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Aisha's age - The real debate

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Bukhari's hadith says Aisha was 6 when she God married to the prophet Muhammed. Apparently the marriage was consummated at the age of 9. Imam Muslim's hadith says she got married when she was 7. So thats a classic case of Master vs Disciple contradiction. Bukhari starts collecting hadith after two centuries, his disciple changes the story within a few years, wonder what kind of changes took place through 8 whole generations???

    6 or 7, is that a maritable age? Are we kidding ourselves? Christians, atheists and other apologists, evangelists have used this narrative to bash the whole religion of Islam and rightfully too. Some Muslims respond saying "at the time girls grew up fast". Really?? Where is the research to show that girls grew up fast at the time? Did you just make that up as an excuse? Thats a lie.

    Accept it in your head. If a man married a child, its statutory rape. Don't make excuses for it. But lo and behold, did this marriage actually occur when this girl was so young? Is this the only narrative? What if this is all a lie? Believing in a hadith as gospel truth is called "hadith absolutism". You are claiming you follow the Quran, but you are not. You are claiming hadith is second to the Quran, but no, you have made it far above the Quran.

    Christian evangelists, Atheists, others who all quote this story may think its true, but it is most probably a complete bogus story. For those Muslims who would want this story to be true in order to marry young girls, be superior or/and strike fear in girls minds for domination, you guys are wrong. Here are the reasons why. I will take the traditional sources of ahadith (because Muslims and Christians both are in love with hadith and love to quote them) and pick on the Quran a bit because after-all, Muslims claim that this is their basis for the theology of Islam.

    This so called marriage according to ahadith has been reported to have occured in the year 624 (earliest 623). Thats the foundation to all of these hadith analysis.

    1. Same Bukhari reports in the book of commentary, book 58, hadith number 1784 that a Surah or chapter (chapter 54) has a verse that was revealed when she was in mecca (Before the Hijra) and she was a "Jaariyathu Alabu" which means "a young girl at playful age".

    What does that mean? It means that Aisha was a young girl, who was of a playful age when this chapter 54 was revealed. So Aisha supposedly narrated this as she remembered and narrated the verse as well, and what age do you think she would have been in order to remember a verse of the Quran and to remember the day it was revealed or time period in Mecca? She would have been what age? 10? 8?

    And when was chapter 54 revealed?? It was revealed in 614 (10 years before the supposed marriage). Then how old do you think she would have been? 20? 18? Why are you clashing with your own Hadith?

    2. Second hadith in Bukhari says that Aisha reports that ever since she could reason (Aqal or reasoning power) which is a mature age where someone can reason for themselves, her parents were Muslims. Right. So when was that? 610?

    How old do you think she would have been then at an age where she can use her own Aqal? Kunthu Aaqil. 10 years old? So does that make her 24 years on the year 624? Alright, some argue that maybe she grew up early and used her reasoning prowess at a very young age. Lol. Okay fine. So lets say she was 6 (which is impossible). Still, she would have been 20 years old in 624. What now? Another contradiction?

    3. There are many ahadith about the sister of Aisha who was 10 years older to her. This is of course a very well known thing though. There is a book called Al Bidhayah wa al Nihayah which would mean the beginning and the end that speaks of Asma who is the sister of Aisha. This is a pretty large amount of work but it contains certain narratives that state this Asma's age in comparison to Aisha's. She was 10 years older.

    Asma, Aishas sister is supposed have died in the 73rd year of Hijri which is reported by a scholar in traditional islamic circles had more respect in his sophisticated scholarship of Islam even in comparison to historian and scholar Ibn Kathir. His name was Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani. He reported in his book called Fine Tuning. 100-73 = 27. So at the time of Hijri, Asma was 27 years old. Which would mean Aisha was 17 years old. So this marriage which would have taken place in the 1st or 2nd Hijra makes Aisha 18 or 19. Is that another contradiction?

    These 3 things a quite well known. And is nothing compared to a lot more one could speak of when it comes to ahadith. Now lets take a look at the Qur'an.

    What does the Quran say? Please follow this and understand the logical representation of this subject.

    1. You can only give inheritance to a mature person.

    And do not give the immature ones your money for which God has made you overseers, and spend on them from it and clothe them, and speak to them in goodness. – Quran 4:5

    Immaturity is described by the Arabic word Shufaha. Which the child is yet not ready to take up responsibility of managing his or her finances. This is speaking of an orphan under your care but yet it defines when a child can inherit, an age where s/he is mature enough to manage it.

    2. So when do you test the child for maturity?

    Quran calls it Balaghul Nikaha.

    And test the orphans when they reach age of marriage, then, if you have determined from them comprehension/maturity/age of marriage, then give them their money, - Excerpt – Quran 4:6

    Maturity, the age of marriage is tied to your ability to manage your own finances and inheritance.

    3. Rushdan, in 4:6 means sound judgement. Thus, the age of marriage is also defined by sound judgement.

    Thus, there are easily four criteria for the age of marriage.

    1. Not Shufaha or immature, childish.

    2. Balaghul Nikaha or the age of marriage which is synonymous in classical Arabic to maturity.

    3. Sound judgement.

    4. Mature enough to inherit their wealth and manage their finances.

    What age do you think a girl can fit into this criterion? 9? 12? 19? 20? You decide.

    Another reference to maturity is full physical growth as in Quran 40:67 where Ashaddakum from the root Shadad means full physical growth. So you must know when your child is full grown.

    I have seen many silly arguments of people pick only one of these points to make their case which is pretty childish. For example, one person asks “So you decided you can marry off your daughter because she reached full growth at the age of 12?”. Well you cherry picked. Above I have given four criteria as well.

    Another verse many have used taken off the internet is Quran chapter 65 verse 4. I say this before anyone brings this out with all due respect. Let me give an old translation so that its not modern scholarship.

    Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the

    prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses [it is the same]: for those who carry [life within their wombs], their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. – Quran 65:4

    There are some translations which would say “Not yet menstruated” instead of “No courses”.

    Take a holistic approach. Not just one cherry picked verse that suits your personal sentiment. Quran is onne book.

    This verse is speaking of women who go through a divorce where it stipulates certain conditions before the lady is to leave the premises where they had their marital life. So please understand that first, you are married because you are already fully grown, mature enough to manage your finances, balaghul nikaha and so forth. You are already married meeting these criteria and now you are going through a divorce.

    Chapter 65 verse 4

    1. Premise: In case of divorce (To get a divorce, you are already married. To be married, you are already old enough as spelled out earlier)

    2. Wa allathi ya ishna minal maheedhi. Those who are done with their menstruation. Which means Ya Ishna, your menstruations are over. This is menopause. For them, at the time of a divorce their interim period is three months.

    3. Wa allathi yaa hidhna means the ones who have not menstruated. Now this is the verse a lot of people use to insult the whole system of islam. But it’s a cheap trick. You will understand why.

    It does not say “Never menstruated” and in classical Arabic this could never ever mean one who has not achieved puberty. It is completely illogical. As a non-muslim you could use this this maliciously to insult but also as a Muslim you could use this for your perverted intentions. But none of this is logical if you take the context of the Quran and you should see that its illogical.

    You are talking of a girl who is already married because she has reached the right ripe age of marriage. Balagul nikaha. Now she is going through a divorce. And now she cannot be thrown out of where she is living for three months. Both, those who don’t get periods and those who have not got their periods yet after the decision is made, whoever they are cannot be sent out of their abode for 3 months AFTER THE DIVORCE IS CONFIRMED.

    4. Hamal or pregnant women if you find them to be must be allowed fully to stay in the same premises until the delivery.

    This is all about a divorce and pregnancy. These are laws set for all times.

    According to ahadith and history, Aishas age is so disputed. Again, ACCORDING TO AHADITH, she cannot be such a young, child-bride. And it contradicts the Quran.

    Peace.
     
  2. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    I don't even understand why this is an issue, much less a debate. It all happened 1400 years ago, nobody knows the details.

    The big picture is easy to see. Muhammad was a feminist. Probably due to the influence of his first wife. He treated women with respect, far beyond the other guys in his culture. And he was a top warrior king, so he could make that stick.

    He certainly didn't need to marry little girls to get some young stuff. He could well afford hot and cold running slave girls. Their fathers would gift him with their daughters, for whatever he wanted. Women weren't valued as much of anything more than livestock until Muhammad put his foot down and declared them persons.

    Or, more likely, Khadijah put her foot down. And Muhammad knew she was right.
    Tom
     
  3. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.
     
  4. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    If the age is 6 and 9 it make Muhammad look like a child molester by modern standards. If she was that young it undermine his image for those that take exceptions to such ages. It is false then it undermines the reliability of hadith which for many is dogma and doctrine
     
    #4 Shad, Jan 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
  5. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    I can still remember complete lines of French I learned at age 5 in French immersion. Point being even at a young age someone can remember something with little issue. I would add I hated French immersion yet lines and even songs in French are stuck in my head after all these years. Aisha remembering something she seemed to have cared about from age 5 is not unusual.
     
    #5 Shad, Jan 3, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Yep. Of course. And its statutory rape.

    Great. But you have missed to note that the hadith states Jariah. A Jariah is from 7 to maybe around 13. Its stated there in the o.p. i have not defined the age because it's a basic understanding in arabic so sorry about that.

    But you can go ahead and change it to 5 if you like and make that as a standard for your calculation of her age. Please go ahead. It will still contradict Aisha having been 6 and 9.

    Cheers.
     
  7. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    My point was about determining memory recall of something learned at a young age not her actual age. Ergo humans are capable of remembering something learned at a young age and recall it later in life. If I can do it at age 5 she can too. So if you have a wide age range memory recall is a poor criteria to use as it is subjective.

    Remember your own question asked "what age do you think she would have been in order to remember a verse of the Quran and to remember the day it was revealed or time period in Mecca?" I address the memory recall point that age itself does not determine if a memory is created then recalled or not.
     
    #7 Shad, Jan 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2020
  8. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    What you missed it's not the age of memory alone. I explained it above. Read it again.

    Your point is taken.
     
  9. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Irrelevant to my point.

    You point is subjective as you are determining what a "playful child is"
     
  10. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Playful jariah. I explained already.

    Of you wish make it 5 because you insist (though its not). That too, I already said.

    Cheers.
     
  11. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    Sure which is subjective still.

    Again I never said she was 5. I was using an example of memory recall.
     
  12. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Right. So just for your calculation, use 5.
     
  13. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    I am not calculating anything. I was using an example that is hypothetical. This is the 3rd time I have had to tell you this. Figure it out and move on.
     
  14. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    Okay. Dont calculate. Thanks for the contribution.
    Cheers.
     
  15. Shad

    Shad Veteran Member

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    No problem.

    I agree with a general point that ahadith are not reliable. Hence calculations based on unreliable source means nothing.
     
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  16. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

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    Those who recognize Quran as Word of God, would not attribute immorality to the Messenger of God. Those who do not believe in Quran and Muhammad, do not have a problem attributing immorality to Muhammad such as marriage with a child. In fact those who do not believe in Muhammad, tend to willingly attribute immorality to him. You can not prove or disprove age of Aisha.
     
  17. firedragon

    firedragon Well-Known Member

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    For islam, I believe the age of Aisha is completely irrelevant because the Quran defines the balaghul nikah very clearly and I have quoted and explained the Quran.

    The post is addressing those who make a big deal of it and makes clear that it's so contradicting that its senseless to delve in believing this was a child marriage. Even if you throw away the Quran as most people do, it's still senseless.
     
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