe that Jesus conquered spiritual death, not physical death, since physical death is a reality for every living creature, a finality that nobody can come back from. The soul (or spirit, which means the same thing as soul in the context of immortality) is what lives on and passes from one world to another, not the physical body.
421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351
InChrist
Free4ever
We have a different perspective on the subject because I believe the scriptures in the Bible make the clear claim to be God’s words and Jesus verifies this.
Before I was saved I used to read lots of spiritual material all claiming to interpret what the Bible said. I think that is where you are at with understanding the Bible through the lens and interpretation of Baha'u'llah.
When I started simply reading the Bible without all the interpretations imposed upon it by others and seeking God alone for understanding, it became so clear. I really was blind until God opened my eyes and mind.The gospel message is so simple and that is the reason Jesus said to become like a child to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Bible verses can have more than one correct meaning, but as a Baha'i, I believe that any interpretations Baha'u'llah made supersede any other interpretations, because I believe He was the Representative of God among men.
“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176
I understand what you are saying, but since many Christian say the exact same thing and they interpret the Bible differently than you do, that calls all the Christian interpretations into question. I mean how can you all be right when your interpretations contradict each other? That is logically impossible.
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I think it is helpful to understand the role of priests in God's arrangement. In Israel, priests officially represented God to the people they served, instructing them about God and his laws. In turn, they represented the people before God, offering sacrifices for sins as well as interceding and pleading on behalf of the people. The High Priest was the one who presided over the entire priesthood and was overseer of their duties.
Hebrews 5:1 says....“Every high priest taken from among men is appointed in behalf of men over the things pertaining to God, that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.” The Hebrew term translated “priest” is ko·henʹ; the Greek, hi·e·reusʹ.
The apostle Peter explained to the Jews who were present from many nations, that their only salvation now lay in repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ. (Acts ch 2; Hebrews 2:1-4)
Later, Peter spoke of the Jewish builders rejecting Jesus Christ as the cornerstone and then said to Christians: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession.’” (1 Peter 2:7-9)
Peter explained also that the new priesthood is “a spiritual house for the purpose of a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2:5) Jesus Christ is their great High Priest.
Peter wrote...."In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely. 22 He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. 23 When he was being insulted, he did not insult in return. When he was suffering, he did not threaten, but he entrusted himself to the One who judges righteously. 24 He himself bore our sins in his own body on the stake, so that we might die to sins and live to righteousness. And “by his wounds you were healed.”
1John 2:1-2...
"My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not commit a sin. And yet, if anyone does commit a sin, we have a helper with the Father, Jesus Christ, a righteous one. 2 And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s."
The word, "propitiatitory" here is..."hil-as-mos'; which means "atonement, i.e. an expiator".
"At-one-ment" is giving one thing in exchange for another of equal value.
Jesus' sinless life was given to balance out the sinless life that Adam lost for his children. He gave his life in exchange for ours, as he said..."Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28)
If the human race were not sinners, (falling short of perfection) then what is the purpose of the royal priesthood of Jesus and his anointed underpriests? (Revelation 20:6)
You have falsifiable evidence that a god made the claim?
And I can quote the Bhagavad Gita refuting that Jesus is God, having the power to free us, and refuting Christian beliefs that we need to be freed from anything. So who’s right and who’s wrong? The difference is that Hindus don’t have the need to proselytize or convert people, because we understand everyone has their own way. See, there’s the problem... a propensity by some, many but not all Christians to sell Christianity and Jesus as the only way. That’s a very limited and narrow view, stemming from a misunderstanding of what Jesus was saying and whom he was addressing.
The Rig Veda tells us “one Truth known by many names”. Teacher and saint Sri Ramakrishna tells us:
- “Many are the names of God, and infinite the forms that lead us to know Him. In whatsoever name or form you desire to call Him, in that very form and name you will see Him”.
- “One should not think, "My religion alone is the right path and other religions are false." God can be realized by means of all paths. It is enough to have sincere yearning for God. Infinite are the paths and infinite the opinions.”
Not relevant to other worldviews.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
always thought it was a misconception
we …..all of us.....are born IN sin
the same word in Spanish is translated......without
and in that meaning the word …..sin....is applied much better
we are born....without God
the soul then seeks it's way back
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Firstly, falling short of perfection does not make one a sinner, Imo. No human is perfect, only God is perfect.If the human race were not sinners, (falling short of perfection) then what is the purpose of the royal priesthood of Jesus and his anointed underpriests? (Revelation 20:6)
Secondly, according to my Baha'i beliefs, the purpose of Jesus' sacrifice and how that is related to sin is as follows:
Question.—In verse 22 of chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians it is written: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” What is the meaning of these words?
Answer.—Know that there are two natures in man: the physical nature and the spiritual nature. The physical nature is inherited from Adam, and the spiritual nature is inherited from the Reality of the Word of God, which is the spirituality of Christ. The physical nature is born of Adam, but the spiritual nature is born from the bounty of the Holy Spirit. The first is the source of all imperfection; the second is the source of all perfection.
The Christ sacrificed Himself so that men might be freed from the imperfections of the physical nature and might become possessed of the virtues of the spiritual nature. This spiritual nature, which came into existence through the bounty of the Divine Reality, is the union of all perfections and appears through the breath of the Holy Spirit. It is the divine perfections; it is light, spirituality, guidance, exaltation, high aspiration, justice, love, grace, kindness to all, philanthropy, the essence of life. It is the reflection of the splendor of the Sun of Reality.
The Christ is the central point of the Holy Spirit: He is born of the Holy Spirit; He is raised up by the Holy Spirit; He is the descendant of the Holy Spirit—that is to say, that the Reality of Christ does not descend from 119 Adam; no, it is born of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, this verse in Corinthians, “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive,” means, according to this terminology, that Adam 1 is the father of man—that is to say, He is the cause of the physical life of mankind; His was the physical fatherhood. He is a living soul, but He is not the giver of spiritual life, whereas Christ is the cause of the spiritual life of man, and with regard to the spirit, His was the spiritual fatherhood. Adam is a living soul; Christ is a quickening spirit.
This physical world of man is subject to the power of the lusts, and sin is the consequence of this power of the lusts, for it is not subject to the laws of justice and holiness. The body of man is a captive of nature; it will act in accordance with whatever nature orders. It is, therefore, certain that sins such as anger, jealousy, dispute, covetousness, avarice, ignorance, prejudice, hatred, pride and tyranny exist in the physical world. All these brutal qualities exist in the nature of man. A man who has not had a spiritual education is a brute. Like the savages of Africa, whose actions, habits and morals are purely sensual, they act according to the demands of nature to such a degree that they rend and eat one another. Thus it is evident that the physical world of man is a world of sin. In this physical world man is not distinguished from the animal.
All sin comes from the demands of nature, and these demands, which arise from the physical qualities, are not sins with respect to the animals, while for man they are sin. The animal is the source of imperfections, such as anger, sensuality, jealousy, avarice, cruelty, pride: all these defects are found in animals but do not constitute sins. But in man they are sins.
Adam is the cause of man’s physical life; but the Reality of Christ—that is to say, the Word of God—is the cause of spiritual life. It is “a quickening spirit,” meaning that all the imperfections which come from the requirements of the physical life of man are transformed into human perfections by the teachings and education of that spirit. Therefore, Christ was a quickening spirit, and the cause of life in all mankind.
Adam was the cause of physical life, and as the physical world of man is the world of imperfections, and imperfections are the equivalent of death, Paul compared the physical imperfections to death.
But the mass of the Christians believe that, as Adam ate of the forbidden tree, He sinned in that He disobeyed, and that the disastrous consequences of this disobedience have been transmitted as a heritage and have remained among His descendants. Hence Adam became the cause of the death of humanity. This explanation is unreasonable and evidently wrong, for it means that all men, even the Prophets and the Messengers of God, without committing any sin or fault, but simply because they are the posterity of Adam, have become without reason guilty sinners, and until the day of the sacrifice of Christ were held captive in hell in painful torment. This is far from the justice of God. If Adam was a sinner, what is the sin of Abraham? What is the fault of Isaac, or of Joseph? Of what is Moses guilty?
But Christ, Who is the Word of God, sacrificed Himself. This has two meanings, an apparent and an esoteric meaning. The outward meaning is this: Christ’s intention was to represent and promote a Cause which was to educate the human world, to quicken the children of Adam, and to enlighten all mankind; and since to represent such a great Cause—a Cause which was antagonistic to all the people of the world and all the nations and kingdoms—meant that He would be killed and crucified, so Christ in proclaiming His mission sacrificed His life. He regarded the cross as a throne, the wound as a balm, the poison as honey and sugar. He arose to teach and educate men, and so He sacrificed Himself to give the spirit of life. He perished in body so as to quicken others by the spirit.
The second meaning of sacrifice is this: Christ was like a seed, and this seed sacrificed its own form so that the tree might grow and develop. Although the form of the seed was destroyed, its reality became apparent in perfect majesty and beauty in the form of a tree.
The position of Christ was that of absolute perfection; He made His divine perfections shine like the sun upon all believing souls, and the bounties of the light shone and radiated in the reality of men. This is why He says: “I am the bread which descended from heaven; whosoever shall eat of this bread will not die” 2 —that is to say, that whosoever shall partake of this divine food will attain unto eternal life: that is, every one who partakes of this bounty and receives these perfections will find eternal life, will obtain preexistent favors, will be freed from the darkness of error, and will be illuminated by the light of His guidance.
The form of the seed was sacrificed for the tree, but its perfections, because of this sacrifice, became evident and apparent—the tree, the branches, the leaves and the blossoms being concealed in the seed. When the form of the seed was sacrificed, its perfections appeared in the perfect form of leaves, blossoms and fruits.
Some Answered Questions, pp. 118-121
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I am sure glad I am a Baha'i, so I can see the beauty in Hinduism and Christianity and all the other true religions.And I can quote the Bhagavad Gita refuting that Jesus is God, having the power to free us, and refuting Christian beliefs that we need to be freed from anything. So who’s right and who’s wrong? The difference is that Hindus don’t have the need to proselytize or convert people, because we understand everyone has their own way. See, there’s the problem... a propensity by some, many but not all Christians to sell Christianity and Jesus as the only way. That’s a very limited and narrow view, stemming from a misunderstanding of what Jesus was saying and whom he was addressing.
The Rig Veda tells us “one Truth known by many names”. Teacher and saint Sri Ramakrishna tells us:
So you see, I can do this all day long, but I don’t because I believe those things our scriptures, saints and teachers tell us, but they may not be right for someone else. I can also point out why someone who doesn’t follow our way will hit spiritual roadblocks, but I don’t because of what those quotes tell us.
- “Many are the names of God, and infinite the forms that lead us to know Him. In whatsoever name or form you desire to call Him, in that very form and name you will see Him”.
- “One should not think, "My religion alone is the right path and other religions are false." God can be realized by means of all paths. It is enough to have sincere yearning for God. Infinite are the paths and infinite the opinions.”
I believe that many religions were changed by man but their spiritual truths still shine through as bright as the sun.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
There is a bible quote that says, "sin is not imputed where there is no law." Sin is connected to law. Law is symbolized by the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Knowledge of the law or good and evil gives sin its power. Original sin is connected to law; knowledge of good and evil, and how law makes sin possible by defining the sin.
For example, not too many years ago it was unlawful to possess marijuana in the USA, in any state. If you broke that law, you sinned against the civil law, and you would be punished. The wage of sin was jail.
Today, there are many states where it is legal to possess marijuana. Since the law has been done away with, in those states, the former sin is revoked in those states. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. If I travel to a nearby state, that still has the older strict law, I can become a sinner in that state, for doing the very things that are not considered sins in my state. Sometime we sin and not even know it, until the PC police yell at you, based on their book of knowledge of good and evil. This is the pitfall of law; laws of man create to many sins.
If we did away with all law there would be no sin, since sin is not imputed where there is no law. Or we can go the other way and increase sin by making even more laws. The current trend in law is to blame the past in terms of the present. What we know now, is not what was known in the past, so many thing we now call sin was not a sin in the past. There was no law then. But revisionist historians are trying to add more law to the past, through time travel games, so we can make more sinners, out the sinless of different times.
Jesus approached law and sin in a different way. Getting all laws repealed would be resisted, so Jesus came up with the idea of the forgiveness of sins. This can do the same thing. If I broke the speed limit, but the arresting police officer gave me a warning, and said have a good day, this is similar to there being no law but only guidelines. Sin is not imputed where there is no law. He did not impute sin that day, so the law was not in effect at that instant.
Another trend in the law, also from the left, is to blame everyone for sinning simply because of being white. Being white is a left wing knock off of original sin. Even if you did nothing you are accused of, your skin color will make it a sin, based on the laws of busy bodies and imbeciles.
For example, not too many years ago it was unlawful to possess marijuana in the USA, in any state. If you broke that law, you sinned against the civil law, and you would be punished. The wage of sin was jail.
Today, there are many states where it is legal to possess marijuana. Since the law has been done away with, in those states, the former sin is revoked in those states. Sin is not imputed when there is no law. If I travel to a nearby state, that still has the older strict law, I can become a sinner in that state, for doing the very things that are not considered sins in my state. Sometime we sin and not even know it, until the PC police yell at you, based on their book of knowledge of good and evil. This is the pitfall of law; laws of man create to many sins.
If we did away with all law there would be no sin, since sin is not imputed where there is no law. Or we can go the other way and increase sin by making even more laws. The current trend in law is to blame the past in terms of the present. What we know now, is not what was known in the past, so many thing we now call sin was not a sin in the past. There was no law then. But revisionist historians are trying to add more law to the past, through time travel games, so we can make more sinners, out the sinless of different times.
Jesus approached law and sin in a different way. Getting all laws repealed would be resisted, so Jesus came up with the idea of the forgiveness of sins. This can do the same thing. If I broke the speed limit, but the arresting police officer gave me a warning, and said have a good day, this is similar to there being no law but only guidelines. Sin is not imputed where there is no law. He did not impute sin that day, so the law was not in effect at that instant.
Another trend in the law, also from the left, is to blame everyone for sinning simply because of being white. Being white is a left wing knock off of original sin. Even if you did nothing you are accused of, your skin color will make it a sin, based on the laws of busy bodies and imbeciles.
This then begs the question...does God create imperfect things?
If he does, can it be said that he is perfect? Why create what is less than perfect if he knows that it creates problems and suffering?
If he doesn’t create imperfect things, then why is there so much wrong on this perfect planet?....all of it has to do with humans. The world was doing fine without humans....so why are we here if we are the only influence in this world that is negative?
Some of that gels with my scripture, but how is it that Baha’i can claim that all “scripture” and “prophets” are from God? When your beliefs contradict the Bible, (which a great deal of them do) it seems as if you just conveniently ignore it, and refer to something your prophet said as if it waves it all away. I have never found that to be the case.
My God does not contradict himself......his words, as recorded in the Bible, do not give mixed messages, and he roundly condemns the worship of other gods, punishing his own people who made excisions into false worship, very severely.
I believe that it comes down to understanding where, and from what source false worship originated and how it infiltrated all cultures on earth. To disregard that vital information is tantamount to arming God’s adversary....giving him a constant supply of recruits and ammunition. The devil’s greatest victory is to convince people that he doesn’t exist.
It appears to me that Baha’i wants to appeal to those who want God to be “all accepting” and “all inclusive”, when that is not who he portrayed himself to be at all. The 10 Commandments state that his worship was to be “exclusive”. That exclusivity does not allow for the inclusion of any other gods, scripture or prophets.
We all have the same sources of information, so it comes back down to “who” we believe and “why” we believe them....this is our heart at work....telling God who we really are, are how well we can follow his directions.
Obedience is all God has ever asked of us....we are showing him who he can rely onto uphold his laws and treat their fellow man with love and respect......who is really taking Jesus’ example to heart?
It’s all about our decisions....
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God does not create imperfect beings. Baha'is believe that we are all born good, as we were created in the image of God, and it is after we are born and start living life that we differentiate ourselves by our deeds.
Simply put, the reason there is so much wrong on this planet is because many but not all people are materialistic and selfish and also because they are rebellious, so they do not follow the teachings and laws that God revealed in religions. However, I see a shifting of values, a slow turn of the tide; very slowly but surely people are starting to change for the better.
Bahais beliefs do not contradict the Bible, they are just different from the Bible because this is a new religious dispensation.
Dispensation
- the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
- an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
- a divinely appointed order or age:
Definition of dispensation | Dictionary.com
And what about Muslim beliefs, and Buddhist beliefs and Hindu beliefs, they also differ from the Bible. Why should the Bible be the Divine Standard by which all other religious beliefs are measured?
Bahais do not worship any other God but the one true God,and the same applies to Muslims.
As I am sure you know by now, Bahai's do not believe that the devil is an existent being, but rather we believe Satan represents the lower selfish nature of man, The Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap us, which Baha'u'llah referred to as the Satanic self:
“Say: O people! The Lamp of God is burning; take heed, lest the fierce winds of your disobedience extinguish its light. Now is the time to arise and magnify the Lord, your God. Strive not after bodily comforts, and keep your heart pure and stainless. The Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the one true God, deliver yourselves from the darkness that surroundeth you. Center your thoughts in the Well-Beloved, rather than in your own selves.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 167-168
That might have been true when the 10 Commandments were revealed but time marches on. Humans are not static and the world is not static, so what should God stop dead in His tracks? Imo, scripture that was written thousands of years ago does not apply to the present age. The spiritual truths are eternal, but the message differs. Was the mission and message of Moses the same as the mission and message of Jesus?
I do not think we can trust our heart to be a reliable source of truth unless it is used in conjunction with our mind. God creates us with a brain and mind for a reason. Baha'u'llah wrote that od wants only our hearts:
“Dispute not with any one concerning the things of this world and its affairs, for God hath abandoned them to such as have set their affection upon them. Out of the whole world He hath chosen for Himself the hearts of men—hearts which the hosts of revelation and of utterance can subdue.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 279
“That the heart is the throne, in which the Revelation of God the All-Merciful is centered, is attested by the holy utterances which We have formerly revealed.....
Among them is this saying: “Earth and heaven cannot contain Me; what can alone contain Me is the heart of him that believeth in Me, and is faithful to My Cause.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 186
I do not really know, but I sure hope some people are.