AHHH! The beauty of Socialism unplugged!

[David1967]

I'm a Moderate, but Here is the dictionary definition for the sake of this discussion.

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

 

[Kenny]

Humanity still have to test socialism, there were only hints so far,

Humanity has already tested socialism. Our first settlers in the US tested socialism and concluded it doesn't work,.

 

[Kenny]

Good luck getting a coherent answer from any of the conservatives in this thread.

That is an answer?

 

[sooda]

Nope! Just ignore Venezuela and Cuba and repeat.

Do you know anything about the history of VZ or Cuba?

 

[sooda]

As a European I have a really hard time understanding why US people hate socialism. I much prefer a nationalised health service, rail service, electric board and prison system. I can't really think of a system much worse than trying to make profit from sick people or criminals, but there you go.

Its just ignorance......

 

[Kenny]

Do you know anything about the history of VZ or Cuba?

I lived in Venezuela and my wife is from there so, yes.

I have friends in Cuba, so yes.

 

[sooda]

I lived in Venezuela and my wife is from there so, yes.

I have friends in Cuba, so yes.

VZ had a lot of bad leadership for decades before Chavez.. and Cuba's leadership was corrupt and criminal.

 

[Kenny]

VZ had a lot of bad leadership for decades before Chavez.. and Cuba's leadership was corrupt and criminal.

Didn't change the message of socialism nor the results of its implementation.

 

[sooda]

Didn't change the message of socialism nor the results of its implementation.

The huge and ever widening gap between the people and the elite drove them to socialism.

 

[Kenny]

The huge and ever widening gap between the people and the elite drove them to socialism.

Wrong. It may be another straw on the camel's back but it goes much deeper than just "they have more money than I do".

If that were the case, US would have been a socialist country a long time ago.

 

[sun rise]

In essence it does

So a Congressional pay raise after 10 years is socialism in action.

 

[sooda]

Wrong. It may be another straw on the camel's back but it goes much deeper than just "they have more money than I do".

If that were the case, US would have been a socialist country a long time ago.

Why Did Venezuelans Elect Hugo Chavez President ...
www.historyhit.com/why-did-venezuelans-elect...
But in 1998 he was elected to the position of president through democratic means and was hugely popular with ordinary Venezuelans. To understand how he became so popular it is helpful to consider events in the country in the two-and-a-half decades preceding the 1998 election. The Arab oil embargo and the rise and fall of global petroleum prices

 

[sun rise]

Politics has certainly taken on a different hew. No Statesmen. But, while the right may be confused, the left are not confused, they have gone insane.

The right is not confused. It's marching to the trumpets of Emperor Trump who can do no wrong.

 

[sun rise]

I'm a Moderate, but Here is the dictionary definition for the sake of this discussion.

so·cial·ism
/ˈsōSHəˌlizəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

What is the difference between a socialist and a democratic socialist?
The key difference between socialism and democratic socialism is that democratic socialists don't want the government to own the means of production and socialists do. They believe that certain general social goods like health care should be run by the government, but otherwise support capitalism.

 

[David1967]

What is the difference between a socialist and a democratic socialist?
The key difference between socialism and democratic socialism is that democratic socialists don't want the government to own the means of production and socialists do. They believe that certain general social goods like health care should be run by the government, but otherwise support capitalism.

Thanks for the info. That is useful.

 

[Willamena]

Humanity has already tested socialism. Our first settlers in the US tested socialism and concluded it doesn't work,.

The Inca made it work pretty good ...before they were slaughtered by Capitalists.

 

[Kenny]

Why Did Venezuelans Elect Hugo Chavez President ...
www.historyhit.com/why-did-venezuelans-elect...
But in 1998 he was elected to the position of president through democratic means and was hugely popular with ordinary Venezuelans. To understand how he became so popular it is helpful to consider events in the country in the two-and-a-half decades preceding the 1998 election. The Arab oil embargo and the rise and fall of global petroleum prices

Did you read the article... yes, it did mention a change of petroleum prices, but that hardly was the issue. It was contributing to problems but that wasn't the issue.

The problem with American historians is that they don't talk to the people of Venezuela, though he did get some things right.

This was one of the major factor:

"And that was not the only problem the country was facing; Venezuelans began looking back at the tenure of Pérez – who had left office in 1979 – and found evidence of corruption and wasteful spending among individuals, including the paying of relatives to undertake certain contracts."

The nationalizing (socialism) of the oil was also a major problem. Whereas private ownership caused schools, retirement funds, employment and the latest technology implementation, nationalization caused siphoning off of monies, misuse of finances, breakdown of equipment etc.

Then, with year after year of promise and year after year there was graft, theft and self enrichment (much like the pork barrel spending of today and the favoring of those who support those who are elected), graft, theft, off shore accounts and the promises that were never kept, people finally got mad and upset. I would call it Capitalism without a heart.

Certainly, because of the graft, theft and favoritism, the rich got richer at the expense of the poor.

So, in comes Chavez with "take from the rich, give to the poor, I will give you housing, food and I will take care of you" message. (Much like today in the US). After decades people were ripe for the message.

Results? Everybody got poorer along with the rich. Free petroleum for Cuba, Exportation of socialism/communism. And those in charge get richer (including the military).

 

[sooda]

Did you read the article... yes, it did mention a change of petroleum prices, but that hardly was the issue. It was contributing to problems but that wasn't the issue.

The problem with American historians is that they don't talk to the people of Venezuela, though he did get some things right.

This was one of the major factor:

"And that was not the only problem the country was facing; Venezuelans began looking back at the tenure of Pérez – who had left office in 1979 – and found evidence of corruption and wasteful spending among individuals, including the paying of relatives to undertake certain contracts."

The nationalizing (socialism) of the oil was also a major problem. Whereas private ownership caused schools, retirement funds, employment and the latest technology implementation, nationalization caused siphoning off of monies, misuse of finances, breakdown of equipment etc.

Then, with year after year of promise and year after year there was graft, theft and self enrichment (much like the pork barrel spending of today and the favoring of those who support those who are elected), graft, theft, off shore accounts and the promises that were never kept, people finally got mad and upset. I would call it Capitalism without a heart.

Certainly, because of the graft, theft and favoritism, the rich got richer at the expense of the poor.

So, in comes Chavez with "take from the rich, give to the poor, I will give you housing, food and I will take care of you" message. (Much like today in the US). After decades people were ripe for the message.

Results? Everybody got poorer along with the rich. Free petroleum for Cuba, Exportation of socialism/communism. And those in charge get richer (including the military).

I told you that vs had poor leadership before Chavez .

 

[Kenny]

The Inca made it work pretty good ...before they were slaughtered by Capitalists.

Hardly.

"The Inca society was rigidly constructed along hierarchical lines of power and privilege. The Incan ruling class, below the Inca Sun-god king, provided the membership for the bureaucratic administrators, the military officer corps, the priests and scholars. Beneath them were the Inca peasants, herdsmen and artisans; they also were used to settle newly conquered lands to assure Incan dominance over the defeated populations. And below them were the slaves, which according to Inca legend had originally been condemned to death, but out of mercy were reprieved from extermination to be lowly laborers in perpetual bondage."

I'm not sure I would call that "pretty good" along with their child sacrifices. Then again,

I told you that vs had poor leadership before Chavez .

And I told you that, regardless, it doesn't change socialism or the implementation of the same. They got out of the frying pan an into the fire.

 

[David1967]

What is the difference between a socialist and a democratic socialist?
The key difference between socialism and democratic socialism is that democratic socialists don't want the government to own the means of production and socialists do. They believe that certain general social goods like health care should be run by the government, but otherwise support capitalism.

I think it would be useful to distinguish between what type of socialism being addressed since there are definite relevant differences between the two.