Alec Baldwin Killed More People Than My Guns Have

[Heyo]

If you think Americans are going to turn in their guns because of a ban you are very niave. All it will do is instantly create criminals that were formerly lawful gun owners.

I know that US citizens have special needs. And neither am I for a total ban on guns nor do I think it would work in the US. But the numbers show that there are too many irresponsible gun owners and that gun ownership has to be restricted. E.g. the vast majority of US citizens are for background checks and red flag laws, heck, the majority of NRA members are for that. But whenever such a bill is introduced every congressman and every senator gets a letter from the (leadership of the) NRA that they will support the campaign of an opponent if he votes "yes".

 

[ChristineM]

Suicides will still be suicides. Criminals will still be criminals, no matter the tools used.
And a gun ban will not lead to less guns. It will just lead to more people being viewed as criminals because they will hide the guns, not turn them in...
I lost all mine in a tragic boating accident BTW.

It seems to work in every country that has banned or severely limited access

And while they are not banned/ restricted any children that get hold of their father's loaded gun to play with may still kill people

 

[Heyo]

... but let's work through a scenario: take an average gang shooting; let's look through the chain of custody for the gun that was used. Do you think that gun can be traced back to a legal gun manufacturer, distributor, retailer, etc.?

Possibly in one step. The gang member may own that gun legally.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Suicides will still be suicides.

Some of us care about lives lost to suicide. If you don't, I'm not really inclined to give much weight to your opinions.

Criminals will still be criminals, no matter the tools used.

The more expensive a gun is on the black market, the fewer people will be willing or able to buy black market guns.

Reducing the supply of guns flowing to the black market will increase the price of guns on the black market.

If you disagree, please tell us why you think that guns don't follow the same laws of supply and demand that everything else does.

Someone committing minor property theft is a lot less likely to carry a gun "just in case" if they can't afford to buy a gun and they can't readily steal one.

And a gun ban will not lead to less guns. It will just lead to more people being viewed as criminals because they will hide the guns, not turn them in...
I lost all mine in a tragic boating accident BTW.

By definition, all "law-abiding" gun owners will abide by the law... right?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Possibly in one step. The gang member may own that gun legally.

If gang members can legally obtain guns, then this points to problems with ease of access to firearms. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Stevicus]

I know that US citizens have special needs. And neither am I for a total ban on guns nor do I think it would work in the US. But the numbers show that there are too many irresponsible gun owners and that gun ownership has to be restricted. E.g. the vast majority of US citizens are for background checks and red flag laws, heck, the majority of NRA members are for that. But whenever such a bill is introduced every congressman and every senator gets a letter from the (leadership of the) NRA that they will support the campaign of an opponent if he votes "yes".

Some gun control legislation is also struck down in the courts based on the Second Amendment. A lot of issues could be resolved if the Second Amendment was repealed, but that doesn't seem to be politically feasible. A lot of people put a great deal of focus on the language of that Amendment and try to reinterpret it in any number of ways, but if they want to do away with it, they should just do away with it. If they can't do that, either because it's not politically expedient or they don't feel it's possible, then we're stuck with what we're stuck with.

Of course, I've also heard it said that the Constitution should not be considered a suicide pact.

On a political level, gun control is one of those hot button issues that always triggers intense debates and arguments. In order to deal with the issue in a more forthright manner, it would require a great deal of commitment of political capital - which some politicians aren't willing to commit. Many of them have made their political careers on manipulating and stoking the fears of the American people, and they can't very easily reverse themselves now.

Statistically, the murder rate has come down significantly since the crime waves of the 80s and 90s, although recent reports would indicate a bit of an uptick in the past year or two.

Personally, I don't really feel that unsafe. It's not that I'm not troubled by the level of violence out there, but it's not exactly the chaotic "Mad Max" dystopia that some people are trying to make it out to be. Maybe it's like that in some areas of some cities, like Chicago, which oftentimes sounds like some kind of war zone.

 

[Heyo]

Some gun control legislation is also struck down in the courts based on the Second Amendment. A lot of issues could be resolved if the Second Amendment was repealed, but that doesn't seem to be politically feasible. A lot of people put a great deal of focus on the language of that Amendment and try to reinterpret it in any number of ways, but if they want to do away with it, they should just do away with it. If they can't do that, either because it's not politically expedient or they don't feel it's possible, then we're stuck with what we're stuck with.

Of course, I've also heard it said that the Constitution should not be considered a suicide pact.

Most measures wouldn't conflict with the Second and they are already implemented on a local level - which doesn't really help when people go in and out of town on a daily commute.

The real questions the US has to answer are:
- do we think we have a gun problem?
- do we want to do something against it?
- can we do something against it?

Currently the answers are "maybe", "not if it inconveniences me" and "no, we are sooo helpless".

Personally, I don't really feel that unsafe. It's not that I'm not troubled by the level of violence out there, but it's not exactly the chaotic "Mad Max" dystopia that some people are trying to make it out to be. Maybe it's like that in some areas of some cities, like Chicago, which oftentimes sounds like some kind of war zone.

Not exactly "Mad Max", but "Judge Dread":

 

[Wildswanderer]

I know that US citizens have special needs. And neither am I for a total ban on guns nor do I think it would work in the US. But the numbers show that there are too many irresponsible gun owners and that gun ownership has to be restricted. E.g. the vast majority of US citizens are for background checks and red flag laws, heck, the majority of NRA members are for that. But whenever such a bill is introduced every congressman and every senator gets a letter from the (leadership of the) NRA that they will support the campaign of an opponent if he votes "yes".

The numbers show no such thing. The numbers show that there are too many criminals who think Guns are for intimidation and murder instead of defense.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Some of us care about lives lost to suicide. If you don't, I'm not really inclined to give much weight to your opinions

I didn't say I didn't care about suicide. If you have ever lost someone to suicide you would not be flippant about it with others. But there are lots of ways to take yourself out and guns may be quick but they are not the cleanest option or only option. If someone doesn't have a gun they find another method.

 

[Heyo]

The numbers show no such thing. The numbers show that there are too many criminals who think Guns are for intimidation and murder instead of defense.

And you are OK with these criminals having easy access to guns?

 

[Wildswanderer]

The more expensive a gun is on the black market, the fewer people will be willing or able to buy black market guns.

Reducing the supply of guns flowing to the black market will increase the price of guns on the black market.

If you disagree, please tell us why you think that guns don't follow the same laws of supply and demand that everything else does.

Someone committing minor property theft is a lot less likely to carry a gun "just in case" if they can't afford to buy a gun and they can't readily steal one.

You are missing the key problem, this just means people who could protect their property and lives with a gun no longer can. It's a violation of basic human rights.
Those "cheap" handguns aren't just for criminals. Actually, there's no such thing as a cheap handgun anymore. Biden drove gun prices through the roof. The only way to get one cheap is to inherit it or steal it.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And you are OK with these criminals having easy access to guns?

no one has "easy access"...have you checked gun prices lately? And we already have background checks. I have known a person who could not buy a gun because he stole a case of beer when he was still a teenager.

 

[Heyo]

no one has "easy access"...have you checked gun prices lately? And we already have background checks. I have known a person who could not buy a gun because he stole a case of beer when he was still a teenager.

You are contradicting yourself. You said that there are too many criminals with guns. And now you are saying it is hard to get a gun.
To me it seems it isn't hard enough if all those criminals have guns.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I didn't say I didn't care about suicide.

You certainly implied it.

If you have ever lost someone to suicide you would not be flippant about it with others.

I have.

But there are lots of ways to take yourself out and guns may be quick but they are not the cleanest option or only option. If someone doesn't have a gun they find another method.

The stats don't bear that out, but I'm sure that won't stop you from holding that opinion.

Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide


Every study that has examined the issue to date has found that within the U.S., access to firearms is associated with increased suicide risk.

Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide

 

[Wildswanderer]

You are contradicting yourself. You said that there are too many criminals with guns. And now you are saying it is hard to get a gun.
To me it seems it isn't hard enough if all those criminals have guns.

They probably steal them. That's kinda what criminals do. So your solution is to take them away from the people who actually paid for them?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are missing the key problem, this just means people who could protect their property and lives with a gun no longer can. It's a violation of basic human rights.

Nonsense.

The ability to put holes in someone is not a "basuc human right." Not even if they're trying to steal your TV.

Those "cheap" handguns aren't just for criminals. Actually, there's no such thing as a cheap handgun anymore. Biden drove gun prices through the roof. The only way to get one cheap is to inherit it or steal it.

So then secure gun storage mandates ought to keep more guns out of the hands of criminals, no?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Is it too early?

As unfortunate and tragic as the onset accidental shooting is it begs the question, why are so many actors in movies that are actively anti-gun act in movies that feature firearms?

"NRA Safety Rules​

The fundamental NRA rules for safe gun handling are:​

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger.

3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does."​

source: NRA Safety Rules

If anything, this makes Alec Baldwin's (and others') point about how dangerous guns can be. Tragically so.

 

[Wildswanderer]

You certainly implied it.


I have.


The stats don't bear that out, but I'm sure that won't stop you from holding that opinion.



Firearm Access is a Risk Factor for Suicide

Maybe we should ban rope, because the people I know who committed suicide used ropes. And then we could ban bridges that are hight enough to die if you jump and tall buildings also...and cliffs and knives and....

 

[Wildswanderer]

So then secure gun storage mandates ought to keep more guns out of the hands of criminals, no?

Locking your gun up assures that you won't have access to it when you need it. And "secure" is relative anyway. Not much is secure to a person with a torch.

 

[Revoltingest]

Locking your gun up assures that you won't have access to it when you need it. And "secure" is relative anyway. Not much is secure to a person with a torch.

I use a rapid access safe.
And thieves seldom carry cutting torches.